2020 Draft

[payitforward]

nate -- that's the value of "tiers" (one of them anyway). Nobody can dissect fine enough to *know* that player A is the very best player available. If the phrase has utility, a better use of it would be to say: don't take someone whom you believe isn't as good as someone else (i.e. isn't on the same tier), because he fits a "need."

Needs change -- fast.

[WizarDynasty]

Btw, Rui (you like Rui) & Clarke were teammates at Gonzaga. Clarke way outplayed Rui there. & he ran circles around him in their rookie year. It wasn't close. Have you even looked at the numbers? Let alone actually watched Clarke back then or now?

Oh I see, so Clarke had a way better hip bend that Rui when they both played at Gonzago. Let me check it out, I highly doubt it.

Did Thabeet have great hip bend while dribbling or playing defense and being able to maintain it? Let me answer that question for you later on, I am kind of busy right now. That more important than even standing reach by the way. The point is, if player doesn't have a key attribute, then you avoid him. That's what history should teach you. HIp bend is key attribute that you use your eyes to evaluate.

If you here any analyst start using the word "hip bend" then you know they stole it from me.
you don't draft powerforward who standing reach is less than 9'3 point blank period unless they are zion williamson and even he has questions marks like blake griffin not being able to carry a team on his shoulders.

[doclinkin]

If you here any analyst start using the word "hip bend" then you know they stole it from me.

Oh lord. Scouts and coaches and analysts discuss it all the time. They say a player does or does not 'Sit low in their stance'. It is basic basketball, as common in defensive coaching as keeping active hands or staying on your toes not your heels. You're entertaining when you pop back up but don't get all excitable and messianic about this years new buzz phrase you just decided on. You used to call it bowlegged. Now it's hip bend. All it is, is a 'defensive stance'. There's about a hundred years of coaching on the topic.

[WizarDynasty]

If you here any analyst start using the word "hip bend" then you know they stole it from me.

Oh lord. Scouts and coaches and analysts discuss it all the time. They say a player does or does not 'Sit low in their stance'. It is basic basketball, as common in defensive coaching as keeping active hands or staying on your toes not your heels. You're entertaining when you pop back up but don't get all excitable and messianic about this years new buzz phrase you just decided on. You used to call it bowlegged. Now it's hip bend. All it is, is a 'defensive stance'. There's about a hundred years of coaching on the topic.

Since you are an old guy like me, let me add the part you are missing. Maintaining a deep hip bend while moving for an extended period.

There are two elements, deep hip bend is one element..."and please don't confuse with a slight hip bend. A deep hip bend and moving at the same time for long periods time.
So moving for long periods of time, and deep hip bend. ...When you combine these two ideas, you will see things you haven't seen before. Hope that helps. Again, not just slightly bending your hips,....deep hip bend. And not just standing still and deeply bending your hips, but moving for long periods of time.

HOpe that helps.

[doclinkin]

Alright Wiznasty, welcome home with your crazyass. Happy halloween.

[long suffrin' boulez fan]

Obi Toppin seems to me like Thomas Bryant Jr. Jr.

All the same strengths, all the same weeknesses.

I hope we stay away from him

[nate33]

Obi Toppin seems to me like Thomas Bryant Jr. Jr.

All the same strengths, all the same weeknesses.

I hope we stay away from him

Yeah, he might be a decent player, but he's a real bad fit for us. Hopefully, someone will pick him in the top 8, bumping down a more suitable prospect to us. Toppin and perhaps Killian Hayes are really the only two guys in the top 10 that won't help us much.

[nate33]

Zeke Nnaji popped up a few times on my searches for productive freshmen. But he showed up smallest against the biggest competition. Couldn't score against any team with size up front, dropping well below his scoring average against Isaiah Stewart and Okongwu, suffered against Tyler Bey. He did rebound well against them though, so there's that.

Then there's this:

Just remember the days when we had guys like McGee, Vesely, Ramos, and Blatche as our hope for the future.
Load up late first and early 2nd rounders and scoop these players up.

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

WizD was also pounding the table for us to draft Robert Williams, and he believed D'Andre Aayton would be a generational talent. He did acknowledge that Troy Brown was a better pick than Zaire Smith, and that Mitchell Robinson might be a steal in the 2nd round.

[payitforward]

Btw, Rui (you like Rui) & Clarke were teammates at Gonzaga. Clarke way outplayed Rui there. & he ran circles around him in their rookie year. It wasn't close. Have you even looked at the numbers? Let alone actually watched Clarke back then or now?

Oh I see, so Clarke had a way better hip bend that Rui when they both played at Gonzago. Let me check it out, I highly doubt it....

Well... you are consistent!

But, tell me something: do results matter? Here are the 2 players in their last year at Gonzaga:

Per 40 minutes:
Scoring:
-- Clarke 24.1 points on 14.4 shots & 6.0 FTAs
-- Rui 26.1 :points on 16.7 shots & 7.9 FTAs
(i.e. Rui turned 2.3 more shots & 1.9 more FTAs into 2 more points)
Thus TS% -- Clarke .699 / Rui .639

The rest:
Rebounds -- Clarke 12.2 / Rui 8.6
Assists -- Clarke 2.7 / Rui 2.0
Steals -- Clarke 1.7 / Rui 1.3
Blocks -- Clarke 4.5 / Rui 1.0
Turnovers -- Clarke 2.2 / Rui 2.4
Fouls -- Clarke 3.0 / Rui 2.6

Not much ambiguity about who was the better player last year in college. As to how they played as NBA rookies... let's just say that the differences were FAR greater & ALL in Clarke's favor.

It's one thing to value "hip bend," "standng reach," etc. It's another thing entirely to imagine that they are more important than results!

I'll ask again. Is that what you think? Results don't matter?

[payitforward]

I don't think Toppin is much like Bryant, but I agree not to want him.

I just did another session of looking at Tyler Bey -- somebody is going to get a tremendous steal taking that kid near the bottom of R1 / top R2.

Imagine making pcbothwei's trade of 9 for 14/26/47. Now imagine trading 14 to the Mavs for 18/31. Buy #34 & #58 from Elton Brand while he still has a job.

We could get Nesmith (maybe even Precious), Stewart (or Bane if we did pick Achiuwa), Bey, Pritchard, Paul Reed, one of Skylar Mays or Nate Hinton, & either the other one of those two or Sam Merrill. Then pick up Nathan Knight undrafted.

We couldn't accommodate 8 rookies, obviously -- I mean only to illustrate how much value there seems to be in this draft's R2.

Yet, we do need a pair of 2-way players (say Merrill & Knight), & we can certainly accommodate 3 rookies on our roster -- even after signing Bertans, extending Bonga & giving Mathews a regular contract -- & we'd still have room to use 1 of our exceptions (or both if we waived Schofield, which would be sensible). So, my picture is exaggerated but not overwhelmingly.

Edit: include Wagner in the Boston trade. Make it 4 rookies + the 2-way players.

[doclinkin]

Been saying on TBey. He's a Shawn 'Matrix' Marion level of athlete. Whatever he does is on raw athleticism and effort, so his upside when properly channeled and trained could be far higher than more polished athletes with similar statistics (Saddiq Bey for instance). He'd be fun to watch develop.

[doclinkin]

I will be the outlier on the board to say Obi Toppin would be a joy to watch as a Wizard. He does exactly the opposite thing as Rui Hachimura: hits outside shots or dunks on interior players. Nothing in the middle. And he passes. And can rack steals at times when he needs to turn it up a notch. Yeah he has stiff hips, but played the role he was given by his coach to carry the team to a 20 win streak, losing only 2 games all year. If he fell to the Wizards I'd bet they would snatch him in a heartbeat. And we would hear a dozen offers from teams looking to move up or sell future draft picks. He sells tickets and raises our profile with national games and referees whistles and free agent interest and trade proposals. Defense wins championships, offense draws attention.

Also if we decide to move on from Scott Brooks I would love to steal Dayton coach Anthony Grant to run our squad.

[WizarDynasty]

I will be the outlier on the board to say Obi Toppin would be a joy to watch as a Wizard. He does exactly the opposite thing as Rui Hachimura: hits outside shots or dunks on interior players. Nothing in the middle. And he passes. And can rack steals at times when he needs to turn it up a notch. Yeah he has stiff hips, but played the role he was given by his coach to carry the team to a 20 win streak, losing only 2 games all year. If he fell to the Wizards I'd bet they would snatch him in a heartbeat. And we would hear a dozen offers from teams looking to move up or sell future draft picks. He sells tickets and raises our profile with national games and referees whistles and free agent interest and trade proposals. Defense wins championships, offense draws attention.

Also if we decide to move on from Scott Brooks I would love to steal his coach Anthony Grant to run our squad.

Yeah he is not falling to us. Bad hips--- hip offensive hip bend when backing down is slightly above average to be honest. https://youtu.be/TbFyQBtLkVc?t=32 It's his defensive hip bend that is bad and moving laterally that is below average. but quick twitch second jump that is explosive. And he is long. Definitely has 9'3 standing reach. He effortless touches the rim. I will take him over Okongwu (marquis chriss clone = same standing reach for small forward as Okongwu 8'10 https://youtu.be/xSNKywg_G_k?t=153), and even Wiseman who is softer than even McGee inside the paint.

[WizarDynasty]

Been saying on TBey. He's a Shawn 'Matrix' Marion level of athlete. Whatever he does is on raw athleticism and effort, so his upside when properly channeled and trained could be far higher than more polished athletes with similar statistics (Saddiq Bey for instance). He'd be fun to watch develop.

Tyler Bey is a center stuck inside a shooting guards body-- what's worse.. a shooting guard with poor standing reach and poor hip bend even for a center. It's kind of hard to have a shooting guard body, that has worse hip bend than the top big men in this draft.
Post defense is about outstretched arms and if you have to leave your feet and jump 7 inches just to reach a 9'3 standing reach, you are at disadvantage to a true post guy who has standing reach of 9'3.

[doclinkin]

At this point in the eternal offseason of 2020 I love everybody. I feel like if we had every pick in this particular draft, and the ability to stick them all on the roster or our GLeague team, we could assemble a perennial conference championship contender. That's not how I feel about every year, and I don't think it is a result of the extra long offseason. But still, that's how I see it. Granted, you can't build a championship team without a superstar, and we don't have one, and there are very few routes to get one. But stockpiling talent for smart trades, and accumulating draft picks for future luck are of course the way to go. There are more smart picks in this years draft that could add depth to the bench on any winning team in the league, that this is one of those years where I feel like we will get good picks wherever we land. Trading up or trading down or seeing who falls to us.

[doclinkin]

Been saying on TBey. He's a Shawn 'Matrix' Marion level of athlete. Whatever he does is on raw athleticism and effort, so his upside when properly channeled and trained could be far higher than more polished athletes with similar statistics (Saddiq Bey for instance). He'd be fun to watch develop.

Tyler Bey is a center stuck inside a shooting guards body-- what's worse.. a shooting guard with poor standing reach and poor hip bend even for a center. It's kind of hard to have a shooting guard body, that has worse hip bend than the top big men in this draft.

You're wrong about his reach. His arms go on forever. He can touch the floor while barely bending forward. He's one of thsoe players who can steal the ball off the floor on the dribble. Not just on the bounce. Also about his legs. He has the defensive skill of being able to swivel his lower half to run while still facing his man, arms out. It's unorthodox but clearly works for him if you look at his defensive stats. He's one of those players whose athleticism allows him to both drop back and still cover the outside shot, his close outs are rubberband quick. Exactly what we need at the 3 spot to cover for our perimeter and interior deficiencies.

[nate33]

Been saying on TBey. He's a Shawn 'Matrix' Marion level of athlete. Whatever he does is on raw athleticism and effort, so his upside when properly channeled and trained could be far higher than more polished athletes with similar statistics (Saddiq Bey for instance). He'd be fun to watch develop.

Tyler Bey is a center stuck inside a shooting guards body-- what's worse.. a shooting guard with poor standing reach and poor hip bend even for a center. It's kind of hard to have a shooting guard body, that has worse hip bend than the top big men in this draft.

You're wrong about his reach. His arms go on forever. He can touch the floor while barely bending forward. Also about his legs. He has the defensive skill of being able to swivel his lower half to run while still facing his man, arms out. It's unorthodox but clearly works for him if you look at his defensive stats. He's one of those players whose athleticism allows him to both drop back and still cover the outside shot, his close outs are rubberband quick. Exactly what we need at the 3 spot to cover for our perimeter and interior deficiencies.

Read on Twitter

I suspect that he tanked the standing reach to boost his vertical leap like Harrison Barnes did. My guess is that his standing reach is 2 inches higher and his leap is 2 inches shorter.

[doclinkin]

Tyler Bey is a center stuck inside a shooting guards body-- what's worse.. a shooting guard with poor standing reach and poor hip bend even for a center. It's kind of hard to have a shooting guard body, that has worse hip bend than the top big men in this draft.

You're wrong about his reach. His arms go on forever. He can touch the floor while barely bending forward. Also about his legs. He has the defensive skill of being able to swivel his lower half to run while still facing his man, arms out. It's unorthodox but clearly works for him if you look at his defensive stats. He's one of those players whose athleticism allows him to both drop back and still cover the outside shot, his close outs are rubberband quick. Exactly what we need at the 3 spot to cover for our perimeter and interior deficiencies.

Read on Twitter

I suspect that he tanked the standing reach to boost his vertical leap like Harrison Barnes did. My guess is that his standing reach is 2 inches higher and his leap is 2 inches shorter.

Watch on YouTube

His reach is not hurting him at all...

To put it in perspective, you're talking a 7'1" wingspan put on the body of a guy with the max vertical of Nate Robinson. A small forward who regularly held position against centers, and held them under their averages. His build is not going to be a problem in the NBA. Early maybe he gets foul trouble from refs for reaching too much or jumping too quickly, but his instincts are good and he sees the action well, he will adjust.

[nate33]

If we could trade down from #9 to land Achiuwa and Bey, I'd be very, very happy. Two athletic freaks who love to defend and rebound? That's just what this team needs.

[doclinkin]

If we could trade down from #9 to land Achiuwa and Bey, I'd be very, very happy. Two athletic freaks who love to defend and rebound? That's just what this team needs.

Lob City, East. That would be fun. Fast breaks started by steals, stops, blocks and flying rebounds to outlet passes. John Wall would be as happy as a pig in shxt to have that sort of talent filling the lanes to finish.