Political Roundtable Part XIV

[Pointgod]

I've been lurking on this thread for a while but if you don't mind, allow me to provide another perspective from a non American. In regards to the whole violence vs non violence once you try to shift the focus on peaceful protesters or antifa then you've already conceded to the right. It doesn't matter what the anti racist protesters do, the simple fact that they protest pissed off the right and Trump. Just look at his response to the women's march protesters and people that protested during his inauguration.

If you believe that Black Lives Matter is a violent movement then you've already succumbed to right wing propaganda. I agree with whoever talked about how the civil rights movement wouldn't work today. If Dr. King were alive today Foxnews, Breitbart and all the other right wing propaganda outlets would call him a race hustler, agitator and unAmerican. Dr. King's views have been whitewashed over the years but he understood how violence was the tool of the oppressed.

Ultimately the non violence vs violence is pointless because no one is expecting the KKK, white supremacists and Nazis to peacefully protest because we know that their whole ideology and doctrine is based in violence. Therefore it's reasonable to expect people facing Nazis to protect themselves. The burden of peaceful protest should be placed on the white supremacists.

[I_Like_Dirt]

double chin: check
nasty ass yellowed white polo: check
undershirt larger than the polo it's under: check
nerdy glasses with transition lenses: check

adolf is disappointed in you, kill ya self dunny

when you want to start a new ethnostate but you can't even do your laundry

Hitler was clearly the epitome of the blond-haired blue eyed master race and those guys are just following in his image. And besides, Hitler wasn't so bad - he did kill Hitler after all.

[gtn130]

I've been lurking on this thread for a while but if you don't mind, allow me to provide another perspective from a non American. In regards to the whole violence vs non violence once you try to shift the focus on peaceful protesters or antifa then you've already conceded to the right. It doesn't matter what the anti racist protesters do, the simple fact that they protest pissed off the right and Trump. Just look at his response to the women's march protesters and people that protested during his inauguration.

If you believe that Black Lives Matter is a violent movement then you've already succumbed to right wing propaganda. I agree with whoever talked about how the civil rights movement wouldn't work today. If Dr. King were alive today Foxnews, Breitbart and all the other right wing propaganda outlets would call him a race hustler, agitator and unAmerican. Dr. King's views have been whitewashed over the years but he understood how violence was the tool of the oppressed.

Ultimately the non violence vs violence is pointless because no one is expecting the KKK, white supremacists and Nazis to peacefully protest because we know that their whole ideology and doctrine is based in violence. Therefore it's reasonable to expect people facing Nazis to protect themselves. The burden of peaceful protest should be placed on the white supremacists.

This is what you call a good post

[Zonkerbl]

Alright, let me explain myself a little.

At *this particular point* in history, where we have the 2018 elections right around the corner, the alt-right is in full "stir up our base" mode. They've decided to do it by having a bunch of brazen neo-nazi demonstrations, so that Antifa will show up and beat them up. Then they'll show pictures of Alt-left violence from now until November 2018.

I forget if I said this here or on facebook so forgive me if I'm repeating myself, but *the most important* thing to do right now is get the fascists out of power. That means getting the Republicans out of Congress and Trump and Pence out of the White House.

From now until November 2018, we need to turn the other cheek. Once we've taken the country back we can kick their asses all we want.

I'm definitely not saying peaceful demonstration is the silver bullet that will defeat nazism. If Trump and Bannon and the other fascists force us into a civil war, we're going to have to fight. And it will be our patriotic duty to fight. But let's just cross that bridge when we come to it.

[gtn130]

Imagine if some extremist cleric was posting up at mosques begging people to join him in suicide bombing various densely populated city centers.

Imagine everyone knew about it, saw him doing it, and were collectively like, "Meh, free speech, folks! 1A everybody! Many sides! Many, many sides!"

Nazism is just as violent and hateful as xyz brand of extremism. They want to exterminate people they hate. They will do it if they have the power to do so.

[I_Like_Dirt]

Nazism is just as violent and hateful as xyz brand of extremism. They want to exterminate people they hate. They will do it if they have the power to do so.

Zonk's point here is that getting involved in violent confrontation at this point actually risks giving the Nazis more power to do so. In your hypothetical scenario about looking for suicide bombers, if creating a violent protest would result in more people being convinced to become suicide bombers, then it might not be the greatest strategy there, either.

[gtn130]

Nazism is just as violent and hateful as xyz brand of extremism. They want to exterminate people they hate. They will do it if they have the power to do so.

Zonk's point here is that getting involved in violent confrontation at this point actually risks giving the Nazis more power to do so. In your hypothetical scenario about looking for suicide bombers, if creating a violent protest would result in more people being convinced to become suicide bombers, then it might not be the greatest strategy there, either.

I'm not advocating that protestors should necessarily get in violent confrontation with Nazis, although I wouldn't criticize them for it.

That said, we hunt, arrest, murder, drone strike, electrocute, bomb, and invade ISIS sympathizers. I do believe Nazis should be treated the way other terrorist groups are treated in this country because their objectives are functionally the same.

Patting Nazis on the back and telling them they are loved will not work. They're extremists. Trump being in office is emboldening them, and this is why our actions today need to be different.

[Zonkerbl]

Well here's a good idea:

Read on Twitter

[Zonkerbl]

Nazism is just as violent and hateful as xyz brand of extremism. They want to exterminate people they hate. They will do it if they have the power to do so.

Zonk's point here is that getting involved in violent confrontation at this point actually risks giving the Nazis more power to do so. In your hypothetical scenario about looking for suicide bombers, if creating a violent protest would result in more people being convinced to become suicide bombers, then it might not be the greatest strategy there, either.

I'm not advocating that protestors should necessarily get in violent confrontation with Nazis, although I wouldn't criticize them for it.

That said, we hunt, arrest, murder, drone strike, electrocute, bomb, and invade ISIS sympathizers. I do believe Nazis should be treated the way other terrorist groups are treated in this country because their objectives are functionally the same.

Patting Nazis on the back and telling them they are loved will not work. They're extremists. Trump being in office is emboldening them, and this is why our actions today need to be different.

I'm not getting how you're getting from "show up and counterprotest, but don't throw any punches" to "pat Nazis on the back and telling them they are loved"

[Zonkerbl]

That surreal moment when your political discussion board goes from arguing about whether electing Trump would be a good idea to arguing what is the best way to fight the Nazis

[I_Like_Dirt]

That said, we hunt, arrest, murder, drone strike, electrocute, bomb, and invade ISIS sympathizers. I do believe Nazis should be treated the way other terrorist groups are treated in this country because their objectives are functionally the same.

How's the war on terrorism going these days, anyway? Given how long it's been ongoing and that you're now proposing we use those methods elsewhere, I have to assume it's working out pretty well overall.

[montestewart]

That surreal moment when your political discussion board goes from arguing about whether electing Trump would be a good idea to arguing what is the best way to fight the Nazis

Though in hindsight, it all makes sense. It's like a slippery slope that you didn't realize was either slippery or a slope until you got to the bottom.

[gtn130]

That said, we hunt, arrest, murder, drone strike, electrocute, bomb, and invade ISIS sympathizers. I do believe Nazis should be treated the way other terrorist groups are treated in this country because their objectives are functionally the same.

How's the war on terrorism going these days, anyway? Given how long it's been ongoing and that you're now proposing we use those methods elsewhere, I have to assume it's working out pretty well overall.

u wot m8

I'm fairly certain the geopolitical calculus of invading Iraq and Afghanistan is a little different than arresting Nazis in the US. Can't know for sure, but I think they MIGHT be a little different.

I actually don't even know how to follow this equivalency you're drawing. Do you think I'm advocating for the US to invade and occupy Germany? Or invade and occupy...Charlottesville? *thinking face emoji*

[Zonkerbl]

yeah I'm not about to advocate for drone strikes on US citizens on US soil. Nuh uh.

[gtn130]

yeah I'm not about to advocate for drone strikes on US citizens on US soil. Nuh uh.

Yeah but I'm obviously not advocating for that. I was pointing out how different the perception of 'domestic terrorists' is when they're white Americans vs non-white muslims.

Like, DHS, NSA, FBI, local police forces, they have billions of dollars allocated to monitoring and arresting domestic terrorists. Nazis should totally be bracketed in the 'terrorist' group and should pretty much be arrested instantaneously and treated like extreme threats to the communities around them. If you want to obfuscate and talk about the legitimacy of invading Afghanistan or whatever, feel free, but that's not the conversation I'm having.

You guys acts like a Nazi didn't just ram a car into a crowd of unarmed civilians last weekend.

[gtn130]

Well here's a good idea:

Read on Twitter

This is cool, but Merkel isn't many-sidesing Nazism afaik

[Ruzious]

yeah I'm not about to advocate for drone strikes on US citizens on US soil. Nuh uh.

Yeah but I'm obviously not advocating for that. I was pointing out how different the perception of 'domestic terrorists' is when they're white Americans vs non-white muslims.

Like, DHS, NSA, FBI, local police forces, they have billions of dollars allocated to monitoring and arresting domestic terrorists. Nazis should totally be bracketed in the 'terrorist' group and should pretty much be arrested instantaneously and treated like extreme threats to the communities around them. If you want to obfuscate and talk about the legitimacy of invading Afghanistan or whatever, feel free, but that's not the conversation I'm having.

You guys acts like a Nazi didn't just ram a car into a crowd of unarmed civilians last weekend.

Here's why I don't think there will be much violence. I think Trump has messed this up so poorly to so many Americans that there is a very strong anti Nazi movement developing throughout the country from people of all colors and religions - that the next marches from these pieces of garbage will be met with crowds of good guys 50 to 100 times larger than they are. They'll see how out-numbered they are, and they will turn and run.

[DCZards]

yeah I'm not about to advocate for drone strikes on US citizens on US soil. Nuh uh.

Yeah but I'm obviously not advocating for that. I was pointing out how different the perception of 'domestic terrorists' is when they're white Americans vs non-white muslims.

Like, DHS, NSA, FBI, local police forces, they have billions of dollars allocated to monitoring and arresting domestic terrorists. Nazis should totally be bracketed in the 'terrorist' group and should pretty much be arrested instantaneously and treated like extreme threats to the communities around them. If you want to obfuscate and talk about the legitimacy of invading Afghanistan or whatever, feel free, but that's not the conversation I'm having.

You guys acts like a Nazi didn't just ram a car into a crowd of unarmed civilians last weekend.

I hate the Nazis and what they stand for as much as you do. But there's this thing called the First Amendment and you can't round up and arrest people simply for marching or for what they say.

Yes, when they directly threaten or terrorize people or commit a crime you go after them and lock their butts up. But arresting people "instantaneously" simply because they profess to be Nazis or white supremacists would be wrong...and a violation of the rights that we all cherish.

[gtn130]

yeah I'm not about to advocate for drone strikes on US citizens on US soil. Nuh uh.

Yeah but I'm obviously not advocating for that. I was pointing out how different the perception of 'domestic terrorists' is when they're white Americans vs non-white muslims.

Like, DHS, NSA, FBI, local police forces, they have billions of dollars allocated to monitoring and arresting domestic terrorists. Nazis should totally be bracketed in the 'terrorist' group and should pretty much be arrested instantaneously and treated like extreme threats to the communities around them. If you want to obfuscate and talk about the legitimacy of invading Afghanistan or whatever, feel free, but that's not the conversation I'm having.

You guys acts like a Nazi didn't just ram a car into a crowd of unarmed civilians last weekend.

I hate the Nazis and what they stand for as much as you do. But there's this thing called the First Amendment and you can't round up and arrest people simply for marching or for what they say.

Yes, when they directly threaten or terrorize people or commit a crime you go after them and lock their butts up. But arresting people "instantaneously" simply because they profess to be Nazis or white supremacists would be wrong...and a violation of the rights that we all cherish.

Why is it that domestic terrorists pledge their support for ISIS on the day of their attack and not before?

It's not a slippery slope. We all sleep fine at night without the ability to publicly pledge support to ISIS or whatever

[gtn130]

yeah I'm not about to advocate for drone strikes on US citizens on US soil. Nuh uh.

Yeah but I'm obviously not advocating for that. I was pointing out how different the perception of 'domestic terrorists' is when they're white Americans vs non-white muslims.

Like, DHS, NSA, FBI, local police forces, they have billions of dollars allocated to monitoring and arresting domestic terrorists. Nazis should totally be bracketed in the 'terrorist' group and should pretty much be arrested instantaneously and treated like extreme threats to the communities around them. If you want to obfuscate and talk about the legitimacy of invading Afghanistan or whatever, feel free, but that's not the conversation I'm having.

You guys acts like a Nazi didn't just ram a car into a crowd of unarmed civilians last weekend.

Here's why I don't think there will be much violence. I think Trump has messed this up so poorly to so many Americans that there is a very strong anti Nazi movement developing throughout the country from people of all colors and religions - that the next marches from these pieces of garbage will be met with crowds of good guys 50 to 100 times larger than they are. They'll see how out-numbered they are, and they will turn and run.

We also thought Hillary would win the election.