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Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVI

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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVI 

Post#1941 » by youngWizzy » Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:18 pm

dckingsfan wrote:

Porter/Mahimni for Randolph/Shumpert/Koufos and Sac's 2022 first round pick?


Why? This is so bad for the Wizards. Very very bad in fact. The Wizard's wont even get any of the following: 1. Cauley-Stein 2. A first round pick or 3. Harry Giles? So what if this is a salary dump move. This move is horrible.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVI 

Post#1942 » by 80sballboy » Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:21 pm

Otto is expected to play Saturday

Read on Twitter
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVI 

Post#1943 » by Ruzious » Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:26 pm

I've got an "EG fix his mistakes trade" that gets us out of lux tax hell AND gives us a chance to get to the playoffs and not get blown out in the first round. Of course, it does involve giving up a 1st round pick - but hey, Ernie doesn't mind - he keeps his job:

Sacramento has a somewhat unknown 6'10 PF who's leading the NBA in 3 point shooting percentage - Nemanja Bjelica. He's 30, so he's not a major part of their future, but he can help a team like the Wiz this season. Wiz get Bjeiica and Shumpert (who's better than Oubre now and expiring) for Oubre, Mahinmi, and a 1st. Wiz save a TON of money and get better short-term. Sac gives Oubre a chance and get a 1st.

And EG gets to say he's doing this to get a big to take Howard's minutes.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVI 

Post#1944 » by queridiculo » Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:33 pm

80sballboy wrote:Otto is expected to play Saturday

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Yeah, for the Kings :lol:
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVI 

Post#1945 » by 80sballboy » Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:48 pm

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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVI 

Post#1946 » by Eli Babak » Fri Nov 30, 2018 10:58 pm

Oh man... Goodbye Otto and screw Grunfeld. :(
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVI 

Post#1947 » by FAH1223 » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:45 pm

nate33 wrote:
FAH1223 wrote:
Read on Twitter

I don't have Insider.

What is the TL;DR version? Specifically, does the article shed any more light on the trade kicker and how it's a poison pill?

And why is the trade window closing, other than his cap hit jumping from $18M to $37M? (And that may not be such a problem given how many teams with max cap room who may strike out on the few max-caliber talents out there.)


Spoiler:
When is the best time for Washington to trade John Wall?

NBA teams remain uncertain about the trade bonus in John Wall's contract, league sources confirmed to ESPN. As Adrian Wojnarowski reported earlier this month, the All-Star point guard -- along with the rest of the Washington Wizards' roster -- is available to discuss in trade scenarios.

Interest in Wall is close to nonexistent around the league, per sources. Still, teams are going through the complicated exercise of trying to understand how a Wall trade would even work.

"There is a 99 percent chance that we would not trade for Wall, but I need to be prepared for that 1 percent," one team executive told ESPN.

Here's what's going on behind the scenes, both for opposing teams and the Wizards.




Breaking down the bonus


The bonus calls for Wall to be paid 15 percent of what is owed on his contract if he's traded.

If Wall were dealt now, the trade kicker theoretically could include his remaining $14.3 million for this season and $123.6 million of his supermax that is set to begin in 2019-20 -- resulting in an extra $20.68 million. (Wall's $47.3 million player option for 2022-23 is excluded here.)

For salary-cap purposes, $5.17 million would be added to each season of Wall's deal for the team acquiring him (excluding 2022-23), but Washington would be on the hook to pay Wall the full amount in a lump sum that would surpass his 2018-19 salary.

For salary-matching purposes in a trade, Wall's contract would be considered $24.3 million of outgoing money for a new team and $19.2 million for Washington:

Wall contract with supermax trade kicker
Year Salary Bonus Total
2018-19 $19.16 $5.17 $24.33
2019-20 $38.15 $5.17 $43.32
2020-21 $41.20 $5.17 $46.37
2021-22 $44.25 $5.17 $49.42
2022-23 $47.30 N/A $47.30*
Overall: $210.74
*Player option; all salary/bonus figures in millions






Why the confusion?


Here's the sticking point: There's no way for Wall to receive that $20.68 million without surpassing the maximum salary threshold in the collective bargaining agreement.

Supermax rules prohibit the first year of a contract from exceeding 35 percent of the salary cap, which would be the case for Wall's deal with an extra $5.17 million next season. But Wall would also exceed the max salary this season by applying the full amount of his bonus to 2018-19.

There's no precedent for this, and it's something both the league and the players' union didn't see coming during CBA negotiations. After all, the goal of the high-priced supermax was to give teams a clear path to retain franchise players long term -- not trade them before the extension even begins.

Of course, Wall could elect to waive the trade bonus, and the situation would be resolved. The Wizards also could wait to trade him until after July 1, and the bonus would be voided, since he'll be making the maximum possible salary by that point.



The likely outcome
If Wall is traded this season, the consensus among teams consulted by ESPN is that his 15 percent bonus will only be applied to the remaining salary owed in 2018-19. That's $2.1 million -- paid by Washington but falling on the new team's cap sheet -- which would be added to Wall's $19.2 million as outgoing salary.

There would be no additional salary added to the three years of his supermax extension:



Wall contract with 2018-19 trade kicker
Year Salary Bonus Total
2018-19 $19.16 $2.14 $21.30
2019-20 $38.15 N/A $38.15
2020-21 $41.20 N/A $41.20
2021-22 $44.25 N/A $44.25
2022-23 $47.30 N/A $47.30*
Overall: $191.2
*Player option; all salary/bonus figures in millions


With Wall on the trade block, expect the league and the union to eventually provide clarity here.





The closing trade window
The trade market for Wall will not get better this summer, despite 12 teams having at least $25 million in projected cap space.

Here are two questions that I asked league executives regarding Wall's trade value.

1. If the guard were a free agent in 2019, would you sign him to a four-year, $171 million contract (his supermax deal)?

2. Is the Wall contract tradable in the offseason?

There was a clear consensus on both questions: No.

"Granted, every player in this league can be traded, but the Wall extension right now is the toughest contract I have seen a team try to move in 20 years," one team executive told ESPN. "I couldn't look my owner in the eye and tell him there is value with the player even if we didn't have to trade anything of significance."

Front offices have learned from their mistakes of overspending in 2016, and they're likely to take a conservative approach when committing to long-term salary. Yes, Kevin Durant, Klay Thompson, Kyrie Irving and Kawhi Leonard will likely get max deals, but there's more fear this time around about overpaying borderline stars and starters.

More Than An Athlete
The eight-part docuseries, produced by UNINTERRUPTED and airing on ESPN+, will follow LeBron James and Maverick Carter's improbable journey from Akron to the global stage. Watch on ESPN+



Despite the salary cap being projected to increase from $101.8 million to $109 million in 2019 and then $118 million in 2020, teams do not have an appetite for tying up 35 percent of their money in a point guard who has carried a heavy workload (35.9 MPG since 2010-11) without signs of future franchise-player-level production.

So even with the uncertainty surrounding Wall's trade bonus, his current $19.2 million salary is more movable than when it spikes to $38.2 million in July. Not only will teams balk at trading Wall into their cap space, but the capped out teams will also be stuck. Around 49 percent of NBA players are projected to be free agents this summer. Cobbling together $30.5 million in contracts to facilitate a Wall trade is next to impossible.

If there is an outside chance for Washington to move Wall, it is before the Feb. 7 trade deadline to a team that views Wall as an All-Star and has a void at point guard. The Phoenix Suns might be the only team that fits. (Keep in mind the Boston Celtics and Minnesota Timberwolves are prohibited from trading for Wall this season while they have players -- Kyrie Irving, Karl-Anthony Towns and Andrew Wiggins -- on similar designated rookie extensions.)





What approach should the front office take?
There is a for-sale sign attached to the Wizards' roster, but Washington is only 1.5 games out of the Eastern Conference playoffs despite an 8-13 record. If general manager Ernie Grunfeld is thinking short term, a weak conference will allow his team to stay in the postseason hunt despite underachieving early. That line of thinking would be buoyed by the belief that making the playoffs would dispel the cloud hanging over this franchise.

Having been in a similar situation in Brooklyn with Deron Williams, that does not work.

There was a trade proposal in December 2013 that would have given the Nets much-needed future cap relief without improving the basketball product. At the time, Brooklyn was 8-15, had the highest payroll in the NBA and looked listless in losses -- similar to what is going on in Washington.

Instead, the offer was turned down and Brooklyn averaged 41 wins in 2013-14 and 2014-15, reaching the playoffs but not advancing further than the second round. Williams was bought out of his contract in July 2015.

The lesson learned? Thinking big picture outweighs being mediocre. If a future-friendly offer for Wall emerges, the Wizards should take i
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVI 

Post#1948 » by Dat2U » Fri Nov 30, 2018 11:59 pm

FAH1223 wrote:
nate33 wrote:
FAH1223 wrote:
Read on Twitter

I don't have Insider.

What is the TL;DR version? Specifically, does the article shed any more light on the trade kicker and how it's a poison pill?

And why is the trade window closing, other than his cap hit jumping from $18M to $37M? (And that may not be such a problem given how many teams with max cap room who may strike out on the few max-caliber talents out there.)


Spoiler:
When is the best time for Washington to trade John Wall?

NBA teams remain uncertain about the trade bonus in John Wall's contract, league sources confirmed to ESPN. As Adrian Wojnarowski reported earlier this month, the All-Star point guard -- along with the rest of the Washington Wizards' roster -- is available to discuss in trade scenarios.

Interest in Wall is close to nonexistent around the league, per sources. Still, teams are going through the complicated exercise of trying to understand how a Wall trade would even work.

"There is a 99 percent chance that we would not trade for Wall, but I need to be prepared for that 1 percent," one team executive told ESPN.

Here's what's going on behind the scenes, both for opposing teams and the Wizards.




Breaking down the bonus


The bonus calls for Wall to be paid 15 percent of what is owed on his contract if he's traded.

If Wall were dealt now, the trade kicker theoretically could include his remaining $14.3 million for this season and $123.6 million of his supermax that is set to begin in 2019-20 -- resulting in an extra $20.68 million. (Wall's $47.3 million player option for 2022-23 is excluded here.)

For salary-cap purposes, $5.17 million would be added to each season of Wall's deal for the team acquiring him (excluding 2022-23), but Washington would be on the hook to pay Wall the full amount in a lump sum that would surpass his 2018-19 salary.

For salary-matching purposes in a trade, Wall's contract would be considered $24.3 million of outgoing money for a new team and $19.2 million for Washington:

Wall contract with supermax trade kicker
Year Salary Bonus Total
2018-19 $19.16 $5.17 $24.33
2019-20 $38.15 $5.17 $43.32
2020-21 $41.20 $5.17 $46.37
2021-22 $44.25 $5.17 $49.42
2022-23 $47.30 N/A $47.30*
Overall: $210.74
*Player option; all salary/bonus figures in millions






Why the confusion?


Here's the sticking point: There's no way for Wall to receive that $20.68 million without surpassing the maximum salary threshold in the collective bargaining agreement.

Supermax rules prohibit the first year of a contract from exceeding 35 percent of the salary cap, which would be the case for Wall's deal with an extra $5.17 million next season. But Wall would also exceed the max salary this season by applying the full amount of his bonus to 2018-19.

There's no precedent for this, and it's something both the league and the players' union didn't see coming during CBA negotiations. After all, the goal of the high-priced supermax was to give teams a clear path to retain franchise players long term -- not trade them before the extension even begins.

Of course, Wall could elect to waive the trade bonus, and the situation would be resolved. The Wizards also could wait to trade him until after July 1, and the bonus would be voided, since he'll be making the maximum possible salary by that point.



The likely outcome
If Wall is traded this season, the consensus among teams consulted by ESPN is that his 15 percent bonus will only be applied to the remaining salary owed in 2018-19. That's $2.1 million -- paid by Washington but falling on the new team's cap sheet -- which would be added to Wall's $19.2 million as outgoing salary.

There would be no additional salary added to the three years of his supermax extension:



Wall contract with 2018-19 trade kicker
Year Salary Bonus Total
2018-19 $19.16 $2.14 $21.30
2019-20 $38.15 N/A $38.15
2020-21 $41.20 N/A $41.20
2021-22 $44.25 N/A $44.25
2022-23 $47.30 N/A $47.30*
Overall: $191.2
*Player option; all salary/bonus figures in millions


With Wall on the trade block, expect the league and the union to eventually provide clarity here.





The closing trade window
The trade market for Wall will not get better this summer, despite 12 teams having at least $25 million in projected cap space.

Here are two questions that I asked league executives regarding Wall's trade value.

1. If the guard were a free agent in 2019, would you sign him to a four-year, $171 million contract (his supermax deal)?

2. Is the Wall contract tradable in the offseason?

There was a clear consensus on both questions: No.

"Granted, every player in this league can be traded, but the Wall extension right now is the toughest contract I have seen a team try to move in 20 years," one team executive told ESPN. "I couldn't look my owner in the eye and tell him there is value with the player even if we didn't have to trade anything of significance."

Front offices have learned from their mistakes of overspending in 2016, and they're likely to take a conservative approach when committing to long-term salary. Yes, Kevin Durant, Klay Thompson, Kyrie Irving and Kawhi Leonard will likely get max deals, but there's more fear this time around about overpaying borderline stars and starters.

More Than An Athlete
The eight-part docuseries, produced by UNINTERRUPTED and airing on ESPN+, will follow LeBron James and Maverick Carter's improbable journey from Akron to the global stage. Watch on ESPN+



Despite the salary cap being projected to increase from $101.8 million to $109 million in 2019 and then $118 million in 2020, teams do not have an appetite for tying up 35 percent of their money in a point guard who has carried a heavy workload (35.9 MPG since 2010-11) without signs of future franchise-player-level production.

So even with the uncertainty surrounding Wall's trade bonus, his current $19.2 million salary is more movable than when it spikes to $38.2 million in July. Not only will teams balk at trading Wall into their cap space, but the capped out teams will also be stuck. Around 49 percent of NBA players are projected to be free agents this summer. Cobbling together $30.5 million in contracts to facilitate a Wall trade is next to impossible.

If there is an outside chance for Washington to move Wall, it is before the Feb. 7 trade deadline to a team that views Wall as an All-Star and has a void at point guard. The Phoenix Suns might be the only team that fits. (Keep in mind the Boston Celtics and Minnesota Timberwolves are prohibited from trading for Wall this season while they have players -- Kyrie Irving, Karl-Anthony Towns and Andrew Wiggins -- on similar designated rookie extensions.)





What approach should the front office take?
There is a for-sale sign attached to the Wizards' roster, but Washington is only 1.5 games out of the Eastern Conference playoffs despite an 8-13 record. If general manager Ernie Grunfeld is thinking short term, a weak conference will allow his team to stay in the postseason hunt despite underachieving early. That line of thinking would be buoyed by the belief that making the playoffs would dispel the cloud hanging over this franchise.

Having been in a similar situation in Brooklyn with Deron Williams, that does not work.

There was a trade proposal in December 2013 that would have given the Nets much-needed future cap relief without improving the basketball product. At the time, Brooklyn was 8-15, had the highest payroll in the NBA and looked listless in losses -- similar to what is going on in Washington.

Instead, the offer was turned down and Brooklyn averaged 41 wins in 2013-14 and 2014-15, reaching the playoffs but not advancing further than the second round. Williams was bought out of his contract in July 2015.

The lesson learned? Thinking big picture outweighs being mediocre. If a future-friendly offer for Wall emerges, the Wizards should take i


Keep in mind that Kev on twitter said the Wizards had a pretty good offer on the table for Wall that couldn't be completed until 12/15.

He couldn't tell us who it is but I would think only a few possible teams could pull it off based on someone they signed this past offseason (hence to player not being available to trade until 12/15)
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVI 

Post#1949 » by LyricalRico » Sat Dec 1, 2018 12:29 am

dckingsfan wrote:
LyricalRico wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:Porter/Mahimni for Randolph/Shumpert/Koufos and Sac's 2022 first round pick?


I don't see the Kings giving up a pick AND taking Mahinmi, seems to me it would be one or the other. But if they'd go for it, sure I'd make that deal.

Still do it if they substituted multiple 2nd round picks for the first? They have a bunch of 2nd round picks...


Hmmm...my issue is that moving Porter by itself doesn't really move the needle for this team IMO. I would need to look more at what options the cap space would present.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVI 

Post#1950 » by Dark Faze » Sat Dec 1, 2018 12:51 am

Willey "Trill" is the exact kind of direction we need to avoid at this point.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVI 

Post#1951 » by trast66 » Sat Dec 1, 2018 2:19 am

We have to fire EG and Brooks, and give players a month to see if they turn it around. I know Ted sees John as face of franchise on court, but he’s obviously the one you trade. Hope for someone like SVG/Pistons last year when they traded for Griffin. It only takes one team to want Wall to make it work.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVI 

Post#1952 » by payitforward » Sat Dec 1, 2018 3:15 am

dckingsfan wrote:Looks like the Kings want to make a play for Porter (he would actually fit their style of play very well).

What would a trade need to look like? They don't have their first round pick next year.

Porter/Mahimni for Randolph/Shumpert/Koufos and Sac's 2022 first round pick?

https://theathletic.com/686091/2018/11/30/could-otto-porter-jr-be-the-kings-answer-at-small-forward-team-said-to-be-monitoring-the-wizards-forward/

That amounts to Porter for their R1 pick 3.5 years from now plus the chance to shed 1 year of Mahinmi. That would be quite a steal for them.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVI 

Post#1953 » by payitforward » Sat Dec 1, 2018 3:22 am

LyricalRico wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:Porter/Mahimni for Randolph/Shumpert/Koufos and Sac's 2022 first round pick?


I don't see the Kings giving up a pick AND taking Mahinmi, seems to me it would be one or the other. But if they'd go for it, sure I'd make that deal.

Et tu LR?

The 3 players are expiring & of no interest to us. Not part of a rebuild. Not part of a current team we'd want to field.

Both last year & the year before, Otto Porter was one of the top forwards in the league. & definitely one of the best young players in the game. This year he's a throwaway?
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVI 

Post#1954 » by payitforward » Sat Dec 1, 2018 3:26 am

80sballboy wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=21

Horrible...
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVI 

Post#1955 » by payitforward » Sat Dec 1, 2018 3:27 am

...but right up Ernie's alley. He'll do it. We are cooked. Finito.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVI 

Post#1956 » by Induveca » Sat Dec 1, 2018 3:57 am

Would have liked a pick but good riddance Porter. 6 years of maddening inconsistency.

More importantly goodbye max contract. It wasn’t going to happen here for him.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVI 

Post#1957 » by nate33 » Sat Dec 1, 2018 4:58 am

payitforward wrote:
80sballboy wrote:
Read on Twitter
?s=21

Horrible...

If Sacramento absorbs a bunch of salary into their cap room as part of the transaction, it's a deal that Ted is going to find hard to refuse. If it's basically WCS + Shumpert for Porter, that would shave $11M off our luxtax calculation, getting us totally out of the luxtax and saving $15M in luxtax fees plus the salary savings of the deal itself.

But if it happens, it's an indictment of how horrible EG is as a GM. After years of tanking, he will have squandered a #3 overall pick (plus the #6 wasted on Vesely, and the #5 wasted in the Miller trade). All that time tanking, and the only thing we have to show for it is Wall, who is now one of the worst contracts in the league, and Beal, who apparently wants out.

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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVI 

Post#1958 » by DCZards » Sat Dec 1, 2018 5:39 am

Induveca wrote:Would have liked a pick but good riddance Porter. 6 years of maddening inconsistency.

More importantly goodbye max contract. It wasn’t going to happen here for him.


Yeah...Porter has been inconsistent but not all of it is on him. A lot of it is on the Zards lousy offensive scheme and teammates who refuse to move the ball.

OP will go to another team and be a much more productive player. He may never been max-worthy but he'll be a whole lot better than he's been here in DC. I hope we don't give up on Otto simply to dump salary.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVI 

Post#1959 » by queridiculo » Sat Dec 1, 2018 9:35 am

Dark Faze wrote:Willey "Trill" is the exact kind of direction we need to avoid at this point.


That's why it's guaranteed to happen.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXVI 

Post#1960 » by DCZards » Sat Dec 1, 2018 2:57 pm

DCZards wrote:
Induveca wrote:Would have liked a pick but good riddance Porter. 6 years of maddening inconsistency.

More importantly goodbye max contract. It wasn’t going to happen here for him.


Yeah...Porter has been inconsistent but not all of it is on him. A lot of it is on the Zards lousy offensive scheme and teammates who refuse to move the ball.

OP will go to another team and be a much more productive player. He may never be max-worthy but he'll be a whole lot better than he's been here in DC. I hope we don't give up on Otto simply to dump salary.

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