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Political Roundtable - Part VII

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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1901 » by nate33 » Thu Dec 3, 2015 6:08 pm

It's curious that the U.S. is always compared to European nations when discussing homicide rate. It seems to me that European nations have historically been demographically homogeneous, with centuries of common cultural traditions and family bonds that help them to live among each other. The U.S. is more like the rest of the nations in the Americas. We are a culturally diverse mixture of ethnicities, races and religions with a much shorter common history. When you compare us to the rest of the Americas, we look pretty good. Here's a graph. The x axis is guns per resident. The y axis is murder rate.

Image

It seems that our high rate of gun possession isn't impacting our murder rate all that much.

If you want to compare the U.S. to Europe, we should at least try to make an apples-to-apples comparison and compare our more racially and culturally homogeneous states to that of Europe. Here are the murder rates in select, mostly racially homogeneous states:

Idaho 2.0
Iowa 1.9
Maine 1.6
Minnesota 1.6
New Hampshire 0.9
Oregon 2.0
South Dakota 2.3
Utah 2.3
Vermont 1.6

These numbers compare with European nations like:

Norway 2.2
Hungary 2.7
Ireland 1.2
Germany 1.0
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1902 » by montestewart » Thu Dec 3, 2015 6:16 pm

I_Like_Dirt wrote:
TheSecretWeapon wrote:I disagree that a terrorist would avoid a target like the one attacked today. The whole point of a terrorist attack is to get attention and scare people. What's more scary and disconcerting than an attack on disabled people? The core message being delivered in an attack on a facility serving disabled people is this: anyone, anywhere, any time.


But the kind of attention and from whom matters. And that's where this is confusing. Usually the attention sought from terrorist attacks isn't principally from the targets, but the rest of the Muslim world. It's a perverted form of a show of strength to demonstrate that their organization is capable of doing something. I'm not so sure this type of attack achieves that in any way. It could still be seen in the light of trying to draw retaliation which would continue to strengthen the divide desired by many international terrorists, but it would definitely be a bit of an unusual case if that proves to be what happened here. Personally, I suspect this has more to do with personal stuff, but it will be interesting to find out if anything is ever publicly known about the motivations here. It's curious and we may never know.

I've never participated in the planning of any terrorist activities, so I just guess about motivations, goals, and tactics. The typical cautions regarding terrorism are related to public events and places, public transportation, monuments, etc. I could see an attack like this (if it is a terrorist attack) doing as TSW asserts, spreading greater terror by making everything seem vulnerable. How about an attack on the Trans-Alaskan Pipeline, or a U.S.-Mexico border checkpoint, or a relatively mainstream U.S. mosque? Any of these could further raise the sense of terror, with people increasingly concerned about what places are safe. I don't see why that couldn't be a strategy.

But reports seem to indicate that the location itself coincidental, as the function that was shot up was connected to the employment of one of the shooter's, and merely took place in space rented from the facility. To your other point, I wouldn't rule out personal motives (anger, psychological issues, etc.) either. When a Christian goes into a place of employment and shoots it up, I don't automatically assume it is motivated by extreme religious views. From what I've heard, the male shooter was 28, lived with his parents, and was trying to find a wife online. I suppose I'm biased, but that at least fits a stereotype, and if the wife became such by responding to an online ad, that fits a stereotype too. Maybe two lost, messed up people who found purpose in something horrible. I don't see why a Muslim can't also be "a quiet type who kind of kept to himself."

I heard Wolf Blitzer use the word "gruesome" like 10 times in reporting, and then like a virus, everyone who heard him say it started saying, "gruesome" too. Likewise with "long guns," as if everyone has a uniform understanding about what that means (could be a cannon). The inanities uttered when covering such unfolding events seem the result of, "No matter what, do not allow any dead air."
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1903 » by Zonkerbl » Thu Dec 3, 2015 6:17 pm

Nate, always with the specious arguments. Make the same graph for handgun suicide deaths.

Guns are evil and should be banned. What kind of sick f#ck do you have to be to defend them?
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1904 » by nate33 » Thu Dec 3, 2015 6:23 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:Nate, always with the specious arguments. Make the same graph for handgun suicide deaths.

Guns are evil and should be banned. What kind of sick f#ck do you have to be to defend them?

One that doesn't think emotionally. I have the rationality to understand that there is a deterrence effect to handguns that doesn't get factored in these debates. Statistically, whenever an attempt is made at eliminating other variables, there is no indication that more handguns lead to more homicide. I keep posting the data, and you keep ignoring it and calling me names.

And of course handguns are going to lead to more handgun suicide deaths. I don't consider suicide to be same type of problem as homicide because it is a victimless crime.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1905 » by montestewart » Thu Dec 3, 2015 6:26 pm

nate33 wrote:If you want to compare the U.S. to Europe, we should at least try to make an apples-to-apples comparison and compare our more racially and culturally homogeneous states to that of Europe. Here are the murder rates in select, mostly racially homogeneous states:

Idaho 2.0
Iowa 1.9
Maine 1.6
Minnesota 1.6
New Hampshire 0.9
Oregon 2.0
South Dakota 2.3
Utah 2.3
Vermont 1.6


If you fly into a homicidal rage in those states, you would probably have to drive for two hours to find someone to kill. Not worth it. But I do take your point about race mixing. John Lennon tried it, and now he's dead.

PS: I don't necessarily disagree about the potential for a deterrent effect from widespread gun ownership, but I think I would much prefer a world where no one (or at least very few) had access to guns.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1906 » by Zonkerbl » Thu Dec 3, 2015 6:29 pm

nate33 wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:Nate, always with the specious arguments. Make the same graph for handgun suicide deaths.

Guns are evil and should be banned. What kind of sick f#ck do you have to be to defend them?

One that doesn't think emotionally. I have the rationality to understand that there is a deterrence effect to handguns that doesn't get factored in these debates. Statistically, whenever an attempt is made at eliminating other variables, there is no indication that more handguns lead to more homicide. I keep posting the data, and you keep ignoring it and calling me names.

And of course handguns are going to lead to more handgun suicide deaths. I don't consider suicide to be same type of problem as homicide because it is a victimless crime.


You're so full of bull**** I'm amazed you don't asphyxiate. You claim your arguments are fact based - what facts do you have to back up your completely absurd claim that there's a deterrent effect from gun ownership? It's laughable!

I'm just amazed that anyone in their right mind would defend the right to own guns. It's insane. We live in a sick country.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1907 » by nate33 » Thu Dec 3, 2015 6:38 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:
nate33 wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:Nate, always with the specious arguments. Make the same graph for handgun suicide deaths.

Guns are evil and should be banned. What kind of sick f#ck do you have to be to defend them?

One that doesn't think emotionally. I have the rationality to understand that there is a deterrence effect to handguns that doesn't get factored in these debates. Statistically, whenever an attempt is made at eliminating other variables, there is no indication that more handguns lead to more homicide. I keep posting the data, and you keep ignoring it and calling me names.

And of course handguns are going to lead to more handgun suicide deaths. I don't consider suicide to be same type of problem as homicide because it is a victimless crime.


You're so full of bull**** I'm amazed you don't asphyxiate. You claim your arguments are fact based - what facts do you have to back up your completely absurd claim that there's a deterrent effect from gun ownership? It's laughable!

I'm just amazed that anyone in their right mind would defend the right to own guns. It's insane. We live in a sick country.

Image

There is a modestly negative correlation between gun ownership and gun homicide rate.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1908 » by nate33 » Thu Dec 3, 2015 6:40 pm

montestewart wrote:
nate33 wrote:If you want to compare the U.S. to Europe, we should at least try to make an apples-to-apples comparison and compare our more racially and culturally homogeneous states to that of Europe. Here are the murder rates in select, mostly racially homogeneous states:

Idaho 2.0
Iowa 1.9
Maine 1.6
Minnesota 1.6
New Hampshire 0.9
Oregon 2.0
South Dakota 2.3
Utah 2.3
Vermont 1.6


If you fly into a homicidal rage in those states, you would probably have to drive for two hours to find someone to kill. Not worth it. But I do take your point about race mixing. John Lennon tried it, and now he's dead.

PS: I don't necessarily disagree about the potential for a deterrent effect from widespread gun ownership, but I think I would much prefer a world where no one (or at least very few) had access to guns.

Your proximity argument may be a modest influencing factor, but let's not act like those states don't also have high population density cities.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1909 » by dobrojim » Thu Dec 3, 2015 6:43 pm

Maybe there is a gross underreporting of these event to the extent they do occur, but I keep waiting for
the mass shooting that didn't happen because 'a good guy had a gun'. Maybe it's explainable by
left wing media bias. But I doubt it.

One of the few 'gun nuts' (appropo in this instance) I know claims:
1. the second amendment was to protect the citizens against their own govt.
2. If the Jews had only disobeyed the gun control rules and armed themselves
they could have avoided or mitigated the holocaust and he's armed himself to
protect against the tyranny of our govt.

response -
1. At least some scholars of the amendment point out that the Founders greatly feared
and did not want the country to have a standing army. There is even a prohibition in the
Constitution for funding the army for more than something like 2 years. They wanted state
militias to fill that role. Hence the call for well regulated militias. For the vast majority
of the history of our country, the courts did not confirm an unlimited right of private citizens
to bear arms. That's a much more recent invention.

2. The Nazis would have slaughtered the Jews regardless. A few pistols, rifles etc would
have been no match for the well equiped military of Nazi Germany. I hope my friend never
tries to take on the govt with whatever limited firearms he has. The govt has freakin
hellfire missles from pilotless drones. That'd be like a girls elem school rec league team
taking on the GSW.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1910 » by nate33 » Thu Dec 3, 2015 7:00 pm

dobrojim wrote:Maybe there is a gross underreporting of these event to the extent they do occur, but I keep waiting for
the mass shooting that didn't happen because 'a good guy had a gun'. Maybe it's explainable by
left wing media bias. But I doubt it.

You aren't fully understanding the deterrence effect. It's not that there are a high number of "good guy had a gun" scenarios in which they averted a would be disaster. It's that the potential for "good guy has a gun" deters the bad guy from committing his act in the first place.

You gotta admit, a shockingly high percentage of these mass shootings are taking place in so-called gun free zones like schools.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1911 » by I_Like_Dirt » Thu Dec 3, 2015 7:00 pm

montestewart wrote:I've never participated in the planning of any terrorist activities, so I just guess about motivations, goals, and tactics. The typical cautions regarding terrorism are related to public events and places, public transportation, monuments, etc. I could see an attack like this (if it is a terrorist attack) doing as TSW asserts, spreading greater terror by making everything seem vulnerable. How about an attack on the Trans-Alaskan Pipeline, or a U.S.-Mexico border checkpoint, or a relatively mainstream U.S. mosque? Any of these could further raise the sense of terror, with people increasingly concerned about what places are safe. I don't see why that couldn't be a strategy.


It very well could be, I don't pretend to know precisely what motivates terrorists, either, and they are so different that ruling anything out would be a mistake. That said, I do think the book, Unholy War, by John Esposito, spells out a bit a certain, broad level of what's going on. He's speaking more immediately about a post-911 world, but a lot of his ideas still hold, I think. I will give the caveat that I'm about to use some broad generalizations that do a bit of a disservice to Esposito's points and don't cover all terrorist activity anyway.

The idea is to use anti-Westernism as a tool to mobilize. Terrorist organizations know that a direct war against any developed country isn't one they can win. So points of more strategic significance aren't necessarily what they're after here. If you know you can't win a war head on, the goal would become to create a force that can win, or at least last. I mean, the idea of a unified Muslim state is a pretty strong, but there just so happens to be a lot of disagreement over how it would work and who should run it. So much like governments here do, they find a common enemy, and anti-American, or anti-Western sentiments relative various political policies are pretty easy targets. So the idea becomes to try and show strength that you are strong enough to start tackling these issues, and if your actions result in even more negative policies from the west, all the better. The targets might be Europe or North America, but the audience is moreso the Muslim world, and if they can corrupt an increasing amount of support to their twisted views of Islam, the better. With that in mind, I think there would be a lot of targets just as easy to hit that would have had quite a bit more symbolic value, but if this is in fact the case, you'll see someone take "credit" for it pretty soon because not doing so would defeat the purpose. There is so much that could be the case here, though, that I might be wrong, or it might even be something that none of us had even considered.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1912 » by popper » Thu Dec 3, 2015 7:26 pm

.... The Institute of Medicine and the National Research Council released the results of their research through the CDC last month. Researchers compiled data from previous studies in order to guide future research on gun violence, noting that “almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year.”

“Most felons report obtaining the majority of their firearms from informal sources,” adds the report, while “stolen guns account for only a small percentage of guns used by convicted criminals.” ........

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/cdc-study-use-firearms-self-defense-important-crime-deterrent
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1913 » by Zonkerbl » Thu Dec 3, 2015 7:27 pm

No offense Nate I feel like I can vent with you and you won't find my house and kill me.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1914 » by Zonkerbl » Thu Dec 3, 2015 7:29 pm

popper wrote:.... The Institute of Medicine and the National Research Council released the results of their research through the CDC last month. Researchers compiled data from previous studies in order to guide future research on gun violence, noting that “almost all national survey estimates indicate that defensive gun uses by victims are at least as common as offensive uses by criminals, with estimates of annual uses ranging from about 500,000 to more than 3 million per year.”

“Most felons report obtaining the majority of their firearms from informal sources,” adds the report, while “stolen guns account for only a small percentage of guns used by convicted criminals.” ........

http://www.cnsnews.com/news/article/cdc-study-use-firearms-self-defense-important-crime-deterrent


Interesting... although I thought Congress blocked the CDC from researching gun violence? I just read an article about it.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1915 » by Zonkerbl » Thu Dec 3, 2015 7:33 pm

dobrojim wrote:Maybe there is a gross underreporting of these event to the extent they do occur, but I keep waiting for
the mass shooting that didn't happen because 'a good guy had a gun'. Maybe it's explainable by
left wing media bias. But I doubt it.

One of the few 'gun nuts' (appropo in this instance) I know claims:
1. the second amendment was to protect the citizens against their own govt.
2. If the Jews had only disobeyed the gun control rules and armed themselves
they could have avoided or mitigated the holocaust and he's armed himself to
protect against the tyranny of our govt.

response -
1. At least some scholars of the amendment point out that the Founders greatly feared
and did not want the country to have a standing army. There is even a prohibition in the
Constitution for funding the army for more than something like 2 years. They wanted state
militias to fill that role. Hence the call for well regulated militias. For the vast majority
of the history of our country, the courts did not confirm an unlimited right of private citizens
to bear arms. That's a much more recent invention.

2. The Nazis would have slaughtered the Jews regardless. A few pistols, rifles etc would
have been no match for the well equiped military of Nazi Germany. I hope my friend never
tries to take on the govt with whatever limited firearms he has. The govt has freakin
hellfire missles from pilotless drones. That'd be like a girls elem school rec league team
taking on the GSW.


Yeah there's no "right to own tanks" in the Constitution.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1916 » by Zonkerbl » Thu Dec 3, 2015 7:56 pm

This is interesting:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonk/wp/2015/12/02/san-bernadino-shooting-11-essential-facts-about-guns-and-mass-shootings-in-america/?tid=sm_fb

""The most striking features of the data are (1) how much more violent the U.S. is than other OECD countries (except possibly Estonia and Mexico, not shown here), and (2) the degree of change—and recently, decline—there has been in the U.S. time series considered by itself.""

"The Harvard Injury Control Research Center assessed the literature on guns and homicide and found that there's substantial evidence that where there are more guns, there are more homicides. If guns are available, it is more likely that a violent dispute will become a deadly one, and that a criminal with the intent to kill can find the means to do so."

"Firearm deaths are significantly lower in states with stricter gun control legislation."
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1917 » by TGW » Thu Dec 3, 2015 8:58 pm

nate33 wrote:
dobrojim wrote:Maybe there is a gross underreporting of these event to the extent they do occur, but I keep waiting for
the mass shooting that didn't happen because 'a good guy had a gun'. Maybe it's explainable by
left wing media bias. But I doubt it.

You aren't fully understanding the deterrence effect. It's not that there are a high number of "good guy had a gun" scenarios in which they averted a would be disaster. It's that the potential for "good guy has a gun" deters the bad guy from committing his act in the first place.

You gotta admit, a shockingly high percentage of these mass shootings are taking place in so-called gun free zones like schools.


So you advocate guns in schools and government buildings? Please elaborate.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1918 » by fishercob » Thu Dec 3, 2015 9:07 pm

nate33 wrote:It's curious that the U.S. is always compared to European nations when discussing homicide rate. It seems to me that European nations have historically been demographically homogeneous, with centuries of common cultural traditions and family bonds that help them to live among each other. The U.S. is more like the rest of the nations in the Americas. We are a culturally diverse mixture of ethnicities, races and religions with a much shorter common history. When you compare us to the rest of the Americas, we look pretty good. Here's a graph. The x axis is guns per resident. The y axis is murder rate.

Image

It seems that our high rate of gun possession isn't impacting our murder rate all that much.

If you want to compare the U.S. to Europe, we should at least try to make an apples-to-apples comparison and compare our more racially and culturally homogeneous states to that of Europe. Here are the murder rates in select, mostly racially homogeneous states:

Idaho 2.0
Iowa 1.9
Maine 1.6
Minnesota 1.6
New Hampshire 0.9
Oregon 2.0
South Dakota 2.3
Utah 2.3
Vermont 1.6

These numbers compare with European nations like:

Norway 2.2
Hungary 2.7
Ireland 1.2
Germany 1.0


I believe the US and Canada are the only two developed countries on your entire chart. The US gets compared to Europe because it's chock full of developed countries.

How does your "separate the races" thesis jibe with New York and New Jersey having a below average gun homicide rates? California is barely above average as well.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1919 » by nate33 » Thu Dec 3, 2015 9:23 pm

TGW wrote:
nate33 wrote:
dobrojim wrote:Maybe there is a gross underreporting of these event to the extent they do occur, but I keep waiting for
the mass shooting that didn't happen because 'a good guy had a gun'. Maybe it's explainable by
left wing media bias. But I doubt it.

You aren't fully understanding the deterrence effect. It's not that there are a high number of "good guy had a gun" scenarios in which they averted a would be disaster. It's that the potential for "good guy has a gun" deters the bad guy from committing his act in the first place.

You gotta admit, a shockingly high percentage of these mass shootings are taking place in so-called gun free zones like schools.


So you advocate guns in schools and government buildings? Please elaborate.

I was just pointing out that the circumstantial evidence suggests that guns do have a deterrence effect, even with mass shootings.

But since you asked, yes, I would indeed advocate guns in schools and government buildings. Or rather, I wouldn't have "gun free zones" supersede the existing concealed and carry laws for the state. It's not that I would implement a policy of arming teachers. It's merely that I would have a policy that didn't broadcast to criminals that teachers are explicitly unarmed.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VII 

Post#1920 » by nate33 » Thu Dec 3, 2015 9:41 pm

fishercob wrote:
nate33 wrote:It's curious that the U.S. is always compared to European nations when discussing homicide rate. It seems to me that European nations have historically been demographically homogeneous, with centuries of common cultural traditions and family bonds that help them to live among each other. The U.S. is more like the rest of the nations in the Americas. We are a culturally diverse mixture of ethnicities, races and religions with a much shorter common history. When you compare us to the rest of the Americas, we look pretty good. Here's a graph. The x axis is guns per resident. The y axis is murder rate.

Image

It seems that our high rate of gun possession isn't impacting our murder rate all that much.

If you want to compare the U.S. to Europe, we should at least try to make an apples-to-apples comparison and compare our more racially and culturally homogeneous states to that of Europe. Here are the murder rates in select, mostly racially homogeneous states:

Idaho 2.0
Iowa 1.9
Maine 1.6
Minnesota 1.6
New Hampshire 0.9
Oregon 2.0
South Dakota 2.3
Utah 2.3
Vermont 1.6

These numbers compare with European nations like:

Norway 2.2
Hungary 2.7
Ireland 1.2
Germany 1.0


I believe the US and Canada are the only two developed countries on your entire chart. The US gets compared to Europe because it's chock full of developed countries.

How does your "separate the races" thesis jibe with New York and New Jersey having a below average gun homicide rates? California is barely above average as well.

Fair point about New York. But New York City is an outlier in many aspects of criminality. It's violent crime rate is way out of line relative to other cities of similar size, population density, and demographic makeup. I attribute much of that to Gulianni's "broken window" policies. It's worked well everywhere it has been tried.

I wouldn't consider New Jersey to be such an aberration. It's homicide rate is more or less in line with expectations given its demographic makeup - maybe a bit low.

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