Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part IV

[hands11]

Man this draft just becomes more confusing.

To me the interesting thing Ford says about Len, as it pertains to the Wizards, is the injury will probably keep him from moving up pre-draft, leaving him available for the Wizards at 8. If not for the injury he could of helped himself in workout to move up potentially as high as 2.

If that's the case, he could be a bargain at 8, and worth the wait in terms of both his health and development.

Also, looking at his report on Olynyk, he seems to think his future position could be stretch 4. That is causing me to rethink his fit on the Wizards.


For the Wizards, based on team need, skill, upside, fit, this is what I'm thinking right now in terms of ranking...

1. Porter
2. Bennett
3. McCollum
4. Len
5. Olynyk

Right. Just keep up with my posts and think of them as pre Chad announcements

As for in what order the Wizards should go. Thats tough. I liked Otto, VO and CJM early on but then after seeing Lens last game and based on need, Len moved way up in my book.

Here is my take. Specially after watching the some playoffs. You really need players who can create off the dribble, have great handles and can not only shoot, but score with either hand. That is CJM. If they added him to the guard rotation that would be their Harden/J Jack 3rd guard to complete the rotation.

And you need a solid defensive center that can also score. Thats Len or Dieng. We have it cover now and Okafor could produce for a while longer, but if you can get a young talented center prospect, that is tough to pass by.

I really like Otto. I think he will be a very solid pro. He feels like a Tayshaun Prince type glue guy and I value that. Just not sure its what the Wizards need most if they can keep Trevor A and Webster. Its kind of the whole that least needs filled right now but you could make the same agreement about future at SF that I did at center.

And of course, they could use a S4, but again, for now Trevor A can do some of that and they can add that with a later pick like Mike Muscala or Erik Murphy. So that moves Olynyk way back in any list.

So CJM, Len/Dieng, Otto.

In what order ? That really tough. For me, it hard to pass up on a talented scoring SG/PG like CJM. Specially since there is such a drop off after Beal. And Beal has those weak ankles and he doesn't have near CJMs handles. And since I expect CJM to develop his PGs skills over the next 2 years, that is your 3 guard rotation that never lets the other team off the hook. They will always be breaking you down and hitting open shots from all over. That opens everything up and its what you need in crunch time.

No one player is going to fix all the wholes on this team but all those players do something that can really help them. I put Bennett and Olynyk after those three/four.

[hands11]

nate, as far as that 3&D guard...

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Michael-Snaer-5687/

Snaer was on the radar a while ago. He just hasn't been talked about much lately because of other needs and options. Kind of like Erik Green.

We don't need a 3 and D guard. They are going to keep Temple for another year. He already has the D. And he is tall allowing him to cover three positions. I'm sure he will work really hard on his outside shot this summer. He got better shooting as the year went on.

So you have Wall, Beal and Temple. What you are missing is a ball handler/shooter/scorer SG/PG off the bench. Not a 3 and D. Right now that third guard is Price who is didn't get to play that role enough because one of Wall and Beal was usually injured.

So the question is, will they upgrade Price or not.

[tontoz]

Looked to me like Bazz only played hard when he had the ball in his hands. And his lack of rebounding is definitely an issue on a team that only has one big who is a good rebounder (and he is on an expiring deal).

I would agree that he looks like an ordinary athlete.

The remarks both Aldridge and Ford have alluded to with regards to Muhammad have continually harped on the idea that he always plays really hard, hell its an asset. I don't understand how something that all scouts refer to as one of his chief assets, is being looked at as a liability. Effort, play hard, and work hard are definitely not concerns with him. The chief concerns are working the rest of the stat line/being a more complete player, refining his game so he's more than a physical player, getting in better shape, and his size which isn't ideal. His work rate, and his effort are two of his greatest assets alongside his simple ability to score. Plenty to take issue with, no doubt, but not his effort, dedication, or level of intensity while playing.

Guys who play hard all the time usually have production in areas other than scoring. Bazz doesn't. And he is currently 10th on Ford's big board which isn't exactly a strong endorsement given the weakness of this draft and the hype he had before the season.

[tontoz]

There are a lot of "ordinary athletes" who have had outstanding NBA careers, Tim Duncan, Melo, Larry Bird and Paul Pierce immediately come to mind.

Other than Lebron Melo is surely the strongest, quickest 3 in the league. Bird and Duncan not only had great size for their positions they also had exceptional skills. Bazz has neither.

Pierce is reach because he not only scores efficiently but is also a well rounded player.

Bazz averaged 5.3 rebounds, .8 assists, .1 blocks and .7 steals in 31 minutes. That is pretty bad.

[Dat2U]

There are a lot of "ordinary athletes" who have had outstanding NBA careers, Tim Duncan, Melo, Larry Bird and Paul Pierce immediately come to mind.

And Shabazz Muhammad has absolutely nothing in common with any of the players you mentioned.

I seem to remember having a similar debate with you last year about Austin Rivers. Average athleticism + overrated skill + uninspiring college performance = future NBA bust.

[DCZards]

That doesn't jibe at all with the rips he's taking on this board. In addition to issues with his size, and him being overage (and a fraud in that sense), the biggest hits continually are on his character, and the way he plays.

Well if he has legit NBA scoring ability, and every scouting report I've come across agrees on that point AND he works his but off, and plays hard as hell. Then why on earth wouldn't we want that, and how does it really jibe with the idea that he's basically a bad guy, and a 1 note player. A player who plays his butt off, and works hard and has an elite NBA skill is by his very nature one of the best five or six prospects in this draft, and inherently better, at least now as a prospect, than any of the lower rated guys that keep getting placed ahead of him on so many fans boards.

Consig, those fans sleeping on Shabazz will be eating a full plate of crow by this time next year.

[TGW]

Shabazz really offers nothing to the table outside of so-so scoring ability. He doesn't make his teammates better, he doesn't play good defense, and he doesn't have a good attitude IMO. Those reasons alone are enough to make me want to avoid him.

[nate33]

There are a lot of "ordinary athletes" who have had outstanding NBA careers, Tim Duncan, Melo, Larry Bird and Paul Pierce immediately come to mind.

And Shabazz Muhammad has absolutely nothing in common with any of the players you mentioned.

I seem to remember having a similar debate with you last year about Austin Rivers. Average athleticism + overrated skill + uninspiring college performance = future NBA bust.

I get so tired of some of these arguments.

Just because Larry Bird wasn't the greatest athlete in the world doesn't mean you should ignore the lack of athleticism in a college player. For every Larry Bird, there are dozens of Adam Morrisions, Luke Babbitts, and Jae Crowders.

Just because Drummond had a disappointing, underachieving freshman year where he exhibited few refined basketball skills doesn't mean we should ignore when players underachieve. For every Andre Drummond, there are dozens of Stromille Swifts, Joe Alexanders and Hasheem Thabeets

[verbal8]

nate, as far as that 3&D guard...

http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Michael-Snaer-5687/

Looks a little bit like the type of player who tends to out-perform initial NBA expectations.

He seems like he would be better suited as a role player in the NBA, than being a star in college. I think I like Muscala or Walters a little better, but there also is a good chance they are gone before the Wizards pick. If Snaer is available with the late 2nd rounder, he would be an obvious choice.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

That doesn't jibe at all with the rips he's taking on this board. In addition to issues with his size, and him being overage (and a fraud in that sense), the biggest hits continually are on his character, and the way he plays.

Well if he has legit NBA scoring ability, and every scouting report I've come across agrees on that point AND he works his but off, and plays hard as hell. Then why on earth wouldn't we want that, and how does it really jibe with the idea that he's basically a bad guy, and a 1 note player. A player who plays his butt off, and works hard and has an elite NBA skill is by his very nature one of the best five or six prospects in this draft, and inherently better, at least now as a prospect, than any of the lower rated guys that keep getting placed ahead of him on so many fans boards.

Consig, those fans sleeping on Shabazz will be eating a full plate of crow by this time next year.

DCZards, how is the career of Tyreke Evans going? Shabazz is not the same kind of player but I recall not liking something about Evans prior to the draft the same way I don't like Muhammed. I feel the same way about Bennett.

Surely the talent is there but something tells me the player won't have heart and hustle at the next level.

[DCZards]

DCZards, how is the career of Tyreke Evans going? Shabazz is not the same kind of player but I recall not liking something about Evans prior to the draft the same way I don't like Muhammed. I feel the same way about Bennett.

Surely the talent is there but something tells me the player won't have heart and hustle at the next level.

Ccj, last year I was hearing some of the same arguments about Harrison Barnes that I'm hearing about Muhammad this year--not athletic enough, too one-dimensional, doesn't play with heart. Well, this year Barnes is avg. 15 pts., 6 rebs in the NBA playoffs....and he's a rookie who is only going to get better.

[tontoz]

DCZards, how is the career of Tyreke Evans going? Shabazz is not the same kind of player but I recall not liking something about Evans prior to the draft the same way I don't like Muhammed. I feel the same way about Bennett.

Surely the talent is there but something tells me the player won't have heart and hustle at the next level.

Ccj, last year I was hearing some of the same arguments about Harrison Barnes that I'm hearing about Muhammad this year--not athletic enough, too one-dimensional, doesn't play with heart. Well, this year Barnes is avg. 15 pts., 6 rebs in the NBA playoffs....and he's a rookie who is only going to get better.

Your memory is definitely different from mine. At the combine Barnes had good speed, strength and a 39" vertical. I don't remember people criticizing his athleticism at all.

What he didn't have was ball handling ability and that showed up in his PER of 11 during the regular season.

[BruceO]

The number of draft picks people have will factor into mechanics of this draft. Cleveland and Portland have four draft picks each. I suspect cleveland trades tristan thompson and waiters for aldridge giving portland a waiters, lillard backcourt and cleveland an irving possibly oladipo one. Atlanta and minnesota too have four which i think will be utilized in quick rebuilds. Flip fired the old scouts so i wonder what that says.

OKC, phil, dc, det, grizz, utah and ind got 3 picks. GSW, Mia and raps got none

I suspect len goes to us or sacramento. I think schroeder goes around the 14th-16th slot. I like reggie bullock cause its hard to get someone who can defend and not be an offensive liability, Ledo will go late first, early second. Jack cooley of Notre dame might be a songaila type and be a stretch forward. I heard he shot 60 percent of his threes in laker workout. Will prolly replace jamison..good rebounder too

my goal would be (len or oladipo), (bullock or ledo) and then (cooley or pierre jackson)

[DCZards]

Your memory is definitely different from mine. At the combine Barnes had good speed, strength and a 39" vertical. I don't remember people criticizing his athleticism at all.

What he didn't have was ball handling ability and that showed up in his PER of 11 during the regular season.

You are absolutely right, tontoz. BUT prior to the combine some people on this board we're saying the same thing about Barnes' speed and athleticism that they are now saying about Shabazz...prior to the combine.

[tontoz]

Your memory is definitely different from mine. At the combine Barnes had good speed, strength and a 39" vertical. I don't remember people criticizing his athleticism at all.

What he didn't have was ball handling ability and that showed up in his PER of 11 during the regular season.

You are absolutely right, tontoz. BUT prior to the combine some people on this board we're saying the same thing about Barnes' speed and athleticism that they are now saying about Shabazz...prior to the combine.

I must have missed that. I just remember people criticizing Barnes lack of handle and playmaking. It was widely conceded that Barnes would be a good defender.

I seriously doubt Bazz is going to show out at the combine.

[nate33]

What has helped Barnes a lot in the playoffs is that Golden State has gone small ball with Lee out. Barnes is playing stretch four, where his mediocre ball-handling skills aren't noticed. One nice thing about Barnes is that he might have the frame to grow into a full time stretch four.

[fishercob]

So, Chad Ford seems to think Len is in Ernie's sights. And I've heard similar talk for quite a while that Ernie loves Len as a prospect.

He is a classic Ernie pick, high on upside with little proven history of production, and European. Add in he's a local player he can hype to the fan base adds even more reason to choose him.

But how do we feel about Len as our pick? He fills a need. His injury would keep him out of summer league, training camp, and possibly the start of the year. He would most likely not contribute this year. He would essentially be a pick for the future, similar to a draft and stash.

But is his upside worth it? Valanciunas was a similar high pick despite the prospect of waiting.

Seems at 8 we are looking at Len and his considerable question marks. Or Muhammad and his issues.

I don't think it will hurt him. However, had he been able to workout, I think he would've shined in that setting and could have potentially helped his stock. We have him going No. 8 to the Wizards in our latest Mock. Before the injuries I saw scenarios where he could have been the No. 2 or No. 3 pick. Still might, but hard to move up the board when you are injured.

It would seem that the Wizards and Len are on a collision course. And there isn't a more #SoWizards thing then us drafting a guy who is already hurt. The hopes, the fears, the what-ifs, the built in excuses. Alex and the Wizards are meant for each other. I say we just embrace it.

Fatalistic kidding somewhat aside, I don't have a problem with the pick. While it is somewhat unfortunate that a year of Len's rookie deal will essentially be wasted, the truth is that I don't think it's reasonable to expect that much from him during his rookie deal, at least not for a couple of years. That's right -- I'd be okay drafting Len, knowing we're doing so mainly for his second contract.

Marc Gasol was a rookie at 24. HIbbert was a rook at 22 after a 4-year college career and only played 14 mg as a rook. Larry Sanders blossomed at 24. Len's about to turn 20. I wouldn't be shocked if he didn't produce much until he was 22 or 23.

WHile it would obviously be better if he was productive sooner, I don't think it's the worst thing in the world for the Wizards to be takign the long view -- particularly with Wall and Beal so young. In fact, the worst thing the front office could do is to "speed up" the rebuilding process by setting their sites lower and just focusing on getting into the playoffs and maybe winning a round.

If the Wizards believe in Len -- and to me that means (1) that they have no long term health concerns and (2) that they trust him to be a tireless worker -- they should pick him. There's no other way to get franchise centers because teams just don't let these guys get away. In the off chance that someone desirable hits the market, the acquisition cost is nearly always a losing proposition.

[DCZards]

I must have missed that. I just remember people criticizing Barnes lack of handle and playmaking. It was widely conceded that Barnes would be a good defender.

I seriously doubt Bazz is going to show out at the combine.

I too have my doubts about Shabazz being anything about an average athlete. But if great athleticism was the only or main criteria for having a successful NBA career Javale McGee would be one of the best big men of all-time.

[tontoz]

I must have missed that. I just remember people criticizing Barnes lack of handle and playmaking. It was widely conceded that Barnes would be a good defender.

I seriously doubt Bazz is going to show out at the combine.

I too have my doubts about Shabazz being anything about an average athlete. But if great athleticism was the only or main criteria for having a successful NBA career Javale McGee would be one of the best big men of all-time.

The problem with Bazz is that he comes up short in a lot of areas, not just athleticism. He has tweener size, doesn't do much other than score, and his scoring efficiency isn't that good.

[DCZards]

If the Wizards believe in Len -- and to me that means (1) that they have no long term health concerns and (2) that they trust him to be a tireless worker -- they should pick him. There's no other way to get franchise centers because teams just don't let these guys get away. In the off chance that someone desirable hits the market, the acquisition cost is nearly always a losing proposition.

Yeah, fish. If you look at the impact that guys like Asik in Houston or Vucevic in Orlando or Pekovic in Minny are having, you have to want a guy like that on your team. Len is bigger than all of them (maybe with the exception of Asik) and more athletic. He's at the top of my wish list for the Zards, assuming they are picking outside of the top three, and the injury doesn't change that.