Political Roundtable Part XVIII

[closg00]

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Fortunately, Mueller has no restrictions

[dckingsfan]

In the conversations I had - I started it with what kind of controls they wanted to have. They all came back with - we don't have enough background checks and these knuckleheads don't know how to use a gun.

I asked if insurance where they had to have a background check and certify that they can use a gun would work.

They then had lots of ideas on how to make it work - including classes for those that wanted to get safe. They saw it as a way to make more of them - safe gun owners.

There will be the group that adamantly apposes this - gun manufactures for example.

[dckingsfan]

...

Fortunately, Mueller has no restrictions

Generally, when you assign a prosecutor, you assign them to a specific crime.

I can't really tell what Mueller has been assigned to probe. Do you guys have the specific link on that?

[Wizardspride]

...

Fortunately, Mueller has no restrictions

Generally, when you assign a prosecutor, you assign them to a specific crime.

I can't really tell what Mueller has been assigned to probe. Do you guys have the specific link on that?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/powerpost/rosenstein-special-counsel-mueller-can-investigate-any-crimes-he-uncovers-in-russia-probe/2017/08/06/2209365a-7aae-11e7-83c7-5bd5460f0d7e_story.html

[dckingsfan]

Fortunately, Mueller has no restrictions

Generally, when you assign a prosecutor, you assign them to a specific crime.

I can't really tell what Mueller has been assigned to probe. Do you guys have the specific link on that?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/powerpost/rosenstein-special-counsel-mueller-can-investigate-any-crimes-he-uncovers-in-russia-probe/2017/08/06/2209365a-7aae-11e7-83c7-5bd5460f0d7e_story.html

Firewall + I would rather have the source document - although it could be in the link you sent.

[gtn130]

In the conversations I had - I started it with what kind of controls they wanted to have. They all came back with - we don't have enough background checks and these knuckleheads don't know how to use a gun.

I asked if insurance where they had to have a background check and certify that they can use a gun would work.

They then had lots of ideas on how to make it work - including classes for those that wanted to get safe. They saw it as a way to make more of them - safe gun owners.

There will be the group that adamantly apposes this - gun manufactures for example.

Pretty good crystallization here of why dckingsfan and I will never see eye to eye on much.

Like is there a particular reason we need to go into Trump Country and do this ethnography on the deep rooted FEELINGS of gun owners? These are the morons who have empowered the NRA and their pro-murder agenda in the first place. Let's prop them up and Let The Right Lead in the most David Brooksian can't see the forest for the trees type of way has run its course.

Newsflash: we've Let Red America Lead The Way On Guns for decades now. The entire David Brooks Baby Boomer class needs to wake up and realize they're a huge part of the problem. We're not going to keep handing the ball to the morons who caused all these problems in the first place.

[Wizardspride]

Generally, when you assign a prosecutor, you assign them to a specific crime.

I can't really tell what Mueller has been assigned to probe. Do you guys have the specific link on that?

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.washingtonpost.com/amphtml/powerpost/rosenstein-special-counsel-mueller-can-investigate-any-crimes-he-uncovers-in-russia-probe/2017/08/06/2209365a-7aae-11e7-83c7-5bd5460f0d7e_story.html

Firewall + I would rather have the source document - although it could be in the link you sent.

From the link above

Rosenstein said special counsel Robert S. Mueller III can investigate any crimes that he might discover within the scope of his probe

[gtn130]

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The poll’s demographic breakdown further tells the story. The gun debate is marked by a deep cultural divide. One one side are aging, rural, non-college-educated and evangelical Christian white voters who are more inclined to be gun owners. On the other side are younger, urban and suburban, secular, college-educated whites, especially women, who are less likely to own guns. The gun-owning camp, we regularly hear, is more motivated by the issue.

But the CNN numbers point to something potentially important — an apparent intensity on the issue among that latter set of groups:

63 percent of women strongly favor stricter gun control laws.
62 percent of nonwhites strongly favor them.
76 percent of people who disapprove of Trump strongly favor them.
58 percent of white college graduates strongly favor them.
66 percent of non-gun households strongly favor them.

What’s more, the CNN numbers show, counterintuitively, that even among the groups who are supposed to be culturally inclined against action, majorities actually favor action. Crucially, even more of them strongly favor action than strongly oppose it:

Non-college-educated whites favor stricter gun control laws by 63 percent to 31 percent; 43 percent of them strongly favor them, while only 17 percent strongly oppose them.
Americans over 65 favor stricter gun control laws by 73 percent to 20 percent; 57 percent strongly favor them, while only 10 percent strongly oppose them.
People from gun households favor stricter gun control laws by 56 percent to 38 percent; among those people, 38 percent strongly favor them, while only 22 percent strongly oppose them.
White evangelical Christians favor stricter gun control laws by 52 percent to 40 percent; 34 percent strongly favor them, while only 22 percent strongly oppose them.
Even people who approve of Trump are surprisingly split: Fifty-two percent oppose stricter gun controls, but 41 percent support them.

But yes now is definitely the time to fire off the Trump Country ethnography. Centrism!

[dckingsfan]

In the conversations I had - I started it with what kind of controls they wanted to have. They all came back with - we don't have enough background checks and these knuckleheads don't know how to use a gun.

I asked if insurance where they had to have a background check and certify that they can use a gun would work.

They then had lots of ideas on how to make it work - including classes for those that wanted to get safe. They saw it as a way to make more of them - safe gun owners.

There will be the group that adamantly apposes this - gun manufactures for example.

Pretty good crystallization here of why dckingsfan and I will never see eye to eye on much.

Like is there a particular reason we need to go into Trump Country and do this ethnography on the deep rooted FEELINGS of gun owners? These are the morons who have empowered the NRA and their pro-murder agenda in the first place. Let's prop them up and Let The Right Lead in the most David Brooksian can't see the forest for the trees type of way has run its course.

Newsflash: we've Let Red America Lead The Way On Guns for decades now. The entire David Brooks Baby Boomer class needs to wake up and realize they're a huge part of the problem. We're not going to keep handing the ball to the morons who caused all these problems in the first place.

Yep - we won't agree

Your approach intentionally doesn't get anything done and just leads to more politicization of the issue. More name calling. More tribalism.

Newsflash - don't include them and there wont be a solution, do you homework, if you want a constitutional amendment, what does that take? What affect did the Brady bill have?

But, maybe you are perfectly happy with having no solution?

[gtn130]

Yep - we won't agree

Your approach intentionally doesn't get anything done and just leads to more politicization of the issue. More name calling. More tribalism.

Newsflash - don't include them and there wont be a solution, do you homework, if you want a constitutional amendment, what does that take? What affect did the Brady bill have?

But, maybe you are perfectly happy with having no solution?

1) They've not only been included over the last 30+ years, they've dictated gun policy unilaterally
2) I've said this multiple times already, but we don't need a constitutional amendment to address the gun problem

The solution is to vote these people out of office - not compromise on their morally bankrupt idiocy. It will get easier as olds die off and young people like the Parkland kids start voting.

[Wizardspride]

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[Wizardspride]

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[Zonkerbl]

It's just being practical. The VERY BEST SOLUTION - which is to tax the bejeezus out of guns and use the revenue for a buyback program to reduce the number of guns in this country from 300 million to some significantly smaller number, is a flagrant violation of the 2nd amendment, if I understand correctly. So if we decide that's what we want to do, we have to take the tender feelings of those evil Trump supporters into account because we're going to need their support to do what needs to be done.

I very strongly hate the idea that the Constitution is this fricking Bible thing, the Word of Fricking God himself and immutable. Yeah it's hard to change but if everybody agrees that it needs to be changed we can change it. People believe incorrect things all the time and if you make the right argument you can change their minds and maybe change the whole fricking planet. Why limit your imagination to what is possible based off of current misconceptions about what's real and what's possible? You accomplish very little that way, that's how we've been running this country since Clinton and look where it's gotten us.

[cammac]

In the conversations I had - I started it with what kind of controls they wanted to have. They all came back with - we don't have enough background checks and these knuckleheads don't know how to use a gun.

I asked if insurance where they had to have a background check and certify that they can use a gun would work.

They then had lots of ideas on how to make it work - including classes for those that wanted to get safe. They saw it as a way to make more of them - safe gun owners.

There will be the group that adamantly apposes this - gun manufactures for example.

Pretty good crystallization here of why dckingsfan and I will never see eye to eye on much.

Like is there a particular reason we need to go into Trump Country and do this ethnography on the deep rooted FEELINGS of gun owners? These are the morons who have empowered the NRA and their pro-murder agenda in the first place. Let's prop them up and Let The Right Lead in the most David Brooksian can't see the forest for the trees type of way has run its course.

Newsflash: we've Let Red America Lead The Way On Guns for decades now. The entire David Brooks Baby Boomer class needs to wake up and realize they're a huge part of the problem. We're not going to keep handing the ball to the morons who caused all these problems in the first place.

The reality is that there is no solution to satisfy everyone but background checks, gun training, getting rid of accessories like high capacity clips, bump stocks, silencers and cop killer ammo, insurance and assault type weapons. Hardly perfect but much better than current laws!

[Zonkerbl]

In the conversations I had - I started it with what kind of controls they wanted to have. They all came back with - we don't have enough background checks and these knuckleheads don't know how to use a gun.

I asked if insurance where they had to have a background check and certify that they can use a gun would work.

They then had lots of ideas on how to make it work - including classes for those that wanted to get safe. They saw it as a way to make more of them - safe gun owners.

There will be the group that adamantly apposes this - gun manufactures for example.

Pretty good crystallization here of why dckingsfan and I will never see eye to eye on much.

Like is there a particular reason we need to go into Trump Country and do this ethnography on the deep rooted FEELINGS of gun owners? These are the morons who have empowered the NRA and their pro-murder agenda in the first place. Let's prop them up and Let The Right Lead in the most David Brooksian can't see the forest for the trees type of way has run its course.

Newsflash: we've Let Red America Lead The Way On Guns for decades now. The entire David Brooks Baby Boomer class needs to wake up and realize they're a huge part of the problem. We're not going to keep handing the ball to the morons who caused all these problems in the first place.

The reality is that there is no solution to satisfy everyone but background checks, gun training, getting rid of accessories like high capacity clips, bump stocks, silencers and cop killer ammo, insurance and assault type weapons. Hardly perfect but much better than current laws!

Gotta start somewhere. This looks like a good start. I'm not a fan of picking and choosing certain things to outlaw. Really you just need to raise the price of/reduce the availability of (same thing) guns in general.

[gtn130]

It's just being practical. The VERY BEST SOLUTION - which is to tax the bejeezus out of guns and use the revenue for a buyback program to reduce the number of guns in this country from 300 million to some significantly smaller number, is a flagrant violation of the 2nd amendment, if I understand correctly. So if we decide that's what we want to do, we have to take the tender feelings of those evil Trump supporters into account because we're going to need their support to do what needs to be done.

I very strongly hate the idea that the Constitution is this fricking Bible thing, the Word of Fricking God himself and immutable. Yeah it's hard to change but if everybody agrees that it needs to be changed we can change it. People believe incorrect things all the time and if you make the right argument you can change their minds and maybe change the whole fricking planet. Why limit your imagination to what is possible based off of current misconceptions about what's real and what's possible? You accomplish very little that way, that's how we've been running this country since Clinton and look where it's gotten us.

Ok, so you guys have some policy ideas. What has changed exactly? Policy is still controlled by Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan the last I checked.

And look: https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/21/trump-gun-control-house-republicans-419746

But House conservatives are unwilling to sign on, unless the measure is coupled with so-called “concealed-carry” legislation backed by the National Rifle Association. Combining the two ideas would have the net effect of loosening gun controls.

Congress. Won't. Pass. Anything.

You guys can keep touting your big boy policy strategies, but it's all falling on deaf ears when the GOP is controlled by the NRA. Nothing is changing at the federal level until the GOP is voted out, and that is why the better long term strategy is to move the Overton Window away from "guns are mostly all good and we should only tweak stuff" to "guns are actually bad and we need aggressive policy change" because when we have the political resources to actually make change, it can be wholesale change if we message correctly instead of playing patty cake with ideologues who operate exclusively in bad faith.

[montestewart]

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"Hey Bob, I'll meet you tomorrow around fore"



yuk yuk yuk

[stilldropin20]

Sounds like trump will leave this up to the states.


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[dckingsfan]

It's just being practical. The VERY BEST SOLUTION - which is to tax the bejeezus out of guns and use the revenue for a buyback program to reduce the number of guns in this country from 300 million to some significantly smaller number, is a flagrant violation of the 2nd amendment, if I understand correctly. So if we decide that's what we want to do, we have to take the tender feelings of those evil Trump supporters into account because we're going to need their support to do what needs to be done.

I very strongly hate the idea that the Constitution is this fricking Bible thing, the Word of Fricking God himself and immutable. Yeah it's hard to change but if everybody agrees that it needs to be changed we can change it. People believe incorrect things all the time and if you make the right argument you can change their minds and maybe change the whole fricking planet. Why limit your imagination to what is possible based off of current misconceptions about what's real and what's possible? You accomplish very little that way, that's how we've been running this country since Clinton and look where it's gotten us.

Ok, so you guys have some policy ideas. What has changed exactly? Policy is still controlled by Mitch McConnell and Paul Ryan the last I checked.

And look: https://www.politico.com/story/2018/02/21/trump-gun-control-house-republicans-419746

But House conservatives are unwilling to sign on, unless the measure is coupled with so-called “concealed-carry” legislation backed by the National Rifle Association. Combining the two ideas would have the net effect of loosening gun controls.

Congress. Won't. Pass. Anything.

You guys can keep touting your big boy policy strategies, but it's all falling on deaf ears when the GOP is controlled by the NRA. Nothing is changing at the federal level until the GOP is voted out, and that is why the better long term strategy is to move the Overton Window away from "guns are mostly all good and we should only tweak stuff" to "guns are actually bad and we need aggressive policy change" because when we have the political resources to actually make change, it can be wholesale change if we message correctly instead of playing patty cake with ideologues who operate exclusively in bad faith.

Great - let's leave it to your strategy. Chat again in 20 years or so when the demographics have changed. After all, there is no point in trying when McConnell and Ryan or Reid and Pelosi aren't willing to take on the legislation.

And you might want a majority before you start the ban all guns thing... just saying.

[stilldropin20]

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More money. More influence. Kills more babies. Than any gun.


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