Mack and Cook Cut

[Dat2U]

I like Mack over Pargo, but I'm not going to get worked up about it. Neither guy should play on a decent team.

I can live with cutting Cook. I thought he provided a unique skill as the only legit "stretch 4" on the roster, but then again, Singleton has played fairly well at the 4 spot as well, so I guess Cook isn't all that unique.

Although this is part of a continuing trend for this front office of poorly planning and executing small details, I think this is less important than the continuing trend for this front office of poorly planning and executing large details. So I'm not getting worked up either.

Yep, this is where I'm at as well. Frankly, with regards to the Wizards, I'm having trouble getting excited about much of anything nowadays. I'm starting to view them like the Redskins pre RGIII when it was the Snyder & Cerrato show. Just wake me up when it's over. The Leonsis & Grunfeld duo is similarly ineffectual but far less exciting.

[Induveca]

I'm fine with it honestly, I'd rather have Price until Wall returns.

Mack/Price/Pargo were all bound to be axed eventually. Mack just looked overmatched against 85% of the guys he was up against. Price was much more impressive.

Pargo/Mack were a toss up. May have just been another chance to plant a veteran in the locker room and not waste time on developing a player who would amount to nothing.

Bizarre logic for a team who needs to develop players, but I can see the logic it wasn't worth time "Developing" a player like Mack who isn't long for the league regardless.

[TomShoe]

I'm shocked with the Pargo over Mack decision.

This is clearly another Grunfeld "I'd rather be mediocre now than good later" decision. He's just trying to make it look like they're making progress by giving them a long-shot chance at a playoff spot.

I hope Mack goes to the D-League so he can come back. He's 23 so he's got time to improve his game, unlike Pargo, who's in his 30s.

[Dat2U]

I never understood the desire to develop mediocre talent. I remember to the years we wasted on Jared Jeffries and Juan Dixon. Or more recently with Dom McGuire and Nick Young. Shelvin Mack had no real NBA talent and no upside. You don't spend extensive time on developing something that's easily attainable elsewhere (NDBL or overseas).

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Nick Young can be like Steve Novak. When I used the word develop I didn't mean waste time projecting him as an alpha male starter. What I meant is play him as a situational sub who you have an extreme amount of faith in

Before Mack was drafted, I liked two guys at PG better. Norris Cole and Charles Jenkins. Cole was really fortunate to be drafted by the Heat, but they really like him as a role player. Jenkins made the Warriors and they like him. He got to play some due to Curry's injury.

Shelvin Mack defended SGs and SFs in college. He's a game manager. Easily replaceable, but the guy showed what he was made of in consecutive Final Fours at Butler. He hit big threes in preseason. I think he's a winner and he should have remained a Wizard because he competes and Pargo did NOT outplay him. By develop, he should have stayed over Pargo IMO.

[Dat2U]

CCJ, you don't want to draft Steve Novak, you want Steve Novak after he's bounced around the league and/or overseas for a few years when his game matures.

Steve Novak was a fine player last season in a limited and specified role.

Steve Novak was a waste of draft pick for the team that drafted him.

Norris Cole and Charles Jenkins are dime-a-dozen gunners. Nothing to really get excited about IMO. They're almost easy to find as the Shelvin Mack's of the world.

[payitforward]

"Mack is small and slow" and better than Pargo across the board, and young, and now a wasted draft pick by an awful team that needs to draft well.

Second round draft picks are like lottery tickets. They are great if you hit it, but generally worthless otherwise. The Wizards hardly wasted a draft pick on Shelvin Mack. They took a shot and it didn't pay off. It is not the end of the world. Below average players like Shelvin Mack are easy to replace.

None of the above. This is the typical "the draft's all a crap shoot" response after your team has pissed in its own bowl of soup.

Not to mention that you quote but don't address the point that Pargo isn't *nearly* as good as Mack -- however little you like Shelvin. But, don't bother. "It's all a crap shoot; you never know whether a player is good or bad. He could be great for us."

Right?

[MikeTheKid]

Time to tank!!! We need two more back to back tanks because major 3 pick lottos are on the way in back to back seasons!!!

Won't matter the Lakers will find a way to snag 1 or 2 of those players in the next 2 years to be the successor of Kobe!

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

CCJ, you don't want to draft Steve Novak, you want Steve Novak after he's bounced around the league and/or overseas for a few years when his game matures.

Steve Novak was a fine player last season in a limited and specified role.

Steve Novak was a waste of draft pick for the team that drafted him.

Norris Cole and Charles Jenkins are dime-a-dozen gunners. Nothing to really get excited about IMO. They're almost easy to find as the Shelvin Mack's of the world.

We had a tsunami warning last night. Nothing much happened. So, skip this post if you don't want to read a rant. I'll even post a warning ...

WARNING -- Strong opinion, soap box rant to follow. Just my opinion not all directed at Dat.

Arguably, every player outside of the stars of the league is easily replaced. You are good at arranging tiers for evaluating players. Lebron's alone at the top with Kobe losing his grip on that tier. The Durants, Howards, Pauls, Garnetts, Duncans, etc. are HOF players. A lot of guys can make one, two, or three All Star games like Jamison. Definitely worth drafting, they can help a team win games with talent around them.


Everybody else is a dime a dozen. Sixty guys get drafted but outside of 10-15 each season, the other 45 are fortunate because in their draft year alone, there were subjective 2 guys just as good who didn't get drafted. I would say 80-90 other guys who if drafted could fill that role. That's your Novak, DeAndre Liggins, Dominic McGuire type of fringe player.

Dat, my opinion is Nick is a fine player if used properly. Novak is an excellent shooter and so rare that he's been underrated for years. I've talked about him since he was at Marquette. When Lin was getting all the hype, guys like Jeffries and Novak did precisely what the no-names on the Wizards did those last 6 games. They won a bunch of games because each guy fit. Each role player was PERFECT for that role. Yes, they played weak competition but they won 7 straight games. Guys like Mack CAN help a team win games even if he is a routine, run-of-the-mill player. In his role he is very predictable and in fact, very reliable.

Great teams like the Celtics in the 60s had great role players. So did Detroit in 2004. They didn't have 3 superstars. They had a few stars and a bunch of excellent role players who were perfectly cast and assembled. The Pistons' player development was great until the Darko draft, and around when they decided to trade a good role player, Mehmet Okur. They did well until a superstar with other great role players knocked them out of the playoffs. (The Cavs and the Magics made it to the Finals with a bunch of players like Shelvin Mack. In 2001, Eric Snow was like Mack and he started in the Finals. If they are your role player and they play their role well, they are valuable.)

I think a stabile NBA organization should recognize talent to begin with and they should commit to players, even though they can easily be replaced, as long as they're helping the team move forward in their role.

[hands11]

Little things mean a lot to me.

Flip Saunders sent some signals very early on that I reacted to very strongly. Most didn't agree then with me. Took them about a year-and-a-half.

What makes Mack getting cut bother me is it says BS to Wittman running things as a meritocracy. Mack outplayed Pargo in preseason and Mack deserved to make the team, but clearly the coaching staff had no faith in Mack and/or they leaned toward liking Pargo. Why? People who say they both suck and so do Barron and Cook are entitled to their opinion. To me it is a matter of character, integrity, consistency, and transparency. It shows where Wittman, Ted, and EG are coming from.

These guys don't get it and there is a reason this team is perennially lottery-bound. The Wizards organization treats players poorly but in the end they get guys labeled as knuckleheads when in fact, they were never professionally developed or never were simply retained as specialists who had certain strengths but not a total game.

Nick Young is now with a coach and an organization that will maximize what he can do. He is a terrific three point shooter. He has the length to be a good man defender. He does not pass the ball often, does not rebound, and does not have a good court sense of others; but at times he can dominate a game himself. Finally, he has a veteran like Jason Richardson ahead of him. He has a post scorer in Bynum. He has a perimeter big who can pass like Hawes. He has rugged rebounders like Evan Turner and Lavoy Allen on his team. He's got so much around him that there's virtually no way Nick does anything but look good to great as a role player. But had he been developed well, he would be the SG and not Jordan Crawford. As it ended up, last season as a Wizard went terribly for Nick Young. Ended up jacking shots for a contract after he and Javale and Andray were made the pariahs of a losing organization.

I won't go through much of a rant on Javale or Andray Blatche but to say they are now where they can be the role players they could have been in DC, if the GM and owner and coaching had been better.

Mack is a quality guy. His stats from last year were not fully appreciated. payitforward's post in the other thread about the others drafted after him is on point. Regardless of that, as the Wizards' draft pick they once again valued a non-descript veteran from another team over a guy who could have and should have been developed better and retained. On top of that, they once again invested in veterans who if they play well are on one-year contracts and will just go elsewhere like Foye and Mike Miller.

EG is an incompetent and Ted as far as I am concerned is a bad owner.

You left out GO DENVER.

[hands11]

"Mack is small and slow" and better than Pargo across the board, and young, and now a wasted draft pick by an awful team that needs to draft well.

Second round draft picks are like lottery tickets. They are great if you hit it, but generally worthless otherwise. The Wizards hardly wasted a draft pick on Shelvin Mack. They took a shot and it didn't pay off. It is not the end of the world. Below average players like Shelvin Mack are easy to replace.

Sure it paid off.

They got a good year of solid character on a Dray, McGee, Nick Young goofball team while he was the primary bread and butter type back up to Wall who was the exact opposite. And he helped them secure the #3 pick by which they got Beal. He was a good band-aid to help them heal.

I call that a huge return on investment.

[nuposse04]

I would have preferred to keep Mack...but it isn't that important. I don't think he was going to get more than 15-20 mins a game anyways. If Pargo doesn't live up...I think Mack might still be on the market...and if it isn't we may be forced to actually look to someone with upside...problem is...EG will making that decision.

I'm more puzzled at the barron retention...While he played pretty damn well this pre season I don't see him getting much playing time as he is redundant with many of our other bigs...signal to a possible upcoming trade?

[hands11]

I'm fine with it honestly, I'd rather have Price until Wall returns.

Mack/Price/Pargo were all bound to be axed eventually. Mack just looked overmatched against 85% of the guys he was up against. Price was much more impressive.

Pargo/Mack were a toss up. May have just been another chance to plant a veteran in the locker room and not waste time on developing a player who would amount to nothing.

Bizarre logic for a team who needs to develop players, but I can see the logic it wasn't worth time "Developing" a player like Mack who isn't long for the league regardless.

That's pretty much it Indu.

Only its not bizarre logic. Its actually pretty sound.

Price is now Walls back up until they find something better.
They will look to resign Webster and see how he and Singleton handle the SF post. Trevor A is gone ASAP.
PF is set with Nene and Booker
Oak and Kevin can handle center.

And you have Ves longer term development player to fill in either PF or Center but for now he backs up both.

The biggest current hole is more at SG beside Beal.
I say they also start looking next draft at another PF or Center to eventually replace Nene or Okafor. Bigs are seed best planted early so get one next year for the year after.

Or they do a trade if the right one comes along.

What I'm hoping is that they really found something in Webster. That would help a ton. That and Kevin really developing into a starting quality consistent player. If Webster and Kevin can play like starters, it would be awesome to have Nene and Okafor backing them up.

Wall/Price
Beal
Webster/Singleton
Booker/Nene/Ves
Kevin/Okafor/Ves

They need another SG and maybe another young stud PG prospect if Price doesn't work out.

[closg00]

Barron might very-well be the next person cut as-soon as Kevin gets back.

[LyricalRico]

Barron might very-well be the next person cut as-soon as Kevin gets back.

Agreed. They needed some size in reserve, so that's what they kept. Same as any other team would do. And, also like any other team, I'm sure they will continue to adjust the end of the bench as necessary during the season.

[hands11]

Barron might very-well be the next person cut as-soon as Kevin gets back.

They wont need to do that until they get two players back. Adding one of Nene or Kevin only gets them to 13

This is obviously the insurance approach I spoke about them taking. They keep him to cover for the Nene and Kevin situation.

When they both come back healthy, we could see them grab Cook back because at that point, what he adds fits better. Even if that is just spot minutes to spread the floor for a final shot.

[montestewart]

Pargo/Mack were a toss up. May have just been another chance to plant a veteran in the locker room and not waste time on developing a player who would amount to nothing.

Bizarre logic for a team who needs to develop players, but I can see the logic it wasn't worth time "Developing" a player like Mack who isn't long for the league regardless.

That's pretty much it Indu.

Only its not bizarre logic. Its actually pretty sound.

Price is now Walls back up until they find something better.

Maybe it's not bizarre logic at all, but in the above and in the remainder of your response, you do not address Induveca's point, which was Pargo over Mack. A plurality here, if a not a majority, think that Pargo's career track record, recent trends, and preseason do not show him to be better than Mack is at this point.

Compared to Mack, Pargo was a turnover machine, in preseason and in his career, and at times he looked like a Crawford-like shot jacker. Really, if you compare the entirely reserve career of Pargo against the rookie year of Mack, Pargo only comes out ahead in 3P% and FT%. But Mack's per36 gets him more FTAs and more made FTs, and since he shoots 2s at a higher %, his TS% is almost the same as Pargo's. In every other way, Mack's pathetic, abysmal rookie year numbers looks superior to Pargo's career numbers.

OK, so how is it sound logic again? Mack and Pargo both suck, but at least we don't have to waste resources trying to make Mack not suck? Pargo is a veteran of suck, so the team will never be tempted to expect otherwise? Yes, it's the je-ne-sais-quoi of the no account veteran without portfolio. I understand now. Thanks Hands. Go Wizards!

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Little things mean a lot to me.

Flip Saunders sent some signals very early on that I reacted to very strongly. Most didn't agree then with me. Took them about a year-and-a-half.

What makes Mack getting cut bother me is it says BS to Wittman running things as a meritocracy. Mack outplayed Pargo in preseason and Mack deserved to make the team, but clearly the coaching staff had no faith in Mack and/or they leaned toward liking Pargo. Why? People who say they both suck and so do Barron and Cook are entitled to their opinion. To me it is a matter of character, integrity, consistency, and transparency. It shows where Wittman, Ted, and EG are coming from.

These guys don't get it and there is a reason this team is perennially lottery-bound. The Wizards organization treats players poorly but in the end they get guys labeled as knuckleheads when in fact, they were never professionally developed or never were simply retained as specialists who had certain strengths but not a total game.

Nick Young is now with a coach and an organization that will maximize what he can do. He is a terrific three point shooter. He has the length to be a good man defender. He does not pass the ball often, does not rebound, and does not have a good court sense of others; but at times he can dominate a game himself. Finally, he has a veteran like Jason Richardson ahead of him. He has a post scorer in Bynum. He has a perimeter big who can pass like Hawes. He has rugged rebounders like Evan Turner and Lavoy Allen on his team. He's got so much around him that there's virtually no way Nick does anything but look good to great as a role player. But had he been developed well, he would be the SG and not Jordan Crawford. As it ended up, last season as a Wizard went terribly for Nick Young. Ended up jacking shots for a contract after he and Javale and Andray were made the pariahs of a losing organization.

I won't go through much of a rant on Javale or Andray Blatche but to say they are now where they can be the role players they could have been in DC, if the GM and owner and coaching had been better.

Mack is a quality guy. His stats from last year were not fully appreciated. payitforward's post in the other thread about the others drafted after him is on point. Regardless of that, as the Wizards' draft pick they once again valued a non-descript veteran from another team over a guy who could have and should have been developed better and retained. On top of that, they once again invested in veterans who if they play well are on one-year contracts and will just go elsewhere like Foye and Mike Miller.

EG is an incompetent and Ted as far as I am concerned is a bad owner.

You left out GO DENVER.

I also left out GO BROOKLYN and GO PHILADELPHIA.

Two years ago, I was happy for Butler, Haywood, and Stevenson even if they just landed in the right spot and didn't make it happen when Dallas won it all.

Last season, I was happy to see Mike Miller hit all those threes in the Finals (and for Nick Young and Foye who at least advanced a round in the playoffs as no-longer-Wizards).

hands, as soon as Javale went to Denver folks said he needed to get off the Wizards. No, the guy is not bright at all and he is still the same player. Yet, he makes less money and has played more playoff games than EG's "Renaissance Man", Emeka Okafor. He is six years younger, too.

This season, Doug Collins gets to rehabilitate the image of Nick Young. Shot that three very well in the playoffs for the Clippers last season, BTW. He played well enough and might start for Philly.

hands, I root for just about everybody to do well. The only time I root against folks is when I find them to be very objectionable. I'm tired of seeing EG and Ted ruin my basketball hopes for the Wizards while trashing players along the way. They made Gilbert rich but also a scapegoat in the end.

So, yeah, GO DENVER! I'm happy Pam and Javale got what they wanted. Andray Blatche has limitations, character issues, and can be a Jordan Crawford jacker. That said, he's also capable of being a good role player on a good team. While he was in DC and not injured, I hoped they could trade him to a team like Boston. That ship sailed, but you will see him do a whole lot better for himself this season as a role player on a talented team.

I root for people even after they make mistakes because Lord knows, I do, too!

[truwizfan4evr]

Should we sign Shaun Livingston? Should we take a risk with Delonte West i know wizards wanted to get rid of knuckle heads but he's very talented.

[BruceO]

yeah wondered about shawn livingston as well, anyway this backup debate ends when satoransky comes lol. macks writing was on the wall when cassell trashed him post summer league.