Countdown to Ernie Grunfeld Firing (Part 2)

[MikeTheKid]

Who traded two picks for Glen Rice when he could have sat tight ended up with Nate Wolters.

Dammit Nate Wolters would be great!!!

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I said that the day they traded his rights.

I said words to same as "Dammit Marshall would have been great for Washington", the day Ernie waived him.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using RealGM Forums mobile app

[mhd]

I said that the day they traded his rights.

I said words to same as "Dammit Marshall would have been great for Washington", the day Ernie waived him.

Sent from my SGH-M919 using RealGM Forums mobile app

We all said it CCJ. Marshall was never coming here b/c it would have made public what everyone knew: Maynor stinks and is a huge waste of a contract. EG's first duty is to save his own skin and he has no loyalty to the Wizards at all.

[Dat2U]

I'm still not a big Marshall fan. He can't defend his on shadow. He's shooting an unsustainable .473 on 3s. He's in D'Antoni's system which means lots of assists and opportunities to score for the PG. Put him anywhere else in the league and it's a lot tougher for him.

That said he's performing a helluva lot better than the current options on the roster. I don't necessarily consider him a real big loss though.

[mhd]

I'm still not a big Marshall fan. He can't defend his on shadow. He's shooting an unsustainable .473 on 3s. He's in D'Antoni's system which means lots of assists and opportunities to score for the PG. Put him anywhere else in the league and it's a lot tougher for him.

That said he's performing a helluva lot better than the current options on the roster. I don't necessarily consider him a real big loss though.

The Wiz could have easily cut trash like Singleton for Marshall. EVERYONE who saw the pre-season knew that Maynor was hot garbage.

[Dat2U]

If I were gm: honest assessment of my recent track record:

2009 draft: wanted steph curry (liked him by a hair over rubio) and dejuan blair; desperately wanted another pick to draft ty lawson (hopefully by swapping picks with minny).

2010 draft: wanted john wall (no brainer imo) and hassan whiteside, solomon alabi or dominique jones (triple lol); desperately wanted another pick to draft greg monroe (byod deal - hinrich type).

2011 draft: wanted kemba walker, kenneth faried (admittedly singleton was very close 2nd choice i was ok with him being selected) and jeremy tyler.

2012 draft: wanted to trade up for michael kidd-gilchrist. would have settled for bradley beal (and would have traded him or MKG in a heartbeat for james harden) and quincy miller (lol). would have taken okafor/ariza trade if 10th pick was included (wanted john henson)

2013 draft: wanted nerlens noel (surprised he fell, was ok with Porter in general but not over Noel) and pierre jackson (ok with trade for glen rice though as i had him with mid 1st rd grade, may have done the same). however I suggested trading out of draft entirely for much of the draft process and would have done so for right opportunity.

I think Ted needs to hire me.

[tontoz]

EG dropped his pants with Maynor. There were better options in the summer, better options in the fall and better options after the season started. Giving a 2 year deal to a garbage can was idiotic which so many of us said at the time.

It amazes me that idiots like EG get paid to make decisions about basketball.

[dckingsfan]

If I am Ted Leonsis, i'm not concerned with the feelings and suggestions of the fans from a management perspective, most if not all who will never own a multimillion dollar organzation or placed in the capacity to make business decisions of a General Manager. Most if not all who ever had such qualifications to run a large franchise and never will. I am concerned about profit and the end product. I am concerned of the blueprint of success i've had before (Capitals) and furthering the interests of the Washington Wizards and making them compete. The product is currently producing. Production leads to increased season ticket holder accounts and enthusiam from most fans who enjoy the game of basketball and a competitive home team fighting for the playoffs. The small minority of forum "Owners" and "GM's", well their opinions don't matter much.

Mr. Leonsis,

Thank You for stopping by this forum to give us your thoughts on the direction of your NBA franchise. By your posts, it is clear that you will be offering Ernie Grunfeld a contract extension. You have made it quite clear that your goal is fielding a team that is competitive enough to make the playoffs, thus generating interest from the casual fan who will purchase tickets to the games. You have expressed ZERO interest in building a team capable of competing for an NBA title.

You haven't mentioned ( I may have missed) what will become of Coach Wittman, what will be his fate? Thanks

I do think that Leonsis cares about season ticket holders... by extension, he does care what fans think about his handling of the franchise - and many of his comments reflect his sensitivity to this subject.

I am sure it drives him crazy that the fans aren't coming out - he will figure it out eventually.

[dckingsfan]

No one wants to fire the guy responsible for the Wizards being a game out of third, that has a few quality wins on the road, and that has a potential star at PG. They want to fire the guy whose team has compiled the third worst winning percentage since he took over. The guy who picked Vesely over Kawhi Leonard and Kenneth Faried. Who picked Chris Singleton over Faried. Who traded the 5th pick in the draft for Randy Foye and Mike Miller. Who sold the 2009 2nd round pick for cash instead of selecting DeJuan Blair. Who picked Shelvin Mack instead of Chandler Parsons or Isaiah Thomas. Who turned max-level cap space AND a first round pick into Okafor/Gortat and Trevor Ariza. Who thought Eric Maynor could play despite there being bountiful evidence to the contrary. Who picked Tomas Satoransky instead of Bernard James, Jae Crowder, Draymond Green or Kyle O'Quinn. Who traded two picks for Glen Rice when he could have sat tight ended up with Nate Wolters.

Game, Set, Match

[verbal8]

Who turned max-level cap space AND a first round pick into Okafor/Gortat and Trevor Ariza.

Don't forget the 2nd rounder or as EG calls it "a chance to trade for cash considerations" that the Wizards gave up to get Okafor and Ariza.

[payitforward]

If I were gm: honest assessment of my recent track record:

2009 draft: wanted steph curry (liked him by a hair over rubio) and dejuan blair; desperately wanted another pick to draft ty lawson (hopefully by swapping picks with minny).

2010 draft: wanted john wall (no brainer imo) and hassan whiteside, solomon alabi or dominique jones (triple lol); desperately wanted another pick to draft greg monroe (byod deal - hinrich type).

2011 draft: wanted kemba walker, kenneth faried (admittedly singleton was very close 2nd choice i was ok with him being selected) and jeremy tyler.

2012 draft: wanted to trade up for michael kidd-gilchrist. would have settled for bradley beal (and would have traded him or MKG in a heartbeat for james harden) and quincy miller (lol). would have taken okafor/ariza trade if 10th pick was included (wanted john henson)

2013 draft: wanted nerlens noel (surprised he fell, was ok with Porter in general but not over Noel) and pierre jackson (ok with trade for glen rice though as i had him with mid 1st rd grade, may have done the same). however I suggested trading out of draft entirely for much of the draft process and would have done so for right opportunity.

I think Ted needs to hire me.

Interesting. In my case:

2009 -- identical to you; exactly the same.

2010 -- undecided btwn Wall and Cousins; might have taken Cousins (probably would have -- hard to pass on that much size and talent). Thought Seraphin was a swing for the fences but ok, as we had 3 picks. Wanted one of Booker/James/Pondexter/Jones at #30 and was very happy w/ the trade up (as none of them made it to #30) and the choice.

2011 -- wanted to trade down, hoping to get Vucevic and Faried and Motiejunas -- as it turned out it would/might have been Vucevic, Faried and Leonard (whom I would certainly have taken over Motiejunas, just off his college numbers). Wanted Parsons in Round 2. Was ok/meh w/ Mack choice, but I thought he was pretty good w/ us and would *never* have waived him -- a stupid move; he now a very solid 20 minute a game PG in Atlanta for next to no $$.

2012 -- preferred Beal over Kidd-Gilchrist but would have been happy w/ the latter. But I really wanted to trade down massively (3 for Portland's 6 and 11; 11 for 2 lower Round 1 picks -- wrote about it here), hoping to spread risk among Drummond, Terrence Jones, Sullinger, and a couple of others. Probably pie in the sky idea. Desperately wanted either Crowder or Green at #32 and was furious we'd p*ssed away our #46, as I had and have high hopes for O'Quinn. (Yes, that would have been 5 rookies -- and wouldn't you like to have those 5 guys!!)

2013 -- I had no feel whatever for this draft. Fans like us don't have enough information to assess Noels' injury, can't assess him objectively. Porter seemed like a solid, skilled guy. I was fine taking him. Had no feel for MC-W and certainly not for Giannis Alotaletterskiddo. I'd have been happy to trade down to have 2 picks, just so as to have less pressure on a pick in a draft I thought was hard to judge. If we'd traded down, I liked Schroeder and maybe Gobert -- but really I had no feel for this R1, found it hard to settle on anyone. Definitely liked Wolters w/ our #38; a no-brainer pick. And I had Arselan Khazemi pencilled in at our #4X wch the genius gave away to move up and take a much longer shot in Glen Rice.

Ted wouldn't need to hire you if he'd hired me, dat. But I'd have hired you as a consultant for the '13 draft -- and if you'd done a good job I might have kept you on.

[payitforward]

If I am Ted Leonsis, i'm not concerned with the feelings and suggestions of the fans from a management perspective, most if not all who will never own a multimillion dollar organzation or placed in the capacity to make business decisions of a General Manager. Most if not all who ever had such qualifications to run a large franchise and never will. I am concerned about profit and the end product. I am concerned of the blueprint of success i've had before (Capitals) and furthering the interests of the Washington Wizards and making them compete. The product is currently producing. Production leads to increased season ticket holder accounts and enthusiam from most fans who enjoy the game of basketball and a competitive home team fighting for the playoffs. The small minority of forum "Owners" and "GM's", well their opinions don't matter much.

Well, I don't exactly blame milellie111 for writing this kind of twaddle, as he was invited to do so.

Some of us here might actually have run pretty big organizations, millie, you never know -- here's a hint: look for the ones who can spell better than you.

You are right, of course, that the opinions of people like us don't matter much. That is, they don't influence decisions. We can see that easily enough in the decisions the Wizards' FO does make.

But, in 2011 I would have picked Kawhi Leonard over Jan Vesely, and I said so. I would have been right, or I would have been wrong -- one or the other -- despite the fact that my preference didn't matter much.

Now I know that 2011 was a long time ago, maybe before you had hair under your arms? But if your memory stretches back that far, please tell me: was I right (because Kawhi Leonard is a better player than Vesely)? Or was I wrong (because Jan Vesely is a better player than Leonard)?

If you are willing to think about that question, and give me your honest answer one way or the other, I'll be willing to listen to your opinions and preferences, and I'll give you my honest answers about them too. Is that fair?

So... what do you think -- we both know that my analysis doesn't matter to the Wizards (nor would I ever imagine that it did!), but given that fact do you agree with me or disagree?

[payitforward]

Oh, and I should add, by the way, that if you can't answer the question, because you don't know what the answer is, I think we can all safely disregard anything you say; you'll have shown that you don't know anything about basketball.

If, on the other hand, you can answer the question, but you choose not to, in that case as well I think we can all safely disregard anything you say; you'll have shown that you don't have any interest in interacting w/ people here, in which case obviously none of us would have any reason to interact with you.

In either case, in other words, I think it'll be time for everyone to put you on "ignore." I know I will, and I'll strongly suggest that others do the same. Now, note -- this would not be because you disagree w/ me. I don't ignore people who disagree with me (far from it! ask LyricalRico and a few others). It would be because you've shown either that you can't respond to a simple basketball question or that you won't. If you respond -- either way -- no reason to put you on ignore. No reason to think you're a "troll" or a bad person in any sense.

In other words, to reduce the above to its simplest expression: put up or shut up.

Doclinkin -- what do you think? Am I asking too much of milellie111. Or what? Still want to jump into his camp?

[montestewart]

If I am Ted Leonsis, i'm not concerned with the feelings and suggestions of the fans from a management perspective, most if not all who will never own a multimillion dollar organzation or placed in the capacity to make business decisions of a General Manager. Most if not all who ever had such qualifications to run a large franchise and never will.

If I'm Ray Kroc, and I installed you as CEO of McDonalds, you would be qualified to run McDonalds, but if I hadn't, you wouldn't be qualified to run McDonalds, and I haven't, so you aren't! Management doesn't give a [choose another word] what consumers think. Management doesn't give a [choose another word] what you think. Consumers don't think. Who the [choose another word] cares what you think about a Big Mac? You don't think! It tastes great because I say it tastes great. It has always tasted great. It will always taste great. Bilellions of people agree with me, as I have told them to do, therefore, I am right. I'm a bilellionaire, and you're a [choose another word] burger eater. See the difference? Good, now [choose another word] off.

[hands11]

Unseld's worst moves
...
Juwan Howard's extension
...

Actually, the Juwan Howard contract extension was the one thing Wes Unseld did right. He saw Juwan's true value, and offered him a low contract. Howard didn't like the contract offer, and took a much better offer from the Heat. But, then all hell broke loose. The Wizards fans went nuts. David Stern found some reason to say that the Heat contract was not valid. Supposedly, the Heat made a verbal contract with someone (Mourning, I believe) before signing Howard. David Stern then allowed the Wizards to sign Howard, but they had to sign him at the contract the Heat gave him, which was much higher than Unseld's offer. I was part of the chorus hating on Unseld and Polin for letting Howard get away, but in hindsight they were right with their initial contract offer.

Here is some more to that story. It was Nash who played hardball with Howard by not giving him what he wanted. Howard wanted this really great rookie deal back before things worked as cleanly as they do now. I can't remember the exact number but he wanted like 10M a year or something for his first year. Before he has even stepped on the court. That's how nuts the NBA was at one point. The signing on draft picks was way more nuts. Couple that with player coming out earlier and things were becoming a mess.

Howard decided that instead of taking a longer term deal for less, he would play on a one year option. He then went on to have a good year. His agent then pretty much had Nash fired saying they wouldn't negotiate with him, so Abe and Wes took over and blow the negotiations.

At that point, the Wizards had lost there GM and Howard

Then like you said, the NBA stepped in saying Miami couldn't do what they did and Howard came back to play for way more then he should have. It was then later MJ who came in to clean up this mess along with the other messes Abe and Wes created like Ike Austin. Then Abe fired MJ and went on to create new messes like Gils contract and AJs to a lesser degree.

So here we are. The post Abe era. So far they haven't tied their hands with any colossal contract Fups like Abe would engage in. They shipped McGee and Nick off instead of overpaying over many years.

So thats were they are. Average GM who had the #1 and #3 twice and who is trying to avoid the massive F up. That should get you to about .500 Once they upgrade at coach, that could get them to the 5 or so over .500 range.

[hands11]

Who turned max-level cap space AND a first round pick into Okafor/Gortat and Trevor Ariza.

Don't forget the 2nd rounder or as EG calls it "a chance to trade for cash considerations" that the Wizards gave up to get Okafor and Ariza.

EG has done enough bad to not have to reach on things like this by twisting the truth. He traded the worst contract in the league for Lewis who the turned into Okafor and Trevor Ariza. Then just before the season started Okafor went down so he traded that contract plus a protected first for Gortat.

[Severn Hoos]

And all of this is before we discuss why Howard had a clause in his contract that allowed him to opt out after his 2nd season. That'd be because Unseld and Abe Pollin didn't like the way rookie contracts worked back then, and thought they'd try to change the system on their own. Howard wanted the going rate for a rookie picked in his spot: 6 years, $24 million. Unseld and Pollin signed him for significantly less in the first two years, but gave him an opt out after the second. Howard made the All-Star team (mainly by shooting a lot -- the rest of his numbers are pedestrian), and got PAID.

John Nash, not Wes Unseld was the GM when Howard was drafted and signed.

Yep, you're correct. I think I got the rest right.

Yes, the rest is right but there's one additional detail that always gets left out of the retelling of the Howard Fiasco that, while not fully exonerating Nash & Pollin, at least makes them looks slightly less like complete morons.

Howard's package could be worth $41.6 million over 12 years, but he has the option to become a restricted free agent after two years.

...

The Bullets phoned Falk around midday and offered Howard an escape clause after the second year of the deal. Previously, the escape clause, which allows Howard to test the free agent market and increase his salary, had been after the third year. Falk, ready to get his client in action, phoned Howard, who accepted.

Howard's first 11 years are guaranteed at $35.9 million, but the Bullets have a $750,000 buyout option for the 12th year, making the guaranteed portion of the deal $36.6 million. If Howard exercises the escape clause in 1996, he'd be a restricted free agent, meaning the Bullets would have the right to match any offer.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/sp ... 111894.htm

Between November 1994 and July 1996, the new Collective Bargaining Agreement wiped out restricted free agency and converted all restricted FAs into unrestricted FAs. So the Bullets lost the leverage they had negotiated into the contract, to be able to match any offer.

Would it have mattered? Who knows. Maybe Miami does the same offer sheet, the Wiz simply match it, and there's never the back-and-forth with the NBA voiding the Heat contract. Or maybe the Heat look elsewhere, assuming the Wiz would just match anyway. Maybe the best offer Howard receives is the $80M the Wiz originally put out there (still too much, but a whole lot better than $105M).

Doesn't mean it wasn't a dumb move, but it did suck that the contract could be changed after the fact like that....

[Zonkerbl]

Frickin burger eaters.

[tontoz]

In either case, in other words, I think it'll be time for everyone to put you on "ignore." I know I will, and I'll strongly suggest that others do the same.

Weren't you the guy who said he was too hilarious to put in ignore?

[milellie111]

If I am Ted Leonsis, i'm not concerned with the feelings and suggestions of the fans from a management perspective, most if not all who will never own a multimillion dollar organzation or placed in the capacity to make business decisions of a General Manager. Most if not all who ever had such qualifications to run a large franchise and never will. I am concerned about profit and the end product. I am concerned of the blueprint of success i've had before (Capitals) and furthering the interests of the Washington Wizards and making them compete. The product is currently producing. Production leads to increased season ticket holder accounts and enthusiam from most fans who enjoy the game of basketball and a competitive home team fighting for the playoffs. The small minority of forum "Owners" and "GM's", well their opinions don't matter much.

Well, I don't exactly blame milellie111 for writing this kind of twaddle, as he was invited to do so.

Some of us here might actually have run pretty big organizations, millie, you never know -- here's a hint: look for the ones who can spell better than you.

You are right, of course, that the opinions of people like us don't matter much. That is, they don't influence decisions. We can see that easily enough in the decisions the Wizards' FO does make.

But, in 2011 I would have picked Kawhi Leonard over Jan Vesely, and I said so. I would have been right, or I would have been wrong -- one or the other -- despite the fact that my preference didn't matter much.

Now I know that 2011 was a long time ago, maybe before you had hair under your arms? But if your memory stretches back that far, please tell me: was I right (because Kawhi Leonard is a better player than Vesely)? Or was I wrong (because Jan Vesely is a better player than Leonard)?

If you are willing to think about that question, and give me your honest answer one way or the other, I'll be willing to listen to your opinions and preferences, and I'll give you my honest answers about them too. Is that fair?

So... what do you think -- we both know that my analysis doesn't matter to the Wizards (nor would I ever imagine that it did!), but given that fact do you agree with me or disagree?

I see... I'm a Wizards fan and you are an Ernie Grunfeld hater.

Sad that this team has promise, is competitive, in the playoff race and Wall was named an allstar and all you can focus on is firing the GM?