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Political Roundtable Part XIII

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIII 

Post#1921 » by sfam » Fri Mar 31, 2017 1:59 pm

dckingsfan wrote:Pretty interesting Op-Ed on health care by Fareed Zakaria

While producing a CNN documentary on health-care systems around the globe, I was particularly struck by the experience of Taiwan, another free-market haven. In 1995, 41 percent of its population was uninsured and the country had very poor health outcomes. The government decided to canvass the world for the best ideas before instituting a new framework. It chose Medicare for all, a single government payer, with multiple private providers. The results are astonishing. Taiwan has achieved some of the best outcomes in the world while paying only 7 percent of its gross domestic product on health care (compared with 18 percent in the United States). I asked William Hsiao, an economist who helped devise the country’s model, what lessons they took, if any, from the United States. “You can learn what not to do from the United States rather than learn what to do,” he replied.

Americans often assume that despite its costs, American health care provides better services than others. We often hear about the waiting time for care in other countries. But according to the Commonwealth Fund, among industrialized countries the United States is in the middle of the pack for wait times, behind even Britain . Moreover, one of the world’s leading experts, Uwe Reinhardt of Princeton, has found that Americans use less care than the average for developed countries when it comes to things such as seeing a doctor and spending time in the hospital. The problem with the free market is that there is little profit in prevention and lots in crisis care.

What we learned from the US is not to let our entitlement costs run amok. That way we have a chance to provide reasonable healthcare at a reasonable cost. We are lucky that our doctors aren't as expensive, that we can negotiate costs of drugs, that you can't litigate malpractice in our country, that our doctors aren't on a fee-for-service basis, that we don't have to have expensive end-of-life care and we don't give you the option of things like MRIs.

Just helping with the quote sfam :)


You have total agreement from me that we need to bring the costs down. Single payer seems to be the way the rest of the world has found success there. Entitlement costs have to be addressed - unfortunately we can't even get the most basic of compromises done with nonpolitical issues. Instead, we have one party literally stealing the Supreme Court nominee of the other party. This is not an environment for addressing intractable problems. Until this is fixed, again as I mentioned before, I really don't see entitlements getting addressed.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIII 

Post#1922 » by dckingsfan » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:03 pm

sfam wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:Pretty interesting Op-Ed on health care by Fareed Zakaria

While producing a CNN documentary on health-care systems around the globe, I was particularly struck by the experience of Taiwan, another free-market haven. In 1995, 41 percent of its population was uninsured and the country had very poor health outcomes. The government decided to canvass the world for the best ideas before instituting a new framework. It chose Medicare for all, a single government payer, with multiple private providers. The results are astonishing. Taiwan has achieved some of the best outcomes in the world while paying only 7 percent of its gross domestic product on health care (compared with 18 percent in the United States). I asked William Hsiao, an economist who helped devise the country’s model, what lessons they took, if any, from the United States. “You can learn what not to do from the United States rather than learn what to do,” he replied.

Americans often assume that despite its costs, American health care provides better services than others. We often hear about the waiting time for care in other countries. But according to the Commonwealth Fund, among industrialized countries the United States is in the middle of the pack for wait times, behind even Britain . Moreover, one of the world’s leading experts, Uwe Reinhardt of Princeton, has found that Americans use less care than the average for developed countries when it comes to things such as seeing a doctor and spending time in the hospital. The problem with the free market is that there is little profit in prevention and lots in crisis care.

What we learned from the US is not to let our entitlement costs run amok. That way we have a chance to provide reasonable healthcare at a reasonable cost. We are lucky that our doctors aren't as expensive, that we can negotiate costs of drugs, that you can't litigate malpractice in our country, that our doctors aren't on a fee-for-service basis, that we don't have to have expensive end-of-life care and we don't give you the option of things like MRIs.

Just helping with the quote sfam :)


You have total agreement from me that we need to bring the costs down. Single payer seems to be the way the rest of the world has found success there. Entitlement costs have to be addressed - unfortunately we can't even get the most basic of compromises done with nonpolitical issues. Instead, we have one party literally stealing the Supreme Court nominee of the other party. This is not an environment for addressing intractable problems. Until this is fixed, again as I mentioned before, I really don't see entitlements getting addressed.

And yet - it is the #1 problem we have. And it isn't the single payer that created success it is the countries that took on the cost drivers that had success :)

But - back to rearranging the chairs on the ship deck.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIII 

Post#1923 » by sfam » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:03 pm



Right. That's all about intelligence gathering. I would agree with most that this seems both smarmy, unneccesary and possibly rationale for reigning in our intelligence apparatus, but it does not indicate the US was trying to influence the outcome of the French election. It says we were trying to understand the motivations of the players involved.

The reasons for this are pretty obvious - if we better understand the motivations, we can better predict the outcome, and more importantly, can modify our policy and public statements accordingly. The President or State Department speaking publicly about an issue that might have been informed from intelligence gathering, does not constitute influencing an election.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIII 

Post#1924 » by sfam » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:05 pm

dckingsfan wrote:And yet - it is the #1 problem we have. And it isn't the single payer that created success it is the countries that took on the cost drivers that had success :)

But - back to rearranging the chairs on the ship deck.

Which again gets me back to underlying systemic issues like gerrymandering and the electoral college (which makes most people's vote really not matter unless you're in a swing state). Until we have an actual representative democracy, don't be surprised if we don't address the really intractable issues.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIII 

Post#1925 » by sfam » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:09 pm

All those people talking about the nearly nonexistent Obama scandals, I'm sure you're lots happier about crocodile trump coming to fill, er, drain the swamp. Its like nonstop scandals.

We don't even get to what would be major issues, like Rance Prebious's deputy being forced out or EPA Chief Pruit caught lying to congress about not using a personal email for business purposes (YES, another Trump email scandal!!!) and is now about to have his law license yanked. Either of those two stories would be front page news.

Or the fact that US Policy just radically shifted - we no longer are calling for Assad's ouster. Literally this is Russia's position, but its totally buried.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIII 

Post#1926 » by dckingsfan » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:14 pm

sfam wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:And yet - it is the #1 problem we have. And it isn't the single payer that created success it is the countries that took on the cost drivers that had success :)

But - back to rearranging the chairs on the ship deck.

Which again gets me back to underlying systemic issues like gerrymandering and the electoral college (which makes most people's vote really not matter unless you're in a swing state). Until we have an actual representative democracy, don't be surprised if we don't address the really intractable issues.

Agreed - we are buried with two corrupt parties in a two party system. Until we have a 3rd party (which would destroy gerrymandering) we are sooooo screwed.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIII 

Post#1927 » by sfam » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:14 pm

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIII 

Post#1928 » by sfam » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:15 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
sfam wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:And yet - it is the #1 problem we have. And it isn't the single payer that created success it is the countries that took on the cost drivers that had success :)

But - back to rearranging the chairs on the ship deck.

Which again gets me back to underlying systemic issues like gerrymandering and the electoral college (which makes most people's vote really not matter unless you're in a swing state). Until we have an actual representative democracy, don't be surprised if we don't address the really intractable issues.

Agreed - we are buried with two corrupt parties in a two party system. Until we have a 3rd party (which would destroy gerrymandering) we are sooooo screwed.

On this we're totally agreed. Peter Ackerman seems to be the Billionaire using his money to break down third party barriers. I wish him luck.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIII 

Post#1929 » by dckingsfan » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:16 pm

sfam wrote:All those people talking about the nearly nonexistent Obama scandals, I'm sure you're lots happier about crocodile trump coming to fill, er, drain the swamp. Its like nonstop scandals.

We don't even get to what would be major issues, like Rance Prebious's deputy being forced out or EPA Chief Pruit caught lying to congress about not using a personal email for business purposes (YES, another Trump email scandal!!!) and is now about to have his law license yanked. Either of those two stories would be front page news.

Or the fact that US Policy just radically shifted - we no longer are calling for Assad's ouster. Literally this is Russia's position, but its totally buried.

On this we can agree - the Obama administration was really above board. I think history will prove him out as an honest forthright president.

We are literally seeing a president that does not have a clue as to how to govern.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIII 

Post#1930 » by sfam » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:27 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
sfam wrote:All those people talking about the nearly nonexistent Obama scandals, I'm sure you're lots happier about crocodile trump coming to fill, er, drain the swamp. Its like nonstop scandals.

We don't even get to what would be major issues, like Rance Prebious's deputy being forced out or EPA Chief Pruit caught lying to congress about not using a personal email for business purposes (YES, another Trump email scandal!!!) and is now about to have his law license yanked. Either of those two stories would be front page news.

Or the fact that US Policy just radically shifted - we no longer are calling for Assad's ouster. Literally this is Russia's position, but its totally buried.

On this we can agree - the Obama administration was really above board. I think history will prove him out as an honest forthright president.

We are literally seeing a president that does not have a clue as to how to govern.

Worse, Trump regularly spout horrid beliefs about the ethics and actions of people in government. Now he seems to be taking those statements as operating principles - meaning he really believed the President had the ability to tap wires, that intelligence is regularly used for political purposes, etc..

I had a really unique experience in the 90s during the Government shutdown. The only work my company could find for me was at Naval Air Warfare Center (NAWC) Indianapolis, which was getting privatized and bought out by Hughes Aerospace. NAWC Indy was a huge facility in SW Indianapolis that did large prototype runs of various manufacturing things from printed circuit wireing boards, 3D prototypes, bomb dropping devices and whatnot.

When it was privatized, all of the government workers would either be let go or hired as Hughes employees. This led to sort of a crazy Lord of the Flies type situation where a decent minority of government workers were trying to prove their worth. A number of them started doing the slimiest type actions that they "thought" private industry regularly engaged in. Yes, sometimes it does, but the average contractor rarely is doing those actions. Backstabbing, hiding information, creating fake controversies - its like by becoming a contractor in a weird circumstance in a stressful environment, they threw away their "government ethics" in hopes of getting a better position.

The rationale literally was that people do this all the time in private industry. Not True. Nor is it true that Washington ever works the way Trump implies.There is no swamp draining happening. The real corruption has just arrived in Washington.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIII 

Post#1931 » by AFM » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:29 pm

Louise Mensch's SMOKING GUN today: Flynn, in an email to a young female Russian student he met in Cambridge, referred to himself as General Misha (Russian for "Mike")!!!!!! GOT HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIII 

Post#1932 » by Induveca » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:55 pm

AFM wrote:Louise Mensch's SMOKING GUN today: Flynn, in an email to a young female Russian student he met in Cambridge, referred to himself as General Misha (Russian for "Mike")!!!!!! GOT HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Mensch's Twitter has become my comedy outlet.

Her old Corbyn stuff was gold. She labeled everyone who voted for him an anti-Semite....then was caught in a Gary Johnson like moment having no idea what Zionism meant.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIII 

Post#1933 » by sfam » Fri Mar 31, 2017 2:58 pm

Induveca wrote:
AFM wrote:Louise Mensch's SMOKING GUN today: Flynn, in an email to a young female Russian student he met in Cambridge, referred to himself as General Misha (Russian for "Mike")!!!!!! GOT HIM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Mensch's Twitter has become my comedy outlet.

Her old Corbyn stuff was gold. She labeled everyone who voted for him an anti-Semite....then was caught in a Gary Johnson like moment having no idea what Zionism meant.

I honestly don't understand why people follow publicity hounds like this. Whatever your politics and POV on Trump, why fill your head with what clearly is complete nonsense? Even if a small percentage turns out to be accurate, will you really remember which ones were true or false? Isn't it more likely that you sort of believe the overall "feel" of her views, and thus having less a sense of what is actually factually accurate?
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIII 

Post#1934 » by FAH1223 » Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:00 pm

sfam wrote:OK, so this is new. Are you stating the CIA tried to influence the French election? Would love some links to that.

Again, Russia can interfere with an election but not result in getting it overturned, but if you follow what Russia did here in the US, they have a lot of different tools - hacking is merely one. Far greater seems to be their ability to flood social media with bots and paid trolls. They apparently did this against Trump's opponents in the Republican primary as well.

I really don't understand why people aren't concerned about this. Influencing foreign elections is far worse than hacking into accounts. The US had done this in the past in Central and South America, but I think those days are as long past as the Soviet Union.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/cia-spied-french-elections_us_58a75f43e4b0fa149f9ac5a3

Russian intelligence certainly did try to hack every U.S. government or political server they could find. That’s their job. The U.S. does the same thing to Russia. That’s our job (although the U.S. is probably better at it than the Russians).

Of course, Russia tried to influence the U.S. election. They’ve been interfering in elections around the world since the Comintern (short for “Communist International”) was established by Lenin in 1919.

The U.S. is just as active in influencing foreign elections and foreign governments. The U.S. backed the assassination of Ngô Đình Diệm, president of South Vietnam, in November 1963. The entire Japanese Diet was on a CIA payroll from 1950–70. The U.S. was influential in fomenting civil unrest in Ukraine in 2014. This led to the Russian reaction in Crimea and eastern Ukraine.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIII 

Post#1935 » by gtn130 » Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:13 pm

FAH1223 wrote:
sfam wrote:OK, so this is new. Are you stating the CIA tried to influence the French election? Would love some links to that.

Again, Russia can interfere with an election but not result in getting it overturned, but if you follow what Russia did here in the US, they have a lot of different tools - hacking is merely one. Far greater seems to be their ability to flood social media with bots and paid trolls. They apparently did this against Trump's opponents in the Republican primary as well.

I really don't understand why people aren't concerned about this. Influencing foreign elections is far worse than hacking into accounts. The US had done this in the past in Central and South America, but I think those days are as long past as the Soviet Union.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/cia-spied-french-elections_us_58a75f43e4b0fa149f9ac5a3

Russian intelligence certainly did try to hack every U.S. government or political server they could find. That’s their job. The U.S. does the same thing to Russia. That’s our job (although the U.S. is probably better at it than the Russians).

Of course, Russia tried to influence the U.S. election. They’ve been interfering in elections around the world since the Comintern (short for “Communist International”) was established by Lenin in 1919.

The U.S. is just as active in influencing foreign elections and foreign governments. The U.S. backed the assassination of Ngô Đình Diệm, president of South Vietnam, in November 1963. The entire Japanese Diet was on a CIA payroll from 1950–70. The U.S. was influential in fomenting civil unrest in Ukraine in 2014. This led to the Russian reaction in Crimea and eastern Ukraine.


What's the point here? CIA doing bad stuff doesn't legitimize anything Russia is doing.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIII 

Post#1936 » by sfam » Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:15 pm

FAH1223 wrote:
sfam wrote:OK, so this is new. Are you stating the CIA tried to influence the French election? Would love some links to that.

Again, Russia can interfere with an election but not result in getting it overturned, but if you follow what Russia did here in the US, they have a lot of different tools - hacking is merely one. Far greater seems to be their ability to flood social media with bots and paid trolls. They apparently did this against Trump's opponents in the Republican primary as well.

I really don't understand why people aren't concerned about this. Influencing foreign elections is far worse than hacking into accounts. The US had done this in the past in Central and South America, but I think those days are as long past as the Soviet Union.


http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/cia-spied-french-elections_us_58a75f43e4b0fa149f9ac5a3

Russian intelligence certainly did try to hack every U.S. government or political server they could find. That’s their job. The U.S. does the same thing to Russia. That’s our job (although the U.S. is probably better at it than the Russians).

Of course, Russia tried to influence the U.S. election. They’ve been interfering in elections around the world since the Comintern (short for “Communist International”) was established by Lenin in 1919.

The U.S. is just as active in influencing foreign elections and foreign governments. The U.S. backed the assassination of Ngô Đình Diệm, president of South Vietnam, in November 1963. The entire Japanese Diet was on a CIA payroll from 1950–70. The U.S. was influential in fomenting civil unrest in Ukraine in 2014. This led to the Russian reaction in Crimea and eastern Ukraine.


Simply stating the US did this in the past during the cold war is not evidence of engaging in these activities in current time.

I would love to see evidence showing the US fomented anything that took place in 2014. That is a Russian talking point, without basis.

In terms of Russian stories that the US was fomenting tensions in the Ukraine, I was actually involved in one of those US Influencing Ukraine news stories in 2012-2013. I created this really cool small group discussion format workshop for the US State Department that gets local technologists and local civil society participants together to learn how to apply low cost technologies for civil society purposes (i've done these all over the world), in this case, educational NGOs focused on global problems like environmental issues or after school education programs. We ended up doing follow-on events in Donesk and Kharkiv (now completely destroyed and taken over by Russian agents). Russia actually criticized this, and for a follow-up event got a rent-a-crowd to literally break down the gates of the event and stop it from taking place.

Here's an except of a news story for this -this is literally my creation they are discussing. Master spy I am not.

For instance, even something as a seemingly innocuous “TechCamp” acted as a front for the color revolution apparatus in Ukraine. While the “TechCamp” concept is one that is presented as bringing influential and important members of the public together with members of the technology community for the purposes of greater training and understanding, the truth is that these “TechCamps” are actually operations used to disseminate methodologies for the implementation of color revolutions throughout the target country.

This was recognized early on by Oleg Tsarev, former Deputy of Ukraine and now a member of the separatist parliament in Eastern Ukraine. In November, 2013, before he was ousted from his position in the Ukrainian government, Tsarev attempted to warn the Rada of the involvement of the West with the protests taking off in Ukraine and the use of the “TechCamp” as a tool of destabilization.



Listening to the press reports and talking to one of the TechTrainers there, it was clear the crowd had no idea why they were there, other than that they had to stop a "Unkraining Arab Spring" from happening. This was certainly one of the stories Russia pushed that the US was influencing Ukraine's election.

I can tell you from my time there, there were huge tensions between Eastern Ukrainians, who only would only speak Russian, and Western Ukrainians, who only wanted to speak Ukrainian. There were literally demonstrations happening in Ukraine when I was there. Corruption is a huge thing there, and the Russian supported President literally had a gold toilet. The US was not the cause of Ukraine, regardless what Putin says or believes.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIII 

Post#1937 » by DCZards » Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:22 pm

sfam wrote:I honestly don't understand why people follow publicity hounds like this. Whatever your politics and POV on Trump, why fill your head with what clearly is complete nonsense? Even if a small percentage turns out to be accurate, will you really remember which ones were true or false? Isn't it more likely that you sort of believe the overall "feel" of her views, and thus having less a sense of what is actually factually accurate?


Are you talking about Louise Mensch or Sean Hannity? Or both? :D
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIII 

Post#1938 » by sfam » Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:27 pm

Cool Ukraine shots from my trip just because

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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIII 

Post#1939 » by sfam » Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:27 pm

DCZards wrote:
sfam wrote:I honestly don't understand why people follow publicity hounds like this. Whatever your politics and POV on Trump, why fill your head with what clearly is complete nonsense? Even if a small percentage turns out to be accurate, will you really remember which ones were true or false? Isn't it more likely that you sort of believe the overall "feel" of her views, and thus having less a sense of what is actually factually accurate?


Are you talking about Louise Mensch or Sean Hannity? Or both? :D

Definitely both.
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Re: Political Roundtable Part XIII 

Post#1940 » by dckingsfan » Fri Mar 31, 2017 3:37 pm

gtn130 wrote:What's the point here? CIA doing bad stuff doesn't legitimize anything Russia is doing.

Um, I think you are missing the point a bit.

It isn't that Russia was trying to influence our election - they have been trying to do so for quite some time. And yes, we have been trying to do that in many countries ourselves (and yes, recently).

The point is: if there was collaboration between the Russians and someone in the US (Trump's campaign staff), that takes it to a whole new level. That is collaborating with the enemy.

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