Official Trade Thread - Part XXXII

[NatP4]

Standing pat is the best option, but our GM still failed John Wall. Benches are easy to fix, and our bench seems to be moving in the right direction. However, an upgraded, league-average bench isn't going to get us to Cleveland's level. Where we failed John Wall is our history of transactions/signings since Wall started heading towards his prime. Beal and Porter are great, but Markieff and Gortat are not enough for championship contention.

Obviously, it's incredibly difficult to compete for a ring even if we aggressively surrounded Wall with stars. However, we haven't even tried; we haven't taken enough risks. Markieff and Gortat are our current starters, but are there any young prospects behind them that you can point to as having potential?? After our "big three", the only player on our team with a hint of star upside is Oubre. We're stuck in mediocrity and we've never even made an attempt to get out of it. We've been complacent on just making the playoffs. We're trying hard to upgrade the bench, but it's not the long-term solution.

If we ever want to be a contender with this core, we need to take a risk on a young big in the draft. No more trading picks for solid old players. If possible, try to sign young front-court players in free agency who have star upside (haha we have no cap room). Repeatedly signing veterans only solidifies us in mediocrity and never raises our ceiling.

In other words, we're still wasting Wall's prime. And the clock is ticking.

and now it's time to point out the obvious, if Ernie didn't trade for those two players and instead drafted high upside forwards with the 13th overall picks, we would probably never have made the playoffs, and would be stuck without two starting frontcourt players while sitting here with two busts like in the past. You overrate the eastern conference, Ernie is not at fault for not signing Lebron James. I get your overall point, but did he not try for Kevin Durant and Al Horford?

Do you really honestly believe that Wall Beal Oubre Porter isn't a talented enough core to contend in the east at some point? I agree he's failed on the bench part for awhile now, but I think he's hit a home run on this one, it's just taking some time, but the question is about the core.

[Meliorus]

Standing pat is the best option, but our GM still failed John Wall. Benches are easy to fix, and our bench seems to be moving in the right direction. However, an upgraded, league-average bench isn't going to get us to Cleveland's level. Where we failed John Wall is our history of transactions/signings since Wall started heading towards his prime. Beal and Porter are great, but Markieff and Gortat are not enough for championship contention.

Obviously, it's incredibly difficult to compete for a ring even if we aggressively surrounded Wall with stars. However, we haven't even tried; we haven't taken enough risks. Markieff and Gortat are our current starters, but are there any young prospects behind them that you can point to as having potential?? After our "big three", the only player on our team with a hint of star upside is Oubre. We're stuck in mediocrity and we've never even made an attempt to get out of it. We've been complacent on just making the playoffs. We're trying hard to upgrade the bench, but it's not the long-term solution.

If we ever want to be a contender with this core, we need to take a risk on a young big in the draft. No more trading picks for solid old players. If possible, try to sign young front-court players in free agency who have star upside (haha we have no cap room). Repeatedly signing veterans only solidifies us in mediocrity and never raises our ceiling.

In other words, we're still wasting Wall's prime. And the clock is ticking.

and now it's time to point out the obvious, if Ernie didn't trade for those two players and instead drafted high upside forwards with the 13th overall picks, we would probably never have made the playoffs, and would be stuck without two starting frontcourt players while sitting here with two busts like in the past. You overrate the eastern conference, Ernie is not at fault for not signing Lebron James. I get your overall point, but did he not try for Kevin Durant and Al Horford?

Do you really honestly believe that Wall Beal Oubre Porter isn't a talented enough core to contend in the east at some point? I agree he's failed on the bench part for awhile now, but I think he's hit a home run on this one, it's just taking some time, but the question is about the core.

It's not about how much upside Wall/Beal/Porter have, it's about maximizing the number of upside players the team has. Adding more upside players gives us a higher probability of reaching contention. Instead of having 4 players with upside (including Oubre), we could have 7. Do you see how this improves our odds of reaching contention?

If we didn't do the Morris trade, our entire roster would be different. Not getting Markieff would have given us the opportunity to sign a better power forward in free agency and also draft a high upside big. If we didn't trade for Markieff, Ernie would have addressed the void at PF and signed a guy like Ryan Anderson. Signing Ryan Anderson means that we wouldn't have signed 2 out of 3 of Manhimi/Nicholson/Smith. So easily, we could have had Anderson + a high upside big. Instead, we got Markieff + veteran bigs. Do you see how this limits our ceiling? Anderson can be considered equal to Markieff, but a high upside big is better than veteran bigs.

Ernie thinks we're in win now mode, but our definition of a "win" is getting the 4th seed.

[NatP4]

Standing pat is the best option, but our GM still failed John Wall. Benches are easy to fix, and our bench seems to be moving in the right direction. However, an upgraded, league-average bench isn't going to get us to Cleveland's level. Where we failed John Wall is our history of transactions/signings since Wall started heading towards his prime. Beal and Porter are great, but Markieff and Gortat are not enough for championship contention.

Obviously, it's incredibly difficult to compete for a ring even if we aggressively surrounded Wall with stars. However, we haven't even tried; we haven't taken enough risks. Markieff and Gortat are our current starters, but are there any young prospects behind them that you can point to as having potential?? After our "big three", the only player on our team with a hint of star upside is Oubre. We're stuck in mediocrity and we've never even made an attempt to get out of it. We've been complacent on just making the playoffs. We're trying hard to upgrade the bench, but it's not the long-term solution.

If we ever want to be a contender with this core, we need to take a risk on a young big in the draft. No more trading picks for solid old players. If possible, try to sign young front-court players in free agency who have star upside (haha we have no cap room). Repeatedly signing veterans only solidifies us in mediocrity and never raises our ceiling.

In other words, we're still wasting Wall's prime. And the clock is ticking.

and now it's time to point out the obvious, if Ernie didn't trade for those two players and instead drafted high upside forwards with the 13th overall picks, we would probably never have made the playoffs, and would be stuck without two starting frontcourt players while sitting here with two busts like in the past. You overrate the eastern conference, Ernie is not at fault for not signing Lebron James. I get your overall point, but did he not try for Kevin Durant and Al Horford?

Do you really honestly believe that Wall Beal Oubre Porter isn't a talented enough core to contend in the east at some point? I agree he's failed on the bench part for awhile now, but I think he's hit a home run on this one, it's just taking some time, but the question is about the core.

Drafting high upside players leaves us with money to sign another starting power forward. Not getting Markieff would have given us the opportunity to sign an even better power forward and also draft a high upside big. If we didn't trade for Markieff, Ernie would have addressed the void at PF and signed a guy like Ryan Anderson. Signing Ryan Anderson means that we wouldn't have signed 2 out of 3 of Manhimi/Nicholson/Smith. So easily, we could have had Anderson + a high upside big. Instead, we got Markieff + veteran bigs. Do you see how this limits our ceiling?

Yes I hear you, but we haven't even seen Mahinmi yet, and I don't think Ryan Anderson is better than Morris(don't know about advanced stats). I guess we just look at the talent level differently.

I see a playoff frontcourt of:
Morris/Otto
Gortat/Mahinmi

And I think that's pretty good compared to the rest of the eastern conference, I see our 1-3 as the best in the east outside of Cleveland obviously, with Satoransky and Oubre as impact players off the bench. I guess what I'm saying is that I think we have the 2nd best talent level in the east, and you can't fault EG for not signing Lebron James.

Okafor got hurt right before the season, we had no choice but to make the Gortat trade and we retained him in the offseason, I have no defense over the Morris trade, I wanted us to start Otto at PF, but I think Morris is going to be a good asset in the playoffs.

I don't think it's as easy to transform this team into a Cleveland level team as you say it is.

[Meliorus]

and now it's time to point out the obvious, if Ernie didn't trade for those two players and instead drafted high upside forwards with the 13th overall picks, we would probably never have made the playoffs, and would be stuck without two starting frontcourt players while sitting here with two busts like in the past. You overrate the eastern conference, Ernie is not at fault for not signing Lebron James. I get your overall point, but did he not try for Kevin Durant and Al Horford?

Do you really honestly believe that Wall Beal Oubre Porter isn't a talented enough core to contend in the east at some point? I agree he's failed on the bench part for awhile now, but I think he's hit a home run on this one, it's just taking some time, but the question is about the core.

Drafting high upside players leaves us with money to sign another starting power forward. Not getting Markieff would have given us the opportunity to sign an even better power forward and also draft a high upside big. If we didn't trade for Markieff, Ernie would have addressed the void at PF and signed a guy like Ryan Anderson. Signing Ryan Anderson means that we wouldn't have signed 2 out of 3 of Manhimi/Nicholson/Smith. So easily, we could have had Anderson + a high upside big. Instead, we got Markieff + veteran bigs. Do you see how this limits our ceiling?

Yes I hear you, but we haven't even seen Mahinmi yet, and I don't think Ryan Anderson is better than Morris(don't know about advanced stats). I guess we just look at the talent level differently.

I see a playoff frontcourt of:
Morris/Otto
Gortat/Mahinmi

And I think that's pretty good compared to the rest of the eastern conference, I see our 1-3 as the best in the east outside of Cleveland obviously, with Satoransky and Oubre as impact players off the bench. I guess what I'm saying is that I think we have the 2nd best talent level in the east, and you can't fault EG for not signing Lebron James.

Okafor got hurt right before the season, we had no choice but to make the Gortat trade and we retained him in the offseason, I have no defense over the Morris trade, I wanted us to start Otto at PF, but I think Morris is going to be a good asset in the playoffs.

I don't think it's as easy to transform this team into a Cleveland level team as you say it is.

It's not about signing "Lebron James". I never said we should make aggressive moves at "star" free agents. There are no star free agents who would sign with the Wizards. My definition of "trying harder to be a contender" is drafting high upside prospects and signing high-upside players, not trading away picks and signing veterans.

It's not about guaranteeing the team to reach Cleveland's level. It's about giving the team the BEST chance at reaching that level. Even if we surrounded Wall/Beal/Porter with a bunch of high upside big men, the team could easily fail and still be a middle-of-the-pack team. However, it gives us the BEST chance at reaching Cleveland's level. Signing veterans does not increase our ceiling.

[Illuminaire]

On top of Mel's points, please do remember that Morris' production* is roughly equivalent to the average player drafted at the position of the pick we gave up. He's not any better than most of the players drafted in the mid first round! Of course there was the chance of drafting a bust there, that happens some times.

But you know what happens even more often? You get just as good a player, or better, at a fraction of the cap cost.


*That's cherry picking his two best seasons. Take his overall numbers and the pick is a no brainer.

[gambitx777]

We can make this team a threat to cleveland by fixing the bench. It's doable but it's going to coast picks and that in itself will continue the problem but if a ring or deep playoff run is made maybe it's worth it. But, can we stop pretending Morris is awful, hes been playing really well. Give the dude some credit and stop saying he is not a worthy starter, he is, he is not a top level starter no. But he does deserve to be a starter.

[Dark Faze]

we're not far from the 4th seed at all

honestly I'm ready to go all in on a big impact player--give up two firsts for a huge difference maker and see how far we can push this thing

DMC?

Sure. The Kings are dead for this season now unfortunately with the Gay injury, and they can't even bottom out because Philly can swap the pick. Its a nightmare scenario for DMC to be a part of prior to signing an extension. As well, Gay will miss a lot of next year as well and will not opt out due to his injury, claiming even more of the Kings cap.

I would offer Mahinmi, Nicholson, and 3 firsts to achieve this.

Yes, 3 firsts. We keep all the talent currently on this team and add to it significantly. We can rest easy knowing that we went all in on the John Wall era. With such a core John and Cousins both extend and those picks end up in the late 20's every year anyway.

If it doesn't work we'll have our picks back before we decide to bottom out anyway, so it doesn't hurt an eventual rebuild. I just can't say how much I just want to put a stamp on the John Wall era. If we end up being the team that loses in the ECF every year to the Cavs then so be it. We can exhale with a sigh of relief and say hey you know what we went for it.

[NatP4]

Drafting high upside players leaves us with money to sign another starting power forward. Not getting Markieff would have given us the opportunity to sign an even better power forward and also draft a high upside big. If we didn't trade for Markieff, Ernie would have addressed the void at PF and signed a guy like Ryan Anderson. Signing Ryan Anderson means that we wouldn't have signed 2 out of 3 of Manhimi/Nicholson/Smith. So easily, we could have had Anderson + a high upside big. Instead, we got Markieff + veteran bigs. Do you see how this limits our ceiling?

Yes I hear you, but we haven't even seen Mahinmi yet, and I don't think Ryan Anderson is better than Morris(don't know about advanced stats). I guess we just look at the talent level differently.

I see a playoff frontcourt of:
Morris/Otto
Gortat/Mahinmi

And I think that's pretty good compared to the rest of the eastern conference, I see our 1-3 as the best in the east outside of Cleveland obviously, with Satoransky and Oubre as impact players off the bench. I guess what I'm saying is that I think we have the 2nd best talent level in the east, and you can't fault EG for not signing Lebron James.

Okafor got hurt right before the season, we had no choice but to make the Gortat trade and we retained him in the offseason, I have no defense over the Morris trade, I wanted us to start Otto at PF, but I think Morris is going to be a good asset in the playoffs.

I don't think it's as easy to transform this team into a Cleveland level team as you say it is.

It's not about signing "Lebron James". I never said we should make aggressive moves at "star" free agents. There are no star free agents who would sign with the Wizards. My definition of "trying harder to be a contender" is drafting high upside prospects and signing high-upside players, not trading away picks and signing veterans.

It's not about guaranteeing the team to reach Cleveland's level. It's about giving the team the BEST chance at reaching that level. Even if we surrounded Wall/Beal/Porter with a bunch of high upside big men, the team could easily fail and still be a middle-of-the-pack team. However, it gives us the BEST chance at reaching Cleveland's level. Signing veterans does not increase our ceiling.

And I'm saying that that is exactly what they did with the Oubre pick, a lot of people wanted a "vet" rookie like Portis or Jerian Grant, we had already gone to the 2nd round back to back years with a core of wall Beal Porter, Oubre was a surprise add to the core with high upside with the long term plan being to move Otto to power forward at times, IMO.

Gortat/Mahinmi is fine for the 5th link IMO. I totally get what you're saying, but he did do that with the Oubre pick and will resign Otto ontop of it.

[NatP4]

we're not far from the 4th seed at all

honestly I'm ready to go all in on a big impact player--give up two firsts for a huge difference maker and see how far we can push this thing

DMC?

Sure. The Kings are dead for this season now unfortunately with the Gay injury, and they can't even bottom out because Philly can swap the pick. Its a nightmare scenario for DMC to be a part of prior to signing an extension. As well, Gay will miss a lot of next year as well and will not opt out due to his injury, claiming even more of the Kings cap.

I would offer Mahinmi, Nicholson, and 3 firsts to achieve this.

Yes, 3 firsts. We keep all the talent currently on this team and add to it significantly. We can rest easy knowing that we went all in on the John Wall era. With such a core John and Cousins both extend and those picks end up in the late 20's every year anyway.

If it doesn't work we'll have our picks back before we decide to bottom out anyway, so it doesn't hurt an eventual rebuild. I just can't say how much I just want to put a stamp on the John Wall era. If we end up being the team that loses in the ECF every year to the Cavs then so be it. We can exhale with a sigh of relief and say hey you know what we went for it.

Absolutely no argument from me

[Meliorus]

we're not far from the 4th seed at all

honestly I'm ready to go all in on a big impact player--give up two firsts for a huge difference maker and see how far we can push this thing

DMC?

Sure. The Kings are dead for this season now unfortunately with the Gay injury, and they can't even bottom out because Philly can swap the pick. Its a nightmare scenario for DMC to be a part of prior to signing an extension. As well, Gay will miss a lot of next year as well and will not opt out due to his injury, claiming even more of the Kings cap.

I would offer Mahinmi, Nicholson, and 3 firsts to achieve this.

Yes, 3 firsts. We keep all the talent currently on this team and add to it significantly. We can rest easy knowing that we went all in on the John Wall era. With such a core John and Cousins both extend and those picks end up in the late 20's every year anyway.

If it doesn't work we'll have our picks back before we decide to bottom out anyway, so it doesn't hurt an eventual rebuild. I just can't say how much I just want to put a stamp on the John Wall era. If we end up being the team that loses in the ECF every year to the Cavs then so be it. We can exhale with a sigh of relief and say hey you know what we went for it.

This is a great way to increase our ceiling. It doesn't guarantee a championship or even a finals appearance, but it INCREASES our chances. Still, Kings say no because with business interests in mind, Boogie is the only reason why fans come to games. Also, they have a new stadium and are ready to offer Cousins the super-MAX.

[NatP4]

On top of Mel's points, please do remember that Morris' production* is roughly equivalent to the average player drafted at the position of the pick we gave up. He's not any better than most of the players drafted in the mid first round! Of course there was the chance of drafting a bust there, that happens some times.

But you know what happens even more often? You get just as good a player, or better, at a fraction of the cap cost.


*That's cherry picking his two best seasons. Take his overall numbers and the pick is a no brainer.

Keef costs 8 million, and that draft pick is not going to contribute right away, ESPECIALLY if you take the high upside guy.

[Ruzious]

I was listening to Cooley and Kevin talk Wizards this morning. As good as they are on football, they're that bad and moreso when talking hoops. The sad thing is Kevin Sheehan sounds like he thinks he's a basketball expert. Kevin was trying to sound smart this morning by saying Porter is legitimately improved to the point where he's the Wiz 3rd best player. Then he was "testing" Cooley's basketball knowledge by asking him if he'd take Porter over Morris. Very grudgingly, they decided Porter gets a tiny edge over Morris. Guys, look at the advanced numbers - it isn't close. They actually brought up the idea that someone could consider Porter to be as good or better than Beal as a joke. Another sad thing - I'm not sure there's anyone on their station that understands basketball stats well enough to argue with them - maybe Al Galdi, but that's it.

Here are some comps between Porter and Morris: PER: Porter leads 18.0 to 13.0, eFG: Porter 63% to 50%, Wins: Porter 5.8 to 2.2, ORPM Porter 2.36 to -1.26, DRPM: Porter 1.33 to 1.10. We could go on and on.

[Dark Faze]

This is a great way to increase our ceiling. It doesn't guarantee a championship or even a finals appearance, but it INCREASES our chances. Still, Kings say no because with business interests in mind, Boogie is the only reason why fans come to games. Also, they have a new stadium and are ready to offer Cousins the super-MAX.

They might say no, but honestly 3 firsts would be REALLY hard to turn down. Cousins seems content now, but how long will it last? They sign him to a contract and then he ends up raising hell searching for a trade by next years deadline and nobody is offering anywhere near as much value.

[Meliorus]

I was listening to Cooley and Kevin talk Wizards this morning. As good as they are on football, they're that bad and moreso when talking hoops. The sad thing is Kevin Sheehan sounds like he thinks he's a basketball expert. Kevin was trying to sound smart this morning by saying Porter is legitimately improved to the point where he's the Wiz 3rd best player. Then he was "testing" Cooley's basketball knowledge by asking him if he'd take Porter over Morris. Very grudgingly, they decided Porter gets a tiny edge over Morris. Guys, look at the advanced numbers - it isn't close. They actually brought up the idea that someone could consider Porter to be as good or better than Beal as a joke. Another sad thing - I'm not sure there's anyone on their station that understands basketball stats well enough to argue with them - maybe Al Galdi, but that's it.

Read on Twitter

They should be debating whether or not Porter should steal Paul George's All-Star spot.

[gambitx777]

This is a great way to increase our ceiling. It doesn't guarantee a championship or even a finals appearance, but it INCREASES our chances. Still, Kings say no because with business interests in mind, Boogie is the only reason why fans come to games. Also, they have a new stadium and are ready to offer Cousins the super-MAX.

They might say no, but honestly 3 firsts would be REALLY hard to turn down. Cousins seems content now, but how long will it last? They sign him to a contract and then he ends up raising hell searching for a trade by next years deadline and nobody is offering anywhere near as much value.

I would not offer them more than 2, and Id toss in seconds, but here is why. If you are giving them 3 it would have to be, 2017,2019,2021 or 2018,2020,2022. we are owing picks 4-5 years in the future. 3 picks that far out is a bit much. I would do 2 2017,2019 or 2018 2020 and the rights to swap a pick the year in between or the year after or before. that way you are keeping the picks owed within a comfortable range of holding that team together, instead of the outer max of that range. while decreasing the picks owed.

[NatP4]

This is a great way to increase our ceiling. It doesn't guarantee a championship or even a finals appearance, but it INCREASES our chances. Still, Kings say no because with business interests in mind, Boogie is the only reason why fans come to games. Also, they have a new stadium and are ready to offer Cousins the super-MAX.

They might say no, but honestly 3 firsts would be REALLY hard to turn down. Cousins seems content now, but how long will it last? They sign him to a contract and then he ends up raising hell searching for a trade by next years deadline and nobody is offering anywhere near as much value.

Trading one of the top centers in the league for 3 late first rounders would be a bad move, but you never know with the Kings organization or anyone.

We just played a game in which the other team didn't have Otto Porter on the scouting report.

[gambitx777]

This is a great way to increase our ceiling. It doesn't guarantee a championship or even a finals appearance, but it INCREASES our chances. Still, Kings say no because with business interests in mind, Boogie is the only reason why fans come to games. Also, they have a new stadium and are ready to offer Cousins the super-MAX.

They might say no, but honestly 3 firsts would be REALLY hard to turn down. Cousins seems content now, but how long will it last? They sign him to a contract and then he ends up raising hell searching for a trade by next years deadline and nobody is offering anywhere near as much value.

Trading one of the top centers in the league for 3 late first rounders would be a bad move, but you never know with the Kings organization or anyone.

We just played a game in which the other team didn't have Otto Porter on the scouting report.

Picks are picks, if hes not going to be happy or resign, then you need to move him. Honestly im shocked he is even considering taking an extension.

[sfam]

If we ever want to be a contender with this core, we need to take a risk on a young big in the draft. Don't draft the safe player who can only be a rotation player. Draft an athletic PF/C who has star upside (no matter how raw). No more trading picks for solid old players. If possible, try to sign young front-court players in free agency who have star upside (haha we have no cap room). Repeatedly signing veterans only solidifies us in mediocrity and never raises our ceiling.

In other words, we're still wasting Wall's prime. And the clock is ticking.

I was in favor of Noel over Porter so I agree with the logic. That said, I think Porter is working out just fine. I don't know that we find Mr. dominant around #17. We're much more likely to find an athletic knucklehead who calls himself "Pierre" there, who may take years to be productive.

Unless we can get someone like a Noel at a bargain, I think we may be better rolling with what we have in terms of talent outside of the 5 and try to find someone cheaper - Gortat like if you will for that position. I'm just not in favor of the raw athletic big unless you're near the top of the draft.

[stevemcqueen1]

we're not far from the 4th seed at all

honestly I'm ready to go all in on a big impact player--give up two firsts for a huge difference maker and see how far we can push this thing

DMC?

Sure. The Kings are dead for this season now unfortunately with the Gay injury, and they can't even bottom out because Philly can swap the pick. Its a nightmare scenario for DMC to be a part of prior to signing an extension. As well, Gay will miss a lot of next year as well and will not opt out due to his injury, claiming even more of the Kings cap.

I would offer Mahinmi, Nicholson, and 3 firsts to achieve this.

Yes, 3 firsts. We keep all the talent currently on this team and add to it significantly. We can rest easy knowing that we went all in on the John Wall era. With such a core John and Cousins both extend and those picks end up in the late 20's every year anyway.

If it doesn't work we'll have our picks back before we decide to bottom out anyway, so it doesn't hurt an eventual rebuild. I just can't say how much I just want to put a stamp on the John Wall era. If we end up being the team that loses in the ECF every year to the Cavs then so be it. We can exhale with a sigh of relief and say hey you know what we went for it.

I would make the trade too. You're getting a superstar for pennies on the dollar. But I don't see Sacramento saying yes to that offer. I don't see them cutting bait on Cousins, I think they're going to try to keep him until the end. And if they put him on the market, they'll probably get better offers from other teams.

[Ruzious]

My hunch is still Tyreke Evans. Since he's come back from an injury, he's been putting up great numbers off the bench, and NO's going nowhere. Hmmm, they could use a center like Mahinmi... if he ever gets healthy again - to play next to Anthony Davis. But we'd have to give up our 2017 1st rounder to make that trade happen.