The Amazingly Sucky Flip Saunders Thread

[BYRDMAN RULZ]

Even with all the injuries this team has I still think Flip's crazy player rotations are a big part of the problem. I am even starting to question his X's and O's. Some of the blame has to go on EG as well with the guard heavy roster he put together.

I still am not sure why NY, AB and D-Mac are not a more regular part of the rotation. I have a hard time believing McGhee cant get 15 minutes a game. At least we have not had an Oberto sighting for a while. I am also not sure how he can continue to leave Gilbert and AJ in the game down the stretch on defense. He even had Earl Boykins in the game when he was trying to get a stop. Whatever happened to situational substituion.

[TheSecretWeapon]

Something interesting I noticed on Ye Olde Spreadsheet today -- something I'd never seen before. The Wiz have lost 5 in a row, but their Pythagorean wins (expected wins based on scoring differential) IMPROVED slightly.

After beating Milwaukee, the Wiz scoring differential said the team would expect to have 30.1 wins over an 82-game schedule. After losing to the Clippers, the expected wins had risen to 31.2 wins. The Wiz have been losing VERY close.

But, that's not some kind of super-secret "good sign" or anything. The fact that they're in so many close games is a sign of weakness. Good teams tend to avoid close games. Good teams tend to win by more comfortable margins.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

As is, with all that's gone wrong, this team's 7-15 but could very easily be 11-11 with a few breaks.

Also, Pythagorean only goes by the combinations of players that actually play and their outcomes. Crazy ideas that just might work, such as Jamison at SF, sticking with Young at SG, and playing McGee some at PF and at C with Blatche haven't even been explored.

I think this team's about a 42-win team or better, but right now I think 38 wins is where they project to end up.

They're better than their record. Guard play and execution are poor, but the frontcourt depth hasn't been fully exploited.

Despite all my bitching, I still think these guys can achieve 42-45 wins, if Flip makes a gutsy call and makes Jamison or Butler the SF and brings the other off the bench.

Start Blatche and Young and just ride it out. When Miller comes back, Arenas, Foye, Miller, Jamison, Haywood seems right. (Hell, I don't have a clue either!) Politically, he brought Foye and Miller and won two of the first three with them starting--that could work with Butler, Blatche, Young, and Boykins off the bench.

Grunfeld's going to have to move some guys for the chemistry to even out. Stevenson, McGee (because Flip's not going to like this kid), Butler (redundant with Miller and ineffectual), Foye (if he's not getting major minutes due to it being a contract year) all are candidates. Arenas and Jamison for salary reasons.

Play for the playoffs but do make some moves is what EG/FLip should do.

[Hoopalotta]

CCJ, I agree that Grundfeld's going to have to move some guys yes, but if we don't bring back young players, I don't know where we're going with it.

Honestly, what's the point in 'achieving' 42-45 wins and then getting killed in the first round of the playoffs at the expense of our long term talent level?

Has Flip made mistakes? Sure, he has, yes. But honestly, the problems here are much greater than that. Flip's rotation issues are like a leaky handle on a toilet filled with turds. It ain't the big problem. This team is miserably at odds with itself. It seemed like a fair idea in theory, but the pieces don't fit.

If all these rotational tweaks that entail playing young cheap players over highly paid, high usage veterans needs to take place in the hopes of becoming a decent middle of the pack team in the woeful east, the problem is with the roster more so than with the coaching.

We're talking about $10 million dollar a year veterans taking a very public loss of face and being benched in favor of guys they remember bringing donuts to practice. Would I like to see it? Sure. But if we're even thinking about benching Butler, we just have to trade him. The dude would FUME on the bench and create a toxic workspace. Make that even toxic-er. We'd kill his trade value. Does the dude look happy now? I agree that we shouldn't care if he's happy, but it would be a heck'uva lot easier to deal with him being unhappy if he were, say, all the way to Memphis.

But the locker room is terrible already. The on court chemistry is terrible already. Tuhr'ible, just tuhr'ible. Two of our three 'best' players seem to strongly dislike each other and basically can't play together. It wasn't a month ago that guys were feuding publicly in the media. Guy's don't have established roles because outside of Jamison and Haywood, the starting line hasn't been even remotely consistent. If two of your top three options don't know where they fit in, including your first option and point guard, it's a trickle down dynamic.

Despite the close losses, our scoring differential is equivalent historically with 25-30 win teams. Things that start this badly are not going to suddenly turn around emphatically and procure postseason confetti. This team is waaaayy too inconsistent to hedge any hope at all on a first round match up with any of Boston, Orlando, Cleveland or Atlanta.

So where are we going?

Our doom cometh. Guy's like Battier and Landry might bring some roses to the funeral and stick a tic-tac in our mouth as we're being fitted for the coffin, but the hole be dug as is.

Free agents and older veterans on big contracts demands a decision before February. We'll never be in a better position to rebuild than we are right now. I say forget the peripheral wrangling and blow this ugly mother up with an orbital bombardment of neutron bombs. Bring in picks and prospects attached to some bad contracts and we'll see how Flip does in the role of teacher. If he's amazingly sucky in that role and plays Stevenson over Young when we're trying to develop young talent, then we can print this thread onto a billboard outside Verizon. But he's been dealt a losing hand here thus far, damned if he do and damned if he d'ain't.

I hope that doesn't sound like a jerk post CCJ, because i really do enjoy your views and quips. But I just think on this one, you're putting too much emphasis on the theoretical elements of the rotation and not enough emphasis on the personality driven facets that underlie the team.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

CCJ, I agree that Grundfeld's going to have to move some guys yes, but if we don't bring back young players, I don't know where we're going with it.

Honestly, what's the point in 'achieving' 42-45 wins and then getting killed in the first round of the playoffs at the expense of our long term talent level?

Has Flip made mistakes? Sure, he has, yes. But honestly, the problems here are much greater than that. Flip's rotation issues are like a leaky handle on a toilet filled with turds. It ain't the big problem. This team is miserably at odds with itself. It seemed like a fair idea in theory, but the pieces don't fit.

If all these rotational tweaks that entail playing young cheap players over highly paid, high usage veterans needs to take place in the hopes of becoming a decent middle of the pack team in the woeful east, the problem is with the roster more so than with the coaching.

We're talking about $10 million dollar a year veterans taking a very public loss of face and being benched in favor of guys they remember bringing donuts to practice. Would I like to see it? Sure. But if we're even thinking about benching Butler, we just have to trade him. The dude would FUME on the bench and create a toxic workspace. Make that even toxic-er. We'd kill his trade value. Does the dude look happy now? I agree that we shouldn't care if he's happy, but it would be a heck'uva lot easier to deal with him being unhappy if he were, say, all the way to Memphis.

But the locker room is terrible already. The on court chemistry is terrible already. Tuhr'ible, just tuhr'ible. Two of our three 'best' players seem to strongly dislike each other and basically can't play together. It wasn't a month ago that guys were feuding publicly in the media. Guy's don't have established roles because outside of Jamison and Haywood, the starting line hasn't been even remotely consistent. If two of your top three options don't know where they fit in, including your first option and point guard, it's a trickle down dynamic.

Despite the close losses, our scoring differential is equivalent historically with 25-30 win teams. Things that start this badly are not going to suddenly turn around emphatically and procure postseason confetti. This team is waaaayy too inconsistent to hedge any hope at all on a first round match up with any of Boston, Orlando, Cleveland or Atlanta.

So where are we going?

Our doom cometh. Guy's like Battier and Landry might bring some roses to the funeral and stick a tic-tac in our mouth as we're being fitted for the coffin, but the hole be dug as is.

Free agents and older veterans on big contracts demands a decision before February. We'll never be in a better position to rebuild than we are right now. I say forget the peripheral wrangling and blow this ugly mother up with an orbital bombardment of neutron bombs. Bring in picks and prospects attached to some bad contracts and we'll see how Flip does in the role of teacher. If he's amazingly sucky in that role and plays Stevenson over Young when we're trying to develop young talent, then we can print this thread onto a billboard outside Verizon. But he's been dealt a losing hand here thus far, damned if he do and damned if he d'ain't.

I hope that doesn't sound like a jerk post CCJ, because i really do enjoy your views and quips. But I just think on this one, you're putting too much emphasis on the theoretical elements of the rotation and not enough emphasis on the personality driven facets that underlie the team.

I have to say that along with docklinin and Ed Wood, you're a hell of a good writer, Hoopalotta.

You're also very insightful on all the stuff I'm not, too. Personalities and practical aren't my forte.

December 15 is a day that makes a lot more trades possible because of the offseason moves certain teams made having passed time moratorium.

Hoops, I think Flip and EG brought in Foye and Miller and they need to move Stevenson and Butler, even if for salary neutral deals, just to make the chemsitry work better. Flip likes DeShawn, but all of Stevenson's minutes come at their expense and he's not THAT good of a player to take those minutes. DeShawn is a bridge to the old order of the big three that worked under EJ. I know he's a decent bench player and he can be a part of a winning team, but this one's not it.

As to your point about things that start this bad don't end in confetti at the end of the season, I agree they're not winning much of nothing this season; however, I'm delusional enough to think if they can just make the playoffs as a fifth or sixth seed, they can definitely advance a round. Quantifiably, if they can win 46 to 44 games, they can make it to my confetti--advancing past the first round.

On top of that, resigning the right core guys is possible, especially if they end the season on a high note.

Hoops, my ideas for this team would be to trade Butler or Jamison for what seems like a bad trade at the time, but what could do wonders for this team. Battier played with Miller on a 50-win team. Foye and Lowry made a Final Four together. I've seen teams like one that Karl coached in Denver get red hot at the end of the season.

There are 60 games left. At 7-15, it's not inconceivable that the light bulb can come on and this team finishes 38-22. Forty-four wins and ending on a high note are my best wishes for this team at the moment.

I am merely playing the part of town crier right now because I don't think all is lost. Not yet.

First, make the playoffs. Then worry about advancing.

In the meantime, make trades that shape the team to what Flip can use (for better or worse).

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

PS to last post: Hoopalotta, you're right that they don't look capable of beating any of Orlando, Cleveland, or Atlanta in a series. Boston either.

Still, I want to see them try to get there this season.

[MJG]

Let the fans design the plays!

FYI tweeps: Insider is running an inbounds-play contest. Draw one up/submit/win, Wizards will run it in a game, I'll write about it all.

[dandridge 10]

CCJ, I agree that Grundfeld's going to have to move some guys yes, but if we don't bring back young players, I don't know where we're going with it.

Honestly, what's the point in 'achieving' 42-45 wins and then getting killed in the first round of the playoffs at the expense of our long term talent level?

Has Flip made mistakes? Sure, he has, yes. But honestly, the problems here are much greater than that. Flip's rotation issues are like a leaky handle on a toilet filled with turds. It ain't the big problem. This team is miserably at odds with itself. It seemed like a fair idea in theory, but the pieces don't fit.

If all these rotational tweaks that entail playing young cheap players over highly paid, high usage veterans needs to take place in the hopes of becoming a decent middle of the pack team in the woeful east, the problem is with the roster more so than with the coaching.

We're talking about $10 million dollar a year veterans taking a very public loss of face and being benched in favor of guys they remember bringing donuts to practice. Would I like to see it? Sure. But if we're even thinking about benching Butler, we just have to trade him. The dude would FUME on the bench and create a toxic workspace. Make that even toxic-er. We'd kill his trade value. Does the dude look happy now? I agree that we shouldn't care if he's happy, but it would be a heck'uva lot easier to deal with him being unhappy if he were, say, all the way to Memphis.

But the locker room is terrible already. The on court chemistry is terrible already. Tuhr'ible, just tuhr'ible. Two of our three 'best' players seem to strongly dislike each other and basically can't play together. It wasn't a month ago that guys were feuding publicly in the media. Guy's don't have established roles because outside of Jamison and Haywood, the starting line hasn't been even remotely consistent. If two of your top three options don't know where they fit in, including your first option and point guard, it's a trickle down dynamic.

Despite the close losses, our scoring differential is equivalent historically with 25-30 win teams. Things that start this badly are not going to suddenly turn around emphatically and procure postseason confetti. This team is waaaayy too inconsistent to hedge any hope at all on a first round match up with any of Boston, Orlando, Cleveland or Atlanta.

So where are we going?

Our doom cometh. Guy's like Battier and Landry might bring some roses to the funeral and stick a tic-tac in our mouth as we're being fitted for the coffin, but the hole be dug as is.

Free agents and older veterans on big contracts demands a decision before February. We'll never be in a better position to rebuild than we are right now. I say forget the peripheral wrangling and blow this ugly mother up with an orbital bombardment of neutron bombs. Bring in picks and prospects attached to some bad contracts and we'll see how Flip does in the role of teacher. If he's amazingly sucky in that role and plays Stevenson over Young when we're trying to develop young talent, then we can print this thread onto a billboard outside Verizon. But he's been dealt a losing hand here thus far, damned if he do and damned if he d'ain't.

I hope that doesn't sound like a jerk post CCJ, because i really do enjoy your views and quips. But I just think on this one, you're putting too much emphasis on the theoretical elements of the rotation and not enough emphasis on the personality driven facets that underlie the team.

Completely agree. There are much bigger problems to be fixed on this team than a simple rotation adjustment. The Wizards management needs to start from the ground up and build a new team, kind of how the Caps were rebuilt.

[Hoopalotta]

Hey Chocolate,

Glad to hear that my emphatic post was taken in the spirit it was written, which is with respect for you and your opinions. I sold my case a little hard though, so I was worried. But everyone here knows you're a great asset to the discourse here and I very consistently appreciate your takes on moral points in particular (like, for example, the one on society being judgmental of peoples mental makeups as related to Gil and then in the Ho's thread).

As to the team, you're more bullish than I on winning this year, but no one could find fault in that. I could see the point in a chemistry trade so long as we got a younger guy (that's why I'd way prefer a guy like Ariza over Battier in a Butler trade). As you know, I'd go all in on a rebuild though which would satisfy your demand for more PT for the young guys if not for the point of getting wins.

Part of me would accept your 'past the first round' confetti, especially if it was at the expense of Cleveland. To bump Cleveland in the first round, have Bron-Bron go to the Knicks and break the hearts of millions of Ohioians who would despair for decades of their missed chance would just be beautiful to me.

*Taking a break to drink some fresh bat blood from my Human skull decanter*
*Burp*
*back now*

But I guess I just see it all as being too risky when taking in all the considerations. If we do go waltzing down that road though, I'll make sure to root along with you.

[Hoopalotta]

Thanks much Dandridge,

That's the first smiley face 'party in here' I've ever registered!

[closg00]

Quote from Insider:

"Right now we're having a hard time playing without Antawn and Caron and Gilbert on the floor," Saunders said. "Too much fluctuation. We went to our bench and had too much fluctuation."

I don't want to hate on Flip like many others, but he's not making it easy with stuff like that.

I vent a lot. I do hate on folks, occassionally. However, I like to think I waffle a lot when the same folks turn it around and do well. I'll turn around and praise them.

Flip did well the 4 out of 5 games the Wizards won and he did so starting Young and having Nick play over 30 minutes in each of those games.

Fluctuation? How about Gil and the lack of execution to close out games? How about defense not played by Jamison at the close of games? How about forced drives and shot attempts by Butler, Jamison, and Arenas when the team needs a good shot?

Fluctuation? How about Stevenson starting again and Blatche getting less and less minutes?

Fluctuation? How about McGee throwing down dunks and exciting fans one season, getting 15 minutes a game and drawing praise from Chris Paul and comparisons to Dwight Howard one season; only to getting chewed out after 0.1 seconds at the end of one game and yet another DNP-CD?

Flip is the guy with the new system that has contributed to a whole lot of fluctuation.

Amen to that.

@Dat - I love your rotation-plan, it's a winner IMO.

[long suffrin' boulez fan]

Flip, Flop, Fail

No discernible rotation, no wins, no job when Uncle Ted takes over.

Nuff said

[LyricalRico]

Flip is the best coach this team has had in years. We all knew that bringing in a new coach would mean a transition year. He's absolutely the right man for the job and time is going to bear that out.

In Flip (and Ernie) we trust!

[closg00]

Rookie Jason Thompson played 36 minutes while McGee had another DNP. Come-on Flip, you need to work the kid in a little each game cause you WILL have to use him should we make the playoffs.
It sure looks like Flip is trying to get our old line-up together first before he tries anything else.

Edit: Even Thabeet played 8 minutes last night.

[hands11]

White Eddie is all I have seen of late.

I have no faith in anyone who (1) starts DS but (2) continues to do it when it isnt working.

I mean I thought I understood it for a game. I saw it as an attempt to get Gil back comfortable since he was off. Well, GA did have a decent game against SAC. If this is what it is all about then at least there is a reason for it.

But come on. If you want someone who isnt going to shoot, you may as well play DMAC. DS is simple terrible and I had seeing him tatted looser simple minded lame ass on the court.

I havent seen anything from Flip of late that I couldnt have gotten from Eddie.

[miller31time]

I'm sure putting DS on the bench would have made up for the 26-point loss. Clearly, this loss is on Flip.

[mohammed10]

Wanted to bump this thread because I also believe the right coaching would make some difference with this squad.

The fact that Flip has had success and is proven in this League does not mean that his philosophy is a winning formula for our current group of players. (I would also submit that Flip's success is attributable moreso to a super talented player than his coaching)

If Flip really had 'it', then he really should have won a championship in Detroit, or even in Minnesota.

This group of players is being given too much credit to think that they do what they want to do in spite of the coach.

No!!! This group of players has not seen the right coach yet. Flip has to go further than just pulling the starting five. Flip has to demand a style of play that fits his team now and use all of his players better.

As a head coach, you cannot reward bad play for veterans and sit young players for mistakes. It is a loosing philosophy.

A coach has to demand the play on the court that he expects to see and he must sit players whom do not give the effort that he expects.

To make a mistake and be benched for it when you know you are giving effort sends the wrong signal (see Nick Young).

To continually to play badly, but you always play also sends the wrong signal (see how long it took to bench MeShawn).

If we are winning, things would be different, but if we are losing and continue along the same course with no change, that is coaching. REPEAT!!! THAT IS COACHING.

And we can change the players (as many of my closet GM friend do on the trade thread) and I think all of our big's will walk if the coaching dosen't change. We can bring in new players all we want, but if they are not superstar players that can make a difference, then Flip's coaching to this point will not matter either.

[nate33]

Two coaches have already failed with this squad. Flip has had only 25 games to turn around 5 years of bad habits. I'm not even close to blaming Flip for anything at this point. I have a couple of minor quibbles with him (mostly about him playing Young to little) but other than that, I think Flip is doing a solid job with what he's got.

If Flip is to blame for anything, it's that he has brought in a system that doesn't really fit the skillset of his players. In particular, Caron Butler's skills are being wasted in Flip's system. But I won't judge Flip (or Caron) on that issue until there has been more adjustment time. If nothing else, I think Flip deserves to make at least one major trade to get the kind of personnel to fit his system.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I have major quibbles with Flip Saunders.

He's done a poor job. Period.

First, he panders to the veterans who do not defend well and who do take poor shots.

Second, he gives young guys the quick hook. Young has played much better than Stevenson. Check the Minnesota. McGee never plays. Check the losses, particularly against teams like Miami and Utah. Flip would rather consistently score under 90 and have few assists for the team than to wake up and smell the coffee that McGee is the best finisher on the team. Guys like Ryan Hollins and Corey Brewer BEAT THE HIGH-PAID VETERANS yesterday. Hollin's dunk could have been followed by McGee off the bench.

McGee and Blatche together? When's the last time we saw that? I know Haywood's playing well! Flip needs to see THE PROBLEM IS JAMISON AT PF. Give him minutes at SF or rest him more to get a bigger, more athletic team out there. CHECK THIS OUT: IF Jamison's going to shoot it all the time, WHY NOT MAKING HIM A SG? Glen Rice, Steve Smith -- they weren't that much smaller than AJ.... Flip needs to move Jamison from PF to get McGee and others on the court.

Third, his offense has bee the adjustment that's stumped players that at least used to be good chuckers.

Fourth, he's done a lot of talking. But only once has he benched his starters. He got the win that game.

I DO NOT BLAME FLIP FOR INHERITING PLAYERS WHO HAVE A SENSE OF ENTITLEMENT, for getting a bunch of guys who get their shots but don't have the same fervor on defense, for players with low basketball IQs, for getting A BUNCH OF SOFT PLAYERS, for getting guys that seem to be injured very, very frequently.

That said, Flip's record IMO should be about 14-14. Not 10-18.

The Minnesota loss was just disgusting to watch. Play Jamison, Butler, Arenas all 40 (or thereabouts) plus, and then watch as Minnesota grabs all the loose balls at the end. To have a game where the team gives a dispirited effort but not use all your bench ....

Flip IS DEFINITELY NOT OFF TO A GOOD START as far as I'm concerned.

The roster is on Grunfeld.

[LyricalRico]

Two coaches have already failed with this squad. Flip has had only 25 games to turn around 5 years of bad habits. I'm not even close to blaming Flip for anything at this point.