Political Roundtable Part XXV

[I_Like_Dirt]

I'm with you Dirt money, the past week or so I've been saying the criminal justice system needs to eb harsher and enforced far better, and prisoners should not be allowed to vote. You won't hear any argument here on that.

The point of this debate is these guys should not have even been here, if we can get them out and prevent the alike from coming in, why wouldnt we?

You might agree with me but you've done a poor job of responding to my point, which was that we should be targeting people in the mainstream population that go unpunished for crimes they commit rather than being harsher on those that commit crimes. Harsh on crime doesn't actually prevent crime, is the problem. It's far more complicated than that.

[daoneandonly]

I'm with you Dirt money, the past week or so I've been saying the criminal justice system needs to eb harsher and enforced far better, and prisoners should not be allowed to vote. You won't hear any argument here on that.

The point of this debate is these guys should not have even been here, if we can get them out and prevent the alike from coming in, why wouldnt we?

You might agree with me but you've done a poor job of responding to my point, which was that we should be targeting people in the mainstream population that go unpunished for crimes they commit rather than being harsher on those that commit crimes. Harsh on crime doesn't actually prevent crime, is the problem. It's far more complicated than that.

You like to talk down to people just because they disagree with you, that's fine, I'm not that person anymore

Harsh on crime can easily impact crime rate, if someone doesn't fear the repercussions of participating in criminal activity, and they're not an upstanding person, of course they'd be more willing to commit a crime.

Better immigration regulations and dare i say, a wall, can prevent low life people like these MS 13 thugs from getting in. WOn't stop it all together, nothing will, there's no fail proof 100% measure, but it sure as hell would help. And no im not saying everyone that crosses the border is a criminal, most are not, but if done the right way, the opportunity to vet, its better for all

[I_Like_Dirt]

You like to talk down to people just because they disagree with you, that's fine, I'm not that person anymore

Harsh on crime can easily impact crime rate, if someone doesn't fear the repercussions of participating in criminal activity, and they're not an upstanding person, of course they'd be more willing to commit a crime.

Pointing out where you're making straw men and building logical fallacies isn't the same thing as talking down to you. You're not that person anymore? I'm not even sure how to respond to that.

As for harsh on crime impacting crime rate, it can, but it doesn't work the way you're suggesting because criminals aren't committing violent crimes just because they aren't afraid of punishment. They aren't thinking about being caught when they're committing the crimes in question. The evidence in terms of actually reducing crime tends to lean more towards actually preventing crime rather than punishing it. It isn't totally unlike abortion in that sense. Focus on the social issues that result in crime, fix those, and suddenly you have less crime. Punish crime more harshly and you wind up with a lot of people being punished increasingly more severely, nothing more.

[daoneandonly]

You like to talk down to people just because they disagree with you, that's fine, I'm not that person anymore

Harsh on crime can easily impact crime rate, if someone doesn't fear the repercussions of participating in criminal activity, and they're not an upstanding person, of course they'd be more willing to commit a crime.

Pointing out where you're making straw men and building logical fallacies isn't the same thing as talking down to you. You're not that person anymore? I'm not even sure how to respond to that.

As for harsh on crime impacting crime rate, it can, but it doesn't work the way you're suggesting because criminals aren't committing violent crimes just because they aren't afraid of punishment. They aren't thinking about being caught when they're committing the crimes in question. The evidence in terms of actually reducing crime tends to lean more towards actually preventing crime rather than punishing it. It isn't totally unlike abortion in that sense. Focus on the social issues that result in crime, fix those, and suddenly you have less crime. Punish crime more harshly and you wind up with a lot of people being punished increasingly more severely, nothing more.

And the what is the comment about every man's DNA being on file? Strawman? Fallacy? Ridiculous?

So sure citizens commit more crimes than undocumented illegal ones, that means we cant do anything to prevent the latter from committing crimes? As in a wall so we cna have more legal, vetted ways of allowing people in? ICE, to get people that didnt have the sense, desire, patience to try and come in the right way, out of here?

Imagine if just 1/10th of MS 13 were given the boot and a wall made it that much harder for them to re-enter, how much safer and better off would we be?

[dckingsfan]

But why you went the route of saying every man should have their DNA on file makes zero sense.

I'll address the logic of this. Every baby would have its DNA tested. All fathers would then be on the hook to help provide for the child. The only way to do this is if every US citizen agreed to submit their DNA to a registry. Then it would never be about the just the woman involved. The man would immediately be sucked in as well.

I am guessing if this was put in place - objections to abortions would fall very quickly - just saying.

[Wizardspride]

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[gtn130]

Imagine if just 1/10th of MS 13 were given the boot and a wall made it that much harder for them to re-enter, how much safer and better off would we be?

Describe the interactions you've had with MS-13 in your entire life

[daoneandonly]

Imagine if just 1/10th of MS 13 were given the boot and a wall made it that much harder for them to re-enter, how much safer and better off would we be?

Describe the interactions you've had with MS-13 in your entire life

Wouldnt that just be anecdotal though, what does it change? If we can deport MS13 members out of the US, why wouldnt we? Ask that question to the families who have been victimized by the heartless members of this gang.

[pancakes3]

you're equating MS13 members with being undocumented immigrants, and also equating all undocumented immigrants as MS13. you also assume that ICE is the only law enforcement agency capable of deportation.

MS13 is not a new gang, or an especially violent gang compared to other gangs. it's only gaining notoriety because they're a hispanic gang, and fits the political narrative that hispanic immigrants bring crime into our otherwise peaceful country.

it detracts attention from actual drivers of violent crime: poverty, access to guns, and income/social inequality.

[gtn130]

Right, my point is that MS-13 is a nonissue, but it is being propped up by right-wing media (just like the CARAVAN that totally and instantaneously stopped its procession to the US the second the midterms were over. Weird!).

Like how many lives are taken per year by MS-13?

In the Washington region, where a spate of grisly gang slayings drew the attention of the White House, MS-13 killings have fallen from at least 33 in 2016 and 2017 to seven last year, according to interviews with a dozen law enforcement agencies and prosecutors.

And on Long Island, where 26 people were killed by the gang over the same two-year stretch, police say there was one MS-13 slaying in 2018.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/savage-gang-despite-trumps-relentless-rhetoric-ms-13-murders-are-down/2019/02/06/9c6ace98-2662-11e9-81fd-b7b05d5bed90_story.html?noredirect=on&utm_term=.c9217172eb69

MS-13 is not a threat to anyone, and it should absolutely never be a serious consideration for any policy proposal. It's pure right-wing hysteria.

[verbal8]

I have not read it WP. I trust Mueller and the 15 experienced prosecutors who despise Trump to render their legal conclusions. They found no collusion. Mueller concluded his investigation without interference from Trump so no one obstructed the legal process. What more is there to debate?

That is the lie that Barr has perpetrated. The report describes over 100
meetings of Trump campaign officials with Russians. Trump people shared
sensitive polling information with Russians. What the report says was this
behavior did not rise to the standard of a criminal conspiracy which is difficult
to prove.

Didn't the Mueller Report mention that the lying interfered with the investigation of conspiracy?

What Trumpsters never address is the question of whether this
behavior was okay.

What if in mid July of 2020, the presumptive Dem nominee gave a public
address in which they call upon the Chinese to hack the RNC. Following
this suggestion, the Chinese did successfully hack the RNC and then
had discussions with the Dems about the most effective methods and
timing to release this stolen information. Would this be okay?

What if this was all successful and the Dem narrowly won by drawing
an inside straight winning 3 key states unexpectedly. After discovering
the natl security apparatus had decided this was worth looking into
the new president fired the head of the investigation. Would this be okay?

What I don't get is how someone read the report and thinks Trump should be the GOP nominee? Either he was so clueless that his campaign(and administration) were engaged with the Russians. Or he is involved with the Russian interactions, which means he shouldn't be trusted.

[Pointgod]

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I feel like all this outrage about Pelosi is sooo short sighted. Clearly part of the left that’s reactionary. I could be wrong but I believe Pelosi is playing the long game here because moving towards impeachment is an inevitability. Dems want it, Trump wants it but I don’t think it’s going to be the political win that’s Trump thinks.

[daoneandonly]

you're equating MS13 members with being undocumented immigrants, and also equating all undocumented immigrants as MS13. you also assume that ICE is the only law enforcement agency capable of deportation.

MS13 is not a new gang, or an especially violent gang compared to other gangs. it's only gaining notoriety because they're a hispanic gang, and fits the political narrative that hispanic immigrants bring crime into our otherwise peaceful country.

it detracts attention from actual drivers of violent crime: poverty, access to guns, and income/social inequality.

I'm not equating all undocumented folks as MS13 at all, thats what Democrats do to counter any argument or concern the right side (pun intended) tries to make. WHatever the number, these punk kids that murder ppl like its a game should have never been here, and if we can kick their butts back, why wouldnt we?

So poverty and income disparities, is that a rationale now to be a criminal? So lets help ppl so they dont commit crimes? Give them incentive to just be a decent human being?

[dckingsfan]

I feel like all this outrage about Pelosi is sooo short sighted. Clearly part of the left that’s reactionary. I could be wrong but I believe Pelosi is playing the long game here because moving towards impeachment is an inevitability. Dems want it, Trump wants it but I don’t think it’s going to be the political win that’s Trump thinks.

Yep, she is maneuvering the ship through the narrow channel. And Trump keeps slamming his ship into the walls.

And her recent maneuverings have dropped Trump's approval rating a full 1%.

Nicely done Ms. Pelosi.

[I_Like_Dirt]

So poverty and income disparities, is that a rationale now to be a criminal? So lets help ppl so they dont commit crimes? Give them incentive to just be a decent human being?

I mean, that's basically the foundation of the American dream, after all. That a person can fulfill their potential if they take advantage opportunities and succeed and build a wonderful life for themselves. This isn't about handouts. It's about opportunities and removing barriers that are constantly put in place to prevent people from seizing them. This isn't a situation of simple good vs bad. That's almost never actually the case despite the fact that history tends to paint it that way repeatedly because the victors love to write history that way.

[dobrojim]

I have not read it WP. I trust Mueller and the 15 experienced prosecutors who despise Trump to render their legal conclusions. They found no collusion. Mueller concluded his investigation without interference from Trump so no one obstructed the legal process. What more is there to debate?

That is the lie that Barr has perpetrated. The report describes over 100
meetings of Trump campaign officials with Russians. Trump people shared
sensitive polling information with Russians. What the report says was this
behavior did not rise to the standard of a criminal conspiracy which is difficult
to prove. What Trumpsters never address is the question of whether this
behavior was okay.

What if in mid July of 2020, the presumptive Dem nominee gave a public
address in which they call upon the Chinese to hack the RNC. Following
this suggestion, the Chinese did successfully hack the RNC and then
had discussions with the Dems about the most effective methods and
timing to release this stolen information. Would this be okay?

What if this was all successful and the Dem narrowly won by drawing
an inside straight winning 3 key states unexpectedly. After discovering
the natl security apparatus had decided this was worth looking into
the new president fired the head of the investigation. Would this be okay?

I don’t want any foreign entity interfering in our elections. I think most D’s agree with you and others here that Trump obstructed an investigation and or colluded with the Russians. I understand that position and so the D’s should file Articles of Impeachment asap. What are they waiting for?

The answer to your question is actually kinda easy. They are waiting for elected Republicans
to start behaving as though their oath of office was to the Constitution and not
to the GOP. Also, Mueller, who is not a Dem AFAWeKnow, lays all this out for
all to see in the report. The letter from former Fed prosecutors is unlikely to
only consist of Democrats.

[dobrojim]

Trump claims repeatedly to be the most transparent POTUS ever.
He's correct when it comes to his transparently corrupt motives.

[AFM]

He's trans parent like Caitlin Jenner

[dckingsfan]

He's trans parent like Caitlin Jenner

Welcome back!

[TGW]

So poverty and income disparities, is that a rationale now to be a criminal? So lets help ppl so they dont commit crimes? Give them incentive to just be a decent human being?

I mean, that's basically the foundation of the American dream, after all. That a person can fulfill their potential if they take advantage opportunities and succeed and build a wonderful life for themselves. This isn't about handouts. It's about opportunities and removing barriers that are constantly put in place to prevent people from seizing them. This isn't a situation of simple good vs bad. That's almost never actually the case despite the fact that history tends to paint it that way repeatedly because the victors love to write history that way.

According to daoneandonly, rich people are morally good because they don't break the law, and poor people commit crimes because they're evil.

only in the United States does someone have a ridiculous view like that.