Political Roundtable Part XXXI

[popper]

It's not missing. I don't know what Popper is talking about.

Again, maybe I just missed. If so, please provide a link to some official Florida government source that specifies what parts of the AP curriculum were considered to violate Florida law. I read your previous post on the subject Zonk and maybe your observations on the relevant section is exactly right. I want to hear the specifics from an official Florida government source though. If that exists, please post it.

[Zonkerbl]

It's not missing. I don't know what Popper is talking about.

Again, maybe I just missed. If so, please provide a link to some official Florida government source that specifies what parts of the AP curriculum were considered to violate Florida law. I read your previous post on the subject Zonk and maybe your observations on the relevant section is exactly right. I want to hear the specifics from an official Florida government source though. If that exists, please post it.

Popper you and I both know that that's not how dogwhistling works. How dumb do you think we are?

If they came out and said the real reason why they are doing this there would be a huge backlash against their racism. That's why racists have to never say the quiet part out loud. The Republicans have made a whole cottage industry out of it.

[popper]

I have no idea what you are talking about so I can't answer. I'm not going to do your homework for you. Figure out what you're trying to say.

So you can't articulate a "universal principle" on a subject that you beat the drums on frequently here. That's okay. Until you can, it's probably not something that you/we should be strident about. I can't do it either. Maybe with additional time and good will we can figure it out.

Popper I'm not as stupid as you think I am. This is your hypothesis. Don't respond to me by insulting me. I have no idea what a "universal principle" is supposed to mean. You're citing a completely whacko idea completely out of context, I'm asking you to explain it, and you're pointing your finger at me like it's my fault I don't understand your secret code. No. That's not how this works. If you want to persuade me, persuade me. The most ineffective way to persuade me is to say "see you don't understand." Exactly. it's your job to explain. If I don't understand you have failed.

What I think is going on here is Popper is trying to repeat something he read someone else saying, but he doesn't understand it himself. I agree that would be embarrassing to admit so I understand the reluctance.

I'm not reluctant in the least and I certainly don't think you or anyone else here is stupid. Examples of universal principles are:

We should treat other people as we would like to be treated

We should judge people by the content of their character and not the color of their skin

Freedom of speech essential to .....

A free press essential to ......

An independent judiciary essential to ....

Etc., etc.

[Zonkerbl]

So you can't articulate a "universal principle" on a subject that you beat the drums on frequently here. That's okay. Until you can, it's probably not something that you/we should be strident about. I can't do it either. Maybe with additional time and good will we can figure it out.

Popper I'm not as stupid as you think I am. This is your hypothesis. Don't respond to me by insulting me. I have no idea what a "universal principle" is supposed to mean. You're citing a completely whacko idea completely out of context, I'm asking you to explain it, and you're pointing your finger at me like it's my fault I don't understand your secret code. No. That's not how this works. If you want to persuade me, persuade me. The most ineffective way to persuade me is to say "see you don't understand." Exactly. it's your job to explain. If I don't understand you have failed.

What I think is going on here is Popper is trying to repeat something he read someone else saying, but he doesn't understand it himself. I agree that would be embarrassing to admit so I understand the reluctance.

I'm not reluctant in the least and I certainly don't think you or anyone else here is stupid. Examples of universal principles are:

We should treat other people as we would like to be treated

We should judge people by the content of their character and not the color of their skin

Freedom of speech essential to .....

A free press essential to ......

An independent judiciary essential to ....

Etc., etc.

What does a universal principle have to do with what I was talking about? To me it seems like a complete non sequitor. Explain. Feels like I defeated you so you are moving the goalposts.

Popper, it's ok to admit you are wrong. I do it all the time. You read something that confirms your priors, you don't read it very carefully, turns out it was complete horsecrap. Don't sweat it.

[popper]

It's not missing. I don't know what Popper is talking about.

Again, maybe I just missed. If so, please provide a link to some official Florida government source that specifies what parts of the AP curriculum were considered to violate Florida law. I read your previous post on the subject Zonk and maybe your observations on the relevant section is exactly right. I want to hear the specifics from an official Florida government source though. If that exists, please post it.

Popper you and I both know that that's not how dogwhistling works. How dumb do you think we are?

If they came out and said the real reason why they are doing this there would be a huge backlash against their racism. That's why racists have to never say the quiet part out loud. The Republicans have made a whole cottage industry out of it.

I speculate that we will hear the specific reasons within the coming week. If they dodge and weave then I will post here that something is very fishy.

[popper]

FWIW - here's the FL statute governing what high schools students will be taught. Scroll down to 2 (h) for section on African American history. I spoke with a state level education administrator and he said the AP curriculum as it currently exists is a pilot that is quite good except for a small section that violates some FL law. They've already invited the relevant provider to modify that section and reapply.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?mode=View%20Statutes&SubMenu=1&App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=1003.42&URL=1000-1099/1003/Sections/1003.42.html

What is the small section that violates FL law?

This absolute horsecrap section?

"(3) The Legislature acknowledges the fundamental truth that all persons are equal before the law and have inalienable rights. Accordingly, instruction and supporting materials on the topics enumerated in this section must be consistent with the following principles of individual freedom:
(a) No person is inherently racist, sexist, or oppressive, whether consciously or unconsciously, solely by virtue of his or her race or sex.
(b) No race is inherently superior to another race.
(c) No person should be discriminated against or receive adverse treatment solely or partly on the basis of race, color, national origin, religion, disability, or sex.
(d) Meritocracy or traits such as a hard work ethic are not racist but fundamental to the right to pursue happiness and be rewarded for industry.
(e) A person, by virtue of his or her race or sex, does not bear responsibility for actions committed in the past by other members of the same race or sex.
(f) A person should not be instructed that he or she must feel guilt, anguish, or other forms of psychological distress for actions, in which he or she played no part, committed in the past by other members of the same race or sex."

Why is it illegal to make white people uncomfortable? Why is it not illegal to make black people uncomfortable? What business of the state is it the individual mindset of anyone taking a class? Is it Thoughtcrime to think white people as a group should take responsibility for the actions of their forebears? Whose responsibility is it? Black people's?

Also don't appreciate the laziness of making me look this up. State your case without deception or omission.

Zonk - this is your post that elicited my request for a universal principle. You bolded one section and then asked a number of what appear to be rhetorical question. I think somewhere in there you have a position in opposition to the bolded section. If that is accurate, I would like to know what it is in the form of a universal principal.

Edit - IOW can your position be applied to other questions related to the subject

[Zonkerbl]

FWIW - here's the FL statute governing what high schools students will be taught. Scroll down to 2 (h) for section on African American history. I spoke with a state level education administrator and he said the AP curriculum as it currently exists is a pilot that is quite good except for a small section that violates some FL law. They've already invited the relevant provider to modify that section and reapply.

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?mode=View%20Statutes&SubMenu=1&App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=1003.42&URL=1000-1099/1003/Sections/1003.42.html

What is the small section that violates FL law?

This absolute horsecrap section?

"(3) The Legislature acknowledges the fundamental truth that all persons are equal before the law and have inalienable rights. Accordingly, instruction and supporting materials on the topics enumerated in this section must be consistent with the following principles of individual freedom:
(a) No person is inherently racist, sexist, or oppressive, whether consciously or unconsciously, solely by virtue of his or her race or sex.
(b) No race is inherently superior to another race.
(c) No person should be discriminated against or receive adverse treatment solely or partly on the basis of race, color, national origin, religion, disability, or sex.
(d) Meritocracy or traits such as a hard work ethic are not racist but fundamental to the right to pursue happiness and be rewarded for industry.
(e) A person, by virtue of his or her race or sex, does not bear responsibility for actions committed in the past by other members of the same race or sex.
(f) A person should not be instructed that he or she must feel guilt, anguish, or other forms of psychological distress for actions, in which he or she played no part, committed in the past by other members of the same race or sex."

Why is it illegal to make white people uncomfortable? Why is it not illegal to make black people uncomfortable? What business of the state is it the individual mindset of anyone taking a class? Is it Thoughtcrime to think white people as a group should take responsibility for the actions of their forebears? Whose responsibility is it? Black people's?

Also don't appreciate the laziness of making me look this up. State your case without deception or omission.

Zonk - this is your post that elicited my request for a universal principle. You bolded one section and then asked a number of what appear to be rhetorical question. I think somewhere in there you have a position in opposition to the bolded section. If that is accurate, I would like to know what it is in the form of a universal principal.

Edit - IOW can your position be applied to other questions related to the subject

My universal principle is that ongoing injustices should not be allowed to continue. If addressing the injustice makes you uncomfortable, that is God telling you it is the right thing to do. If addressing injustice were easy, it wouldn't exist. This universal imperative trumps all others. It is one of the bedrock principles of my religion ("tikkun olam" - "repair the world").

[popper]

What is the small section that violates FL law?

This absolute horsecrap section?

"(3) The Legislature acknowledges the fundamental truth that all persons are equal before the law and have inalienable rights. Accordingly, instruction and supporting materials on the topics enumerated in this section must be consistent with the following principles of individual freedom:
(a) No person is inherently racist, sexist, or oppressive, whether consciously or unconsciously, solely by virtue of his or her race or sex.
(b) No race is inherently superior to another race.
(c) No person should be discriminated against or receive adverse treatment solely or partly on the basis of race, color, national origin, religion, disability, or sex.
(d) Meritocracy or traits such as a hard work ethic are not racist but fundamental to the right to pursue happiness and be rewarded for industry.
(e) A person, by virtue of his or her race or sex, does not bear responsibility for actions committed in the past by other members of the same race or sex.
(f) A person should not be instructed that he or she must feel guilt, anguish, or other forms of psychological distress for actions, in which he or she played no part, committed in the past by other members of the same race or sex."

Why is it illegal to make white people uncomfortable? Why is it not illegal to make black people uncomfortable? What business of the state is it the individual mindset of anyone taking a class? Is it Thoughtcrime to think white people as a group should take responsibility for the actions of their forebears? Whose responsibility is it? Black people's?

Also don't appreciate the laziness of making me look this up. State your case without deception or omission.

Zonk - this is your post that elicited my request for a universal principle. You bolded one section and then asked a number of what appear to be rhetorical question. I think somewhere in there you have a position in opposition to the bolded section. If that is accurate, I would like to know what it is in the form of a universal principal.

Edit - IOW can your position be applied to other questions related to the subject

My universal principle is that ongoing injustices should not be allowed to continue. If addressing the injustice makes you uncomfortable, that is God telling you it is the right thing to do. If addressing injustice were easy, it wouldn't exist. This universal imperative trumps all others. It is one of the bedrock principles of my religion ("tikkun olam" - "repair the world").

[popper]

Zonk - this is your post that elicited my request for a universal principle. You bolded one section and then asked a number of what appear to be rhetorical question. I think somewhere in there you have a position in opposition to the bolded section. If that is accurate, I would like to know what it is in the form of a universal principal.

Edit - IOW can your position be applied to other questions related to the subject

My universal principle is that ongoing injustices should not be allowed to continue. If addressing the injustice makes you uncomfortable, that is God telling you it is the right thing to do. If addressing injustice were easy, it wouldn't exist. This universal imperative trumps all others. It is one of the bedrock principles of my religion ("tikkun olam" - "repair the world").

Great. How do you recommend we address the ongoing injustice?

[Wizardspride]

Again, maybe I just missed. If so, please provide a link to some official Florida government source that specifies what parts of the AP curriculum were considered to violate Florida law. I read your previous post on the subject Zonk and maybe your observations on the relevant section is exactly right. I want to hear the specifics from an official Florida government source though. If that exists, please post it.

Popper you and I both know that that's not how dogwhistling works. How dumb do you think we are?

If they came out and said the real reason why they are doing this there would be a huge backlash against their racism. That's why racists have to never say the quiet part out loud. The Republicans have made a whole cottage industry out of it.

I speculate that we will hear the specific reasons within the coming week. If they dodge and weave then I will post here that something is very fishy.

Whenever the terms "diversity" or "inclusiveness" are used DeSantis goes on a tirade about the "woke agenda".

This decision fits the pattern

[doclinkin]

Excellent post except for the comment that most R's think we live in a utopia. Every R I know thinks the opposite.

Ok. Republicans think we USED to live in a utopia. In some cheerful Christmas Story version of history where black folks didn't even show up on the screen and we didn't have to think about these things. Men were men, had jobs, worked hard, women stayed home and made life easier for those men. And yeah yeah yeah brown people did whatever brown people do, who cares. They weren't out here causing all this trouble. Make American great again.

You are right though that wealthy D's and R's are perfectly happy with our corrupt system.

Your paragraph describing a country that could aspire to or perhaps achieve some significant measure of continuous and dynamic improvement is spot on and well said. IMO that would require an education system that is top tier. As you know, our K-12 has been going down hill for years. I wish this thread would focus more on that.

Ironic statement given that we are talking about redacting history from the educational system of a state so that people won't have feelings about bad things that happened. Using whiteout on facts does not lead to a better educated populace. Eliminating fact from teaching: not top-tier at all.

Your racism towards white people is showing

Tangent. I got curious. Apparently A Christmas Story is set in a fictional town in Indiana in 1940. Ralphie Parker is 9-10 years old in the story. Looking at Indiana's history, in Ralphie's lifetime, in 1930 the famous Marion Lynching occurred. In Marion Indiana 2 falsely accused black teens were pulled from a jail cell and lynched in the public square. This lynching was recorded in the famous photo of a crowd of white folks standing around under the tree posing for pictures under the murdered kids. The pic was turned into a postcard and thousands were sold. (This pic was the inspiration for the song Strange Fruit).

So yeah. Something as innocent and humorous and quaint and touching as A Christmas Story occurred in a very different America than black folks experienced at the time. (Nevermind what was happening in Europe then).

If we don't know that this sort of thing is part of our combined history, then we can't inoculate ourselves against their reoccurrence. We say "Never Again" about the Nazi holocaust, but if we were not taught about it in schools, because we might upset German kids, or non-jews, or whatever, then how would we learn what's the "Again" we are talking about? History belongs to all of us, black, white, immigrant, descendants of slaves, or indigenous people who were here when ships showed up from Europe. There should be no part of the factual record that is omitted from texts just because it might hurt someone's feelings.

I loved a Christmas Story as a kid. It still makes me laugh. It's also fair to know there is another story that would be told in a town just down the road. Whose 'Great' are we talking about. What 'America'. Shoot if they had a MAGFO hat I'd buy it. Make America Great For Once. Or MAGAL, great god almighty Make America Great At Last. Because that 'Great'ness was based on outsourcing trauma and misery for others to bear. Not even talking reparations or what if anything one can do about it, the first step in recovery is admitting it's an issue. Tell the whole damned truth.

(Actually I'd watch the Black Christmas Story, if someone wrote the screen play. Or parody. That'd be funny as hell, and yeah, potentially deep. But anyway).

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

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[Zonkerbl]

My universal principle is that ongoing injustices should not be allowed to continue. If addressing the injustice makes you uncomfortable, that is God telling you it is the right thing to do. If addressing injustice were easy, it wouldn't exist. This universal imperative trumps all others. It is one of the bedrock principles of my religion ("tikkun olam" - "repair the world").

Great. How do you recommend we address the ongoing injustice?

We do the opposite of what DeSantis is doing.

[Zonkerbl]

Again, maybe I just missed. If so, please provide a link to some official Florida government source that specifies what parts of the AP curriculum were considered to violate Florida law. I read your previous post on the subject Zonk and maybe your observations on the relevant section is exactly right. I want to hear the specifics from an official Florida government source though. If that exists, please post it.

Popper you and I both know that that's not how dogwhistling works. How dumb do you think we are?

If they came out and said the real reason why they are doing this there would be a huge backlash against their racism. That's why racists have to never say the quiet part out loud. The Republicans have made a whole cottage industry out of it.

I speculate that we will hear the specific reasons within the coming week. If they dodge and weave then I will post here that something is very fishy.

??? They've been dodging and weaving the whole time? Are we observing different facts? Dodging and weaving is the Republican party's business model "Hey look over here at this "Don't Say Slavery Because It Makes White People Feel Guilty" legislation which is DEFINITELY NOT racist while we hold the world economy hostage to force through social security and medicare cuts to satisfy our (non Jewish!) billionaire puppetmasters!"

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

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[Pointgod]

Read on Twitter

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This guy is about to rake in a ton of fundraising money. Ultimately I don’t see Sinema running.

[Zonkerbl]

Paying for advertising is a sucker's game. Manipulate the media into giving you free press, or use advertiser revenue to make money off of spreading your sick right wing propaganda.

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

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[Zonkerbl]

https://www.npr.org/2023/01/22/1150259944/florida-rejects-ap-class-african-american-studies

Did someone post this already? I remember we had a side conversation about NPR. I think the insane Republican tweets screeching for censorship of the class speak for themselves.

For example:

Read on Twitter

This goon hysterically advocating for the censorship of a class because it teaches a particular academic theory is particularly abhorrent. Fundamentally unamerican.

[Fairview4Life]

Lol I like how Angela Davis' sin is being a "self avowed communist/marxist". What a **** joke.