Political Roundtable Part XIV

[Ruzious]

Also, the pos' are seeing the effects of the internet. A lot of them are caught on video. Presumably some of them actually have jobs, and getting caught on video may mean they no longer have jobs. That's probably enough for some of them to avoid violence.

[cammac]

I guess one of the things is that a vast majority of Republicans still support Trump while a vast majority of Independents and Democrats find him totally unacceptable. As much as we would like to deny it a large portion of Republicans are racist.

[payitforward]

...do not - do *not*, under any circumstances, punch a Nazi. Get a friend to take a picture of you getting punched by a Nazi - that is a THOUSAND times more effective...

...nonviolent protest is EXTREMELY DIFFICULT. MLK Jr. and his followers literally had to sit there and take it while white supremacists beat the snot out of them. ...

...We have to sit there and take it while fascists beat the snot out of us. I'm sorry it has to be this way but it's the only thing that will work short of an extremely bloody civil war. It's worth it.

This is really interesting, Zonk. & yes it was effective -- as was the Gandhi-an model in India.

But in both cases it was the non-violent protest of people subject to oppression, yet whose point of view was a minority one in the eyes of the society's decision-makers. That's a very different situation to the current one, & I wonder if the point holds across that difference.

Non-violence certainly does! There is no point whatever to fistfights or any violent interaction w/ neo-Nazis etc. In fact, their attempt to bait people into such confrontations is actually similar, tactically, to non-violence in civil rights protests: it removes any "moral" advantage of the opponent (for different reasons in these very different situations, obviously, but still...).

But, I don't see why anti-Fascist protests should create situations where people get the snot beat out of them. What am I missing? Many such situations in the civil rights movement were created by "sit-ins" where you are inherently in a passive position. Otherwise, as in Selma, it was law-enforcement employing the violent means.

I don't immediately come up with parallels in the current situation. The racist alt.right is a minority movement; it's a small one too, in terms of active participation (either ideologically or in action).

I'd also argue that it doesn't show any signs of, or potential for, rapid growth. Keep in mind that the National Socialists (Nazis) were a political party using (in part!) standard strategies/tactics. Now, the means of getting publicity have changed enormously, & that the alt.right can do. & they can organize an event of the Charlottesvile kind. & they are dangerous -- I'm not being a pollyanna. But, I'm not seeing any reasons or easy opportunities to e.g. sit in on them.

So, while I agree with your first sentence (don't punch a Nazi), I'd also say don't cultivate situations where people get beat up. Instead, isolate them in their actions. & let law enforcement contain their demonstrations, etc. As you point out, they lack a movement discipline, & they are likely to do self-destructive things -- fight with cops, etc. Stuff like that on TV & the net will do them in as an active movement.

[payitforward]

I guess one of the things is that a vast majority of Republicans still support Trump while a vast majority of Independents and Democrats find him totally unacceptable. As much as we would like to deny it a large portion of Republicans are racist.

That's way too schematic, cammac. A majority of Republicans haven't abandoned Trump, because their party affiliations are deep & long-term. Their party affiliations have big, important meaning in their lives.

As to racism, treating "racism" as if it were an opinion held by individuals, "prejudice" against black people, doesn't help understand it & certainly doesn't help do away with it. Racism is an ideology -- a system of ideas about the world that was invented to promote & justify an enormous set of policies & actions. Policies & actions which were central to creating this society.

Historically, the US is a racist society -- which doesn't simply mean that most Americans are "prejudiced." It means that b/c of our history we are forced, as a society, to struggle with racist ideology & its results in a way that, say, Canada doesn't have to.

It's possible for most people to understand that the ideas behind racism are false (there are no human "races," the white man has no "burden," there's no need to bring Xtianity to the "heathens," etc. etc. etc.) without that fact making "racism" go away. It's embedded in institutions, it has real-world results on populations & their behaviors, it affects personal "opinion" in pre-rational ways, etc.

Ideologies are extremely persistent: think about the persistence of anti-Semitism in a world where its tenets have absolutely no meaning.

All this to say that if "a large portion of Republicans are racist," it's because of the situation described above. & it's not "Republicans." Not as individuals.

[dckingsfan]

Well here's a good idea:

Read on Twitter

There is another one out there with clowns.
http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/the-best-way-to-fight-neo-nazis-is-to-laugh/

[Ruzious]

This article http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/charlottesville-mo-man-idd-in-viral-photo/ar-AAqdEfN?li=BBnb7Kz is an example of what I was referring to in "outing" the pos'. Then again, that particular pos actually legally changed his last name from Landrum to Von Nukem, so he... just might have already had problems getting a job... and housing. Well, he probably lives in his parents' dungeon. Either way, the future ain't bright for Tiki Teddy.

[Zonkerbl]

It wasn't just the police. White people would waltz right up to non-violent protestors and beat the snot out of them.

The Nazis are trying a similar tactic that the civil rights protesters did. They have about the same level of support, ~40%, that Hitler had when he started his two year campaign to seize the chancellorship. We're at about the same point Germany was in 1932.

http://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/adolf-hitler-becomes-president-of-germany

40% is enough to lie and murder your way into power, but not enough to stage an all out coup. They still need to whip up their base, as the Nazis did with the Reichstag fire. So they're using tactics similar to non-violent protest to try to bait people into punching them, so they can pretend to be persecuted victims.

Yes, I'm basically conceding that through non-violence we will force the Nazis to stage a Reichstag fire. But the US in 2017 is economically healthy with no hyperinflation and a strong system of checks and balances. We have tools available to us now that non-Nazi Germans didn't have back in 1932. We can still beat them, but not if we play into their hands by throwing punches. We certainly don't need to throw punches unprovoked, and the more punches we throw in self defense, the more likely it is a clever video editor can make it look like an unprovoked attack. Again, only until November 2018.

After November 2018, regardless of the outcome of the elections, I expect Trump's base, [enraged at the loss of the elections]/[emboldened by their success in the elections], will stop trying to bait people into punching them and switch into fullbore intimidation mode.

That's a whole different situation and I just would really like the tools of Federal and State military/police power not to be in the Nazis' hands at that point.

[dckingsfan]

I'd also argue that it doesn't show any signs of, or potential for, rapid growth. Keep in mind that the National Socialists (Nazis) were a political party using (in part!) standard strategies/tactics. Now, the means of getting publicity have changed enormously, & that the alt.right can do. & they can organize an event of the Charlottesvile kind. & they are dangerous -- I'm not being a pollyanna.

I think this is the real point (and I don't think you are being Pollyanna on this) - this is a minority movement. And a continually shrinking one...

[Zonkerbl]

I'd also argue that it doesn't show any signs of, or potential for, rapid growth. Keep in mind that the National Socialists (Nazis) were a political party using (in part!) standard strategies/tactics. Now, the means of getting publicity have changed enormously, & that the alt.right can do. & they can organize an event of the Charlottesvile kind. & they are dangerous -- I'm not being a pollyanna.

I think this is the real point (and I don't think you are being Pollyanna on this) - this is a minority movement. And a continually shrinking one...

Is it shrinking?

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president_trump_job_approval-6179.html

This graph tells me that roughly 40% of the electorate thinks Trump can do no wrong. Look at the incredible amount of chaos and lunacy that's happened over the last few months, and yet Trump's approval rating has essentially not budged from 40% since May. That's TERRIFYING to me. Because that's about how much support Hitler had in 1932.

Hitler never had more than about 40% public support, until he became a dictator and he started winning 90% of the vote miraculously. You don't need a majority of the vote to become a dictator. You just need enough support to lie and murder your way to power.

[Zonkerbl]

Well here's a good idea:

Read on Twitter

There is another one out there with clowns.
http://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/politics/the-best-way-to-fight-neo-nazis-is-to-laugh/

Heh. That's a good one.

I have people in my facebook feed proposing glitter-bombing Nazis, but to be honest, glitter is some nasty **** so I don't recommend it. All you need is some Nazi snowflake to get a scratched retina and it's all over Breitbart.

[Zonkerbl]

I keep referring to Hitler because he's the fascist I'm most familiar with, but Trump is a lot more similar to Mussolini, who rose to power almost a decade earlier than Hitler:

https://www.biography.com/people/benito-mussolini-9419443

It's really the NEXT fascist after Trump that worries me the most. Who's close relationship with Trump most resembles Mussolini's and Hitler's buddy/buddy relationship?

[I_Like_Dirt]

There are sites that allow you to anonymously mail a bag of dicks to people. That could be fun, plus it has the advantage of stimulating the economy and maybe even creating dick-making jobs those Nazis could perform since they're so worried about having jobs for white people.

[payitforward]

I keep referring to Hitler because he's the fascist I'm most familiar with, but Trump is a lot more similar to Mussolini, who rose to power almost a decade earlier than Hitler:

https://www.biography.com/people/benito-mussolini-9419443

It's really the NEXT fascist after Trump that worries me the most. Who's close relationship with Trump most resembles Mussolini's and Hitler's buddy/buddy relationship?

Well... I'm glad you are worried about this. That is, I think some people ought to worry about it, ought to be thinking about strategy on the basis of a scenario of this kind.

At the same time, there are so many many differences between the situations in Germany & Italy back then & the current situation that I'm not going to be the one doing that worrying.

Doesn't mean I don't worry about Donald Trump. But I'd also say that our institutions have shown themselves powerfully resistant to him as an individual.

As to neo-Nazis coming to power in this country, right now I can't see the pathway. Can they put a single person in the House of Representatives, for example? I mean that as a serious question.

I don't see Putin/Trump as much akin to Hitler/Mussolini either. For that matter, hateful though he is, Putin doesn't strike me as much like Hitler.

Yet... as above, good that smart people worry scenarios like this!

[montestewart]

some Nazi snowflake

dick-making jobs those Nazis could perform

Quoted for hilarity

[dckingsfan]

I'd also argue that it doesn't show any signs of, or potential for, rapid growth. Keep in mind that the National Socialists (Nazis) were a political party using (in part!) standard strategies/tactics. Now, the means of getting publicity have changed enormously, & that the alt.right can do. & they can organize an event of the Charlottesvile kind. & they are dangerous -- I'm not being a pollyanna.

I think this is the real point (and I don't think you are being Pollyanna on this) - this is a minority movement. And a continually shrinking one...

Is it shrinking?

https://www.realclearpolitics.com/epolls/other/president_trump_job_approval-6179.html

This graph tells me that roughly 40% of the electorate thinks Trump can do no wrong. Look at the incredible amount of chaos and lunacy that's happened over the last few months, and yet Trump's approval rating has essentially not budged from 40% since May. That's TERRIFYING to me. Because that's about how much support Hitler had in 1932.

Hitler never had more than about 40% public support, until he became a dictator and he started winning 90% of the vote miraculously. You don't need a majority of the vote to become a dictator. You just need enough support to lie and murder your way to power.

Eh. Not sure you can equate Trump approval ratings to neo Nazi growth/"shrinkage". No? This figure isn't exactly proof but it is what I am seeing:

[Zonkerbl]

I keep referring to Hitler because he's the fascist I'm most familiar with, but Trump is a lot more similar to Mussolini, who rose to power almost a decade earlier than Hitler:

https://www.biography.com/people/benito-mussolini-9419443

It's really the NEXT fascist after Trump that worries me the most. Who's close relationship with Trump most resembles Mussolini's and Hitler's buddy/buddy relationship?

Well... I'm glad you are worried about this. That is, I think some people ought to worry about it, ought to be thinking about strategy on the basis of a scenario of this kind.

At the same time, there are so many many differences between the situations in Germany & Italy back then & the current situation that I'm not going to be the one doing that worrying.

Doesn't mean I don't worry about Donald Trump. But I'd also say that our institutions have shown themselves powerfully resistant to him as an individual.

As to neo-Nazis coming to power in this country, right now I can't see the pathway. Can they put a single person in the House of Representatives, for example? I mean that as a serious question.

I don't see Putin/Trump as much akin to Hitler/Mussolini either. For that matter, hateful though he is, Putin doesn't strike me as much like Hitler.

Yet... as above, good that smart people worry scenarios like this!

Why is it that there is virtually no chance of the Nazis reaching power? Because we can stand up and resist and have the support of the founding father's to do so. The "checks and balances" of Democracy aren't magic - you still have to stand up and work.

And again - Trump has had a 40% approval rating since May. Don't underestimate the strength of the fascist movement. Will the GOP stand up and do the right thing? Or will they support anybody - even a Nazi sympathizer - over the Democrats? Are you willing to bet your life on the answer to that question?

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

[Zonkerbl]

Read on Twitter

That's effing brilliant

[dobrojim]

was watching All In last night and in the last segment they had 2 guys on, one
African American GOP guy and another guy who was a dem strategist.

The GOP guy was trying to claim that 'a number' of pubs had rebuked DJT by name.
The problem I saw with that was that yes, there have been some number, not sure
how many, but some number, who have called him out by name.
The bottom line was that it's a darn small number out of 52 US Senators
and 247 Reps. I heard numerous generic condemnations of extremist hate groups
in their public utterances but precious few have called out La Orange by name.

McConnell (and his wife) and Ryan are cowards. If there is any justice in the world,
history will judge them very harshly. I have a couple of postcards that I will be
mailing them.

The dem guy proceed to refer to the GOP as the RepubliKlan party. Not surprisingly,
the GOPer took umbrage at this. Too much denialism going on for too long for this
to be anything other than very painful.

I loved what Steve Schimdt had to say on TRMS on Tues night.
As much as I despise where the GOP has gone slowly but steadily
over the 40 years of my adult/voting life, we really need 2 parties.
DJT has clearly justified the fears of many conservatives typically
out of political office, who opposed him from the get go.

PS love the Germany city response. Love the Durham response.

Watch on YouTube

[gtn130]

I keep referring to Hitler because he's the fascist I'm most familiar with, but Trump is a lot more similar to Mussolini, who rose to power almost a decade earlier than Hitler:

https://www.biography.com/people/benito-mussolini-9419443

It's really the NEXT fascist after Trump that worries me the most. Who's close relationship with Trump most resembles Mussolini's and Hitler's buddy/buddy relationship?

Well... I'm glad you are worried about this. That is, I think some people ought to worry about it, ought to be thinking about strategy on the basis of a scenario of this kind.

At the same time, there are so many many differences between the situations in Germany & Italy back then & the current situation that I'm not going to be the one doing that worrying.

Doesn't mean I don't worry about Donald Trump. But I'd also say that our institutions have shown themselves powerfully resistant to him as an individual.

As to neo-Nazis coming to power in this country, right now I can't see the pathway. Can they put a single person in the House of Representatives, for example? I mean that as a serious question.

I don't see Putin/Trump as much akin to Hitler/Mussolini either. For that matter, hateful though he is, Putin doesn't strike me as much like Hitler.

Yet... as above, good that smart people worry scenarios like this!

Why is it that there is virtually no chance of the Nazis reaching power? Because we can stand up and resist and have the support of the founding father's to do so. The "checks and balances" of Democracy aren't magic - you still have to stand up and work.

And again - Trump has had a 40% approval rating since May. Don't underestimate the strength of the fascist movement. Will the GOP stand up and do the right thing? Or will they support anybody - even a Nazi sympathizer - over the Democrats? Are you willing to bet your life on the answer to that question?

I truly do not understand how anyone can have this takeaway after Trump has turned the rule of law into an absolute farce, after he has desecrated all institutional norms and values.

What if Trump had any semblance of competence and wasn't an orange reality show buffoon? He would literally be Hitler. Trump managed to do all this **** while being a brazen idiot!

What if things just broke his way a little more - like if there was a serious existential threat of some kind like a 9/11 scale attack?

What if Trump had the political capital to do something like a massive infrastructure plan at the beginning of his presidency? He would further win over the voters who are most susceptible to fake news propaganda.

Literally all it would take: Trump is moderately successful/popular + enough GOP governors take office + existential threat whether real or not and we can rewrite the constitution.

Here is a long but great read on how realistic the collapse of American democracy is: https://www.vox.com/2015/3/2/8120063/american-democracy-doomed