2020 Draft

[Ruzious]

If we could trade down from #9 to land Achiuwa and Bey, I'd be very, very happy. Two athletic freaks who love to defend and rebound? That's just what this team needs.

Lob City, East. That would be fun. Fast breaks started by steals, stops, blocks and flying rebounds to outlet passes. John Wall would be as happy as a pig in shxt to have that sort of talent filling the lanes to finish.

It would be interesting to see if defense, rebounding, and explosiveness wins out over half-court perimeter skills. It just might. And we'd have the ability to alternate the frontcourt lineups with Bryant and Bertans and Rui. Kinda reminds me of the Gonzaga frontcourts when they had Clarke and Rui and Tillie - and they had other bigs that could play. Btw, Tillie could be a wild card in this draft.

[nate33]

If we could trade down from #9 to land Achiuwa and Bey, I'd be very, very happy. Two athletic freaks who love to defend and rebound? That's just what this team needs.

Lob City, East. That would be fun. Fast breaks started by steals, stops, blocks and flying rebounds to outlet passes. John Wall would be as happy as a pig in shxt to have that sort of talent filling the lanes to finish.

It would be interesting to see if defense, rebounding, and explosiveness wins out over half-court perimeter skills. It just might. And we'd have the ability to alternate the frontcourt lineups with Bryant and Bertans and Rui. Kinda reminds me of the Gonzaga frontcourts when they had Clarke and Rui and Tillie - and they had other bigs that could play. Btw, Tillie could be a wild card in this draft.

Yes. The team would be a little light on half court ball skills, but they do have the personnel to increase the skill level during crunch time by bringing guys like Bryant and Bertans in. Over the long term, one would hope that Achiuwa, Bey and Hachimura refine their skills so that they become genuine two-way players.

[Jamaaliver]

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[Jamaaliver]

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[payitforward]

Been saying on TBey. He's a Shawn 'Matrix' Marion level of athlete. Whatever he does is on raw athleticism and effort, so his upside when properly channeled and trained could be far higher than more polished athletes with similar statistics (Saddiq Bey for instance). He'd be fun to watch develop.

Plus, his numbers are way better than Saddiq's, aren't they?

As scorers they were virtually identical in points & efficiency -- though of course they did their scoring in quite different ways. TBey's TS% is marginally higher, but it's trivial really.

But, SBey collected 5.6 rebounds per 40 minutes, while TBey lapped him & more with 12.5. On the rest of the productivity stuff (assists, steals, blocks, turnovers & fouls) the two guys were overall about the same. I think both of them are regarded as good defenders.

I can't see a way to regard Saddiq as a better prospect than Tyler.

No, that's not true -- Saddiq is 14 months younger than Tyler. That's in his favor. Still, if I had to bet on one of these two guys being a better overall NBA player than the other, my money would be on Tyler Bey.

[TGW]

Much like Brandon Clarke last year, tankathon is basically saying Tyler Bey is a statistical beast.

[WizarDynasty]

Much like Brandon Clarke last year, tankathon is basically saying Tyler Bey is a statistical beast.

Sorry.. Clarke and at t bey are not marion clones not even close. Look at S marion rookie year hip bend. Its how you move, and standing reach. This board loves guys with twigs for legs.
Twig legs dont have power to maintain hip bends mist of time. I wish someone would post some footage instead of stats against weak competition.

[Ruzious]

Much like Brandon Clarke last year, tankathon is basically saying Tyler Bey is a statistical beast.

Sorry.. Clarke and at t bey are not marion clones not even close. Look at S marion rookie year hip bend. Its how you move, and standing reach. This board loves guys with twigs for legs.
Twig legs dont have power to maintain hip bends mist of time. I wish someone would post some footage instead of stats against weak competition.

Actually, Marion was criticized for his skinny legs when he was in college, but he got much bigger and stronger in the NBA, and he was a spectacular athlete called Matrix regardless of knee bend, hip bend, finger bend, mind bend, or any other kind of bend. And tbh, when I watch Bey defend, he clearly does have fluid hips - which allow him to defend on the perimeter and make defensive switches. See the video where he took on 3 players at once while defending in transition, and was able to block the shot.

[doclinkin]

Much like Brandon Clarke last year, tankathon is basically saying Tyler Bey is a statistical beast.

Sorry.. Clarke and at t bey are not marion clones not even close. Look at S marion rookie year hip bend. Its how you move, and standing reach. This board loves guys with twigs for legs.
Twig legs dont have power to maintain hip bends mist of time. I wish someone would post some footage instead of stats against weak competition.

Shawn Marion UNLV skinny legs:

https://www.gettyimages.no/detail/news-photo/forward-shawn-marion-of-the-unlv-runnin-rebels-in-action-news-photo/364868

But you are right that highlights only show part of the picture.

[pcbothwel]

Been saying on TBey. He's a Shawn 'Matrix' Marion level of athlete. Whatever he does is on raw athleticism and effort, so his upside when properly channeled and trained could be far higher than more polished athletes with similar statistics (Saddiq Bey for instance). He'd be fun to watch develop.

Plus, his numbers are way better than Saddiq's, aren't they?

As scorers they were virtually identical in points & efficiency -- though of course they did their scoring in quite different ways. TBey's TS% is marginally higher, but it's trivial really.

But, SBey collected 5.6 rebounds per 40 minutes, while TBey lapped him & more with 12.5. On the rest of the productivity stuff (assists, steals, blocks, turnovers & fouls) the two guys were overall about the same. I think both of them are regarded as good defenders.

I can't see a way to regard Saddiq as a better prospect than Tyler.

No, that's not true -- Saddiq is 14 months younger than Tyler. That's in his favor. Still, if I had to bet on one of these two guys being a better overall NBA player than the other, my money would be on Tyler Bey.

I've said for awhile that everyone was on the wrong Bey-Train. I think Saddiq's playmaking a very overrated and I think Tyler is gonna be a higher floor defender and rebounder day 1.... That said, there are real concerns about him.
- As WizD alluded to, he is really frail. Look at his hips, knees, wrist, shoulders... I have real concern about him holding additional weight.
- Freak athlete and works hard, but his explosiveness goes from Elite to just good when he gets contact.
- His coordination is average. He seems like Crash 2.0 in that he constantly falling into people and his feet get crossed up. It also shows up with his hands, he fumbles the ball a lot for a wing.
- His vision is only average. Combined with his poor ball handling, he can get flustered when he doesn't see the help defender coming for a double team and sorta throws it out wild to his teammates. Very risky.

Again, I like him (Similar to Paul Reed)... but I have him closer to 25 than 15-20.

[WizarDynasty]

Much like Brandon Clarke last year, tankathon is basically saying Tyler Bey is a statistical beast.

Sorry.. Clarke and at t bey are not marion clones not even close. Look at S marion rookie year hip bend. Its how you move, and standing reach. This board loves guys with twigs for legs.
Twig legs dont have power to maintain hip bends mist of time. I wish someone would post some footage instead of stats against weak competition.

Shawn Marion UNLV skinny legs:

https://www.gettyimages.no/detail/news-photo/forward-shawn-marion-of-the-unlv-runnin-rebels-in-action-news-photo/364868

But you are right that highlights only show part of the picture.

THis is shawn marion 2001,
https://youtu.be/fq2MBWUg9Dc?t=105
shooting off dribble. Look at Marion's hip bend when he shoots off the dribble. Tyler has none of this to his game. Trying to help you guys get yours skills up. Shawn Marion played like a small forward. Tyler Bey plays like a center. There just isn't a comparison people.

[payitforward]

I've said for awhile that everyone was on the wrong Bey-Train. I think Saddiq's playmaking a very overrated and I think Tyler is gonna be a higher floor defender and rebounder day 1....

Of course, just because these two guys have the same last name doesn't mean there's any particular reason to compare them!

...That said, there are real concerns about him....

As there are about every prospect.

...Again, I like him (Similar to Paul Reed)... but I have him closer to 25 than 15-20.

I don't think anyone has him as high as #20 -- even #25 is higher than I've usually seen him mocked.

ESPN has him #28 on their "best prospect" list (not mock draft, which is behind a paywall).

[payitforward]

Much like Brandon Clarke last year, tankathon is basically saying Tyler Bey is a statistical beast.

Sorry.. Clarke and at t bey are not marion clones not even close. Look at S marion rookie year hip bend. Its how you move, and standing reach. This board loves guys with twigs for legs.
Twig legs dont have power to maintain hip bends mist of time. I wish someone would post some footage instead of stats against weak competition.

It's just obvious. Pay no attention to what guys actually accomplish on the floor. The games are decided by hip bend. Above all, never confuse what a guy like Clarke accomplishes, say at Gonzaga, against what is (obviously) weak competition. It's nothing like what a really gifted guy like Rui Hachimura accomplished against the tough competition he faced, at, you know, Gonzaga.

Similarly, when a rookie comes into the league, plays heavy minutes, & posts a TS% of 66.3%, how can you imagine that tells you anything compared to what the guy I like (hint -- his name is Rui) accomplishes in posting a TS% of 53.5%.

I mean... how can you compare those two guys in favor of the one who gets 30% more defensive rebounds, 25% more defensive rebounds, & blocks 6 times as many shots when you know his standing reach sucks. I mean... if he had the right standing reach, why... it would be significant -- but doing it without the right standing reach? What could be more obvious? -- It's totally insignificant!

[payitforward]

I don't doubt for a minute that a greater standing reach is preferable to a lesser standing reach.

Where you go wrong, WD, is in concluding -- automatically -- that the above fact means that a player with a greater standing reach is automatically a better player than one with a lesser standing reach.

Over-estimating the significance of a fact is no better than ignoring that fact. Period. True in every facet of life. In fact, your inflexible, non-real-world-based insistence on the absolute value of these factors suffices to make it obvious that you are misleading yourself. It makes your take on these things less valuable rather than more valuable.

There is no royal road; there are no absolutes. All forms of observable information lead to an understanding of the real world.

[WizarDynasty]

Much like Brandon Clarke last year, tankathon is basically saying Tyler Bey is a statistical beast.

Sorry.. Clarke and at t bey are not marion clones not even close. Look at S marion rookie year hip bend. Its how you move, and standing reach. This board loves guys with twigs for legs.
Twig legs dont have power to maintain hip bends mist of time. I wish someone would post some footage instead of stats against weak competition.

It's just obvious. Pay no attention to what guys actually accomplish on the floor. The games are decided by hip bend. Above all, never confuse what a guy like Clarke accomplishes, say at Gonzaga, against what is (obviously) weak competition. It's nothing like what a really gifted guy like Rui Hachimura accomplished against the tough competition he faced, at, you know, Gonzaga.

Similarly, when a rookie comes into the league, plays heavy minutes, & posts a TS% of 66.3%, how can you imagine that tells you anything compared to what the guy I like (hint -- his name is Rui) accomplishes in posting a TS% of 53.5%.

I mean... how can you compare those two guys in favor of the one who gets 30% more defensive rebounds, 25% more defensive rebounds, & blocks 6 times as many shots when you know his standing reach sucks. I mean... if he had the right standing reach, why... it would be significant -- but doing it without the right standing reach? What could be more obvious? -- It's totally insignificant!

Top tier highly value hip bend. Bottom feeders like the wizards and fanbase "us". Don't.
That's why ainge drafted Marion.https://youtu.be/we0myBZ6kv0?t=181


Learn from history. Don't repeat bigman mistakes made by the wizards. I can only lead you to the water.
https://www.nba.com/suns/history/rookie-no.-9
The Pick
The team obviously didn't need to see Marion at summer camp to recognize his athletic ability. After studying film of him during his last season at Nevada-Las Vegas and bringing him in for a predraft workout and interview, the athleticism was obvious. He actually broke a couple of team records during jumping and running drills while visiting.

"He has the athleticism we talked about needing with our team," says Suns Head Coach Danny Ainge. "He has a knack of scoring around the paint. He can defend, he can play the shooting guard spot or he can play small forward."

In the months leading up to the draft, Marion's name wasn't widely known in the media or among fans. It was, however, on the speed dial of scouts and personnel people throughout the NBA. His draft status seemed to skyrocket from late-first-rounder to mid-firstrounder to lottery pick in a matter of weeks as he made the tour around the league for individual workouts.

"He's a guy that we had pegged for a while," Ainge says. "And the more we studied him, the more we talked and the more games we watched of all the players that were available in the draft, he just kept sliding up on everybody's list. Then he comes in here and has a great workout. We had one scout, one of our main scouts, who ranked him number one in the whole draft. So he's an intriguing player."

Intriguing, if not necessarily widely known.

"He may not have been as highly rated (as others in the draft), but that doesn't discourage us from rating players the way we feel they should be drafted," says Suns Executive Vice President and General Manager Bryan Colangelo.

"Our entire scouting department was in agreement that if we were able to get a guy like Shawn Marion (with the ninth pick), we were going to be very happy. We always try to come to a consensus about who is going to fit for us and Shawn Marion was that guy."

After coming to Phoenix in June, Marion began to get some inkling that the Suns were interested.

"Well, they liked me a lot when I came out here to work out," he says. "They had some of the top prospects in the draft up here and I did real well against them, I guess that made a big impression."

Enough of an impression for the Suns to make Marion their highest draft pick — a lottery pick obtained in a 1998 Draft Day deal which also brought Pat Garrity to Phoenix in exchange for Steve Nash — in over a decade. Heady stuff for a 21-year-old junior who passed up a chance to turn pro following his sophomore year at Vincennes University, a small junior college in Indiana, instead deciding to attend UNLV.

[DCZards]

Plus, his numbers are way better than Saddiq's, aren't they?

As scorers they were virtually identical in points & efficiency -- though of course they did their scoring in quite different ways. TBey's TS% is marginally higher, but it's trivial really.

But, SBey collected 5.6 rebounds per 40 minutes, while TBey lapped him & more with 12.5. On the rest of the productivity stuff (assists, steals, blocks, turnovers & fouls) the two guys were overall about the same. I think both of them are regarded as good defenders.

I can't see a way to regard Saddiq as a better prospect than Tyler.

No, that's not true -- Saddiq is 14 months younger than Tyler. That's in his favor. Still, if I had to bet on one of these two guys being a better overall NBA player than the other, my money would be on Tyler Bey.

Saddiq Bey is a much better 3&D prospect than T. Bey. Saddiq is an outstanding 3 pt shooter while T. Bey rarely shoots the three. There were many Colorado games where T. Bey didn’t even attempt a 3 pointer.

[WizarDynasty]

Plus, his numbers are way better than Saddiq's, aren't they?

As scorers they were virtually identical in points & efficiency -- though of course they did their scoring in quite different ways. TBey's TS% is marginally higher, but it's trivial really.

But, SBey collected 5.6 rebounds per 40 minutes, while TBey lapped him & more with 12.5. On the rest of the productivity stuff (assists, steals, blocks, turnovers & fouls) the two guys were overall about the same. I think both of them are regarded as good defenders.

I can't see a way to regard Saddiq as a better prospect than Tyler.

No, that's not true -- Saddiq is 14 months younger than Tyler. That's in his favor. Still, if I had to bet on one of these two guys being a better overall NBA player than the other, my money would be on Tyler Bey.

Saddiq Bey is a much better 3&D prospect than T. Bey. Saddiq is an outstanding 3 pt shooter while T. Bey rarely shoots the three. There were many Colorado games where T. Bey didn’t even attempt a 3 pointer.

I am down with Saddiq if we find mental problems with Achiuwa. But Achiuwa watches video and studies opponents, that's pretty heady. I Think he fits here. I New York Grabs Achiuwa at 8, i would grab Saddiq at 9 based on info i have at this point in time. I would definitely grab him over Okongwu, okoro, haliburton, Vassel, Patrick Williams, or Avdija.

[payitforward]

I'm lost.

Everybody agrees that Shawn Marion was an outstanding player. No one disagrees. & everyone seems to have agreed on that back in '98 as well -- see the text you quote: "His draft status seemed to skyrocket from late-first-rounder to mid-firstrounder to lottery pick in a matter of weeks as he made the tour around the league for individual workouts."

& a video of Michael Jordan scoring 50 points is evidence that you are right about... what exactly?

So, what is your point? That Danny Ainge is great in the draft?

In 2014 (just to grab a single example from a randomly-chosen draft year), Danny took James Young at #17. Where is James today, do you know? Why didn't Danny take Bogdan Bogdanovic? Spencer Dinwiddie? Jerami Grant? Glenn Robinson? Those guys have all turned out better than James Young.

But, really, I mean -- why didn't he take Clint Capela? Or -- since you keep telling us that bottom feeders like the Wiz are so stupid they always miss on guys like Nikola Jokic -- why didn't Danny Ainge take Nikola Jokic?

Why stop there, actually? How come Danny didn't take Rudy Gobert the previous year -- instead of... Lucas Nogueira?

The year before that, why did he take Jared Sullinger & Fab Melo... when Draymond Green was on the board? & Khris Middleton too?

But wait a minute! How about the year before that year? Why did Danny Ainge take MarShon Brooks -- when Jimmy Butler was on the board?

Hey! A couple of years earlier, how come that smart guy Ainge drafted J.R. Giddens (you remember him, don't you?) when he could have taken DeAndre Jordan?

Oh, & the year before that: why did Danny nab Gabe Pruitt in R2 -- he could have had Marc Gasol! But even Ramon Sessions would have been a better choice than Pruitt.

It never stops, does it? I mean, the year before that, Danny drafted Randy Foye. The next guy to go was Rudy Gay. Not only that 40 picks ensued after Danny before someone thought to take Paul Millsap -- who had just led the NCAA in rebounding for 2 years straight! That's every team in the league, btw -- some of them twice! A couple of them 3 times!

Oh, & that previous year! How could Danny take Gerald Green & let Amir Johnson sit undrafted until the 56th spot? That's eleven picks after Lou Williams, btw. Oh no...! He also had a pick at #50 & passed on Johnson! But wait... not possible, man! He had the #53 pick too -- & still didn't take Amir Johnson. Or a less-known guy named Marcin Gortat: he went #57.

Justin Reed, whoever he is, & leave Trevor Ariza on the board? He did that too -- one year earlier.

& finally, we get to Danny's first year as President & GM of the Boston Celtics storied franchise, when he drafted Troy Bell -- passing on David West, Boris Diaw, Kendrick Perkins, Leandro Barbosa, Josh Howard, Zaza Pachulia, Keith Bogans, Matt Bonner, Mo Williams, & Kyle Korver.

Danny Ainge is -- obviously! -- an excellent basketball executive. & he's made some good draft picks -- obviously (though I don't know about the guy he took at #14 last year: do you know his name off the top of your head?) But, the draft is a hard nut to crack. I doubt you've been right about the draft very often. Or, maybe you have been & are more astute than Danny Ainge?

Which is it?

[WizarDynasty]

I'm lost.

Everybody agrees that Shawn Marion was an outstanding player. No one disagrees. & everyone seems to have agreed on that back in '98 as well -- see the text you quote: "His draft status seemed to skyrocket from late-first-rounder to mid-firstrounder to lottery pick in a matter of weeks as he made the tour around the league for individual workouts."

& a video of Michael Jordan scoring 50 points is evidence that you are right about... what exactly?

So, what is your point? That Danny Ainge is great in the draft?

In 2014 (just to grab a single example from a randomly-chosen draft year), Danny took James Young at #17. Where is James today, do you know? Why didn't Danny take Bogdan Bogdanovic? Spencer Dinwiddie? Jerami Grant? Glenn Robinson? Those guys have all turned out better than James Young.

But, really, I mean -- why didn't he take Clint Capela? Or -- since you keep telling us that bottom feeders like the Wiz are so stupid they always miss on guys like Nikola Jokic -- why didn't Danny Ainge take Nikola Jokic?

Why stop there, actually? How come Danny didn't take Rudy Gobert the previous year -- instead of... Lucas Nogueira?

The year before that, why did he take Jared Sullinger & Fab Melo... when Draymond Green was on the board? & Khris Middleton too?

But wait a minute! How about the year before that year? Why did Danny Ainge take MarShon Brooks -- when Jimmy Butler was on the board?

Hey! A couple of years earlier, how come that smart guy Ainge drafted J.R. Giddens (you remember him, don't you?) when he could have taken DeAndre Jordan?

Oh, & the year before that: why did Danny nab Gabe Pruitt in R2 -- he could have had Marc Gasol! But even Ramon Sessions would have been a better choice than Pruitt.

It never stops, does it? I mean, the year before that, Danny drafted Randy Foye. The next guy to go was Rudy Gay. Not only that 40 picks ensued after Danny before someone thought to take Paul Millsap -- who had just led the NCAA in rebounding for 2 years straight! That's every team in the league, btw -- some of them twice! A couple of them 3 times!

Oh, & that previous year! How could Danny take Gerald Green & let Amir Johnson sit undrafted until the 56th spot? That's eleven picks after Lou Williams, btw. Oh no...! He also had a pick at #50 & passed on Johnson! But wait... not possible, man! He had the #53 pick too -- & still didn't take Amir Johnson. Or a less-known guy named Marcin Gortat: he went #57.

Justin Reed, whoever he is, & leave Trevor Ariza on the board? He did that too -- one year earlier.

& finally, we get to Danny's first year as President & GM of the Boston Celtics storied franchise, when he drafted Troy Bell -- passing on David West, Boris Diaw, Kendrick Perkins, Leandro Barbosa, Josh Howard, Zaza Pachulia, Keith Bogans, Matt Bonner, Mo Williams, & Kyle Korver.

Danny Ainge is -- obviously! -- an excellent basketball executive. & he's made some good draft picks -- obviously (though I don't know about the guy he took at #14 last year: do you know his name off the top of your head?) But, the draft is a hard nut to crack. I doubt you've been right about the draft very often. Or, maybe you have been & are more astute than Danny Ainge?

Which is it?

You losing the vision I am providing. Look for hip bend. Go back through this thread. I laid the groundwork for you to improve your skills. It starts with using your eyes and identifying candidates with exceptional hip bend while moving. Then you branch out to standing reach. 9'3 gold standard for powerforwards. 9'0 gold standard for small forwards guards. Just keep subtracing 3 for each position. Go read my posts and you won't get stuck on Danny ainge. You look for deep hip bend in all of your prospects. That's the starting point. the key is the limit. Standing reach is more important than wingspan for post players and small forwards. wingspan is more important for shooting guards and point guards.

Go back and look at all of danny ainge picks, which ones had exceptional hip bend in college. Go look at their college games and you will with your own. Then you will be even better than him because you will see the mistakes he made when he selected guys with poor hip bends and standing reach for their position. HOpe that helps.

[doclinkin]

Tyler Bey can be passive when I look at the game footage I can find. I like his tools but not necessarily his activity level. So. Right. I'm still looking for my guy in this years draft. Late steal. Nate Hinton probably. And Xavier Tillman. Otherwise I'm all over the map this year. Anything to distract me from politics