Washington @ Minnesota 3/6/2013 - 8:00

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

If Rubio was on our team all we would hear is CCJ saying let's trade Rubio and Rubio can't shoot. The grass isn't always greener.

Yep!

I wouldn't like him, either, if people were calling Ricky a superstar while the team's record with RR at PG was 26-56, 23-59, and 19-40.

I think Rubio is more reliable not to hurt a team in the end of games but Wall has elite athleticism that when Nene is playing well makes him very valuable. Wall doesn't play with poise but he's able to do things Rubio can't do as well.

My main point in comparing Wall and Rubio started off that EG could have had not just Rubio, but instead could have had Curry or Lawson and all those guys are players I personally would choose (at salary and long-term) over John Wall.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

So we've completely given up on the Kyrie Irving comparisons then?

I got blasted for saying before the Irving draft to trade Wall for the rights to Irving and a future pick.

I said the same thing about Brandon Knight and a pick for Wall, and even that isn't looking absurd now. I'm wrong a good bit but a lot of the times things work out to where I look like I might have a clue.

The thing about Wall is he went #1 and he WILL command a max salary, and not $11M. Assuming he will make less than $15M is a mistake. Wall's career numbers have been straight line the same and to keep assuming he is going to make the leap is flat wrong. The best thing the Wizards can do is probably to trade Wall in a sell-high, where they also move Nene. He is too injury-prone to sustain the play needed to justify his contract. Wall's PERCEIVED value is the most valuable trading chip Washington has.

The Wizards can choose to stick with him and commit a lot of money, while stocking the team with shooters and winners around Wall OR they can tear down yet again with the realization their big men won't stand up over the long haul.

I am fine with either plan, but i think the smarter one is to blow this up. IF they can renegotiate NOW with Wall for a very reasonable deal, that is not a bad idea, either.

[TheKingOfVa360]

If Rubio was on our team all we would hear is CCJ saying let's trade Rubio and Rubio can't shoot. The grass isn't always greener.

Yep!

I wouldn't like him, either, if people were calling Ricky a superstar while the team's record with RR at PG was 26-56, 23-59, and 19-40.

I think Rubio is more reliable not to hurt a team in the end of games but Wall has elite athleticism that when Nene is playing well makes him very valuable. Wall doesn't play with poise but he's able to do things Rubio can't do as well.

My main point in comparing Wall and Rubio started off that EG could have had not just Rubio, but instead could have had Curry or Lawson and all those guys are players I personally would choose (at salary and long-term) over John Wall.

I agree with you, no one should be calling Wall a superstar. He is far from a superstar but he is a consistent jump shot away from being an all-star. Does he turnover too much? Yes, but so do guys like Irving, Jrue, and Rubio. I'm just holding out hope that with a full injury free off season and time with Gary Payton that Wall can come back very improved. Next year is his make or break year to me. I'm trying my best to hold my judgement until then. But I understand why fans like you bash Wall. Teddy sold him as our savior and he is far from that. But I blame that more on Ted and EG than Wall himself. This is the first year he has had a decent cast around him and the Wizards need to learn how to develop players. The fact that guys like Ves and Kevin S aren't improving is a huge red flag for this organization. Can you even name a guy in the last 6 years that we have drafted, who improved each year?

[nate33]

So we've completely given up on the Kyrie Irving comparisons then?

I got blasted for saying before the Irving draft to trade Wall for the rights to Irving and a future pick.

I said the same thing about Brandon Knight and a pick for Wall, and even that isn't looking absurd now. I'm wrong a good bit but a lot of the times things work out to where I look like I might have a clue.

The thing about Wall is he went #1 and he WILL command a max salary, and not $11M. Assuming he will make less than $15M is a mistake. Wall's career numbers have been straight line the same and to keep assuming he is going to make the leap is flat wrong. The best thing the Wizards can do is probably to trade Wall in a sell-high, where they also move Nene. He is too injury-prone to sustain the play needed to justify his contract. Wall's PERCEIVED value is the most valuable trading chip Washington has.

The Wizards can choose to stick with him and commit a lot of money, while stocking the team with shooters and winners around Wall OR they can tear down yet again with the realization their big men won't stand up over the long haul.

I am fine with either plan, but i think the smarter one is to blow this up. IF they can renegotiate NOW with Wall for a very reasonable deal, that is not a bad idea, either.

I don't think Wall will command a maximum salary. I think he'll ask for one and that will be the condition for extending him early... which means he won't get extended. But when summer 2014 comes around and it's time for a new contract, he won't get a max deal.

That said, I do think he will be overpaid. But he'll be overpaid at $10-12M a year, rather than being overpaid for the max.

I would be actively shopping Wall this summer. I've given up hope that he'll be anything more than an average player who teases you with his athleticism but can never be counted on to produce consistently. Trade him for Kanter or for a top 5 pick and be done with him.

I think Trey Burke will be a better PG than Wall within 2 years.

[dobrojim]

have not gone through and read the entire thread but am curious if anyone
else noticed one thing I think I saw....on his 3s, Webster got fewer attempts
from the corner, and more attempts (and misses) from places other than the corner.
Would playing more 2, as opposed to 3, be part of the reason for that?
In any case, the previous trend was in full display last night, Webster is
deadly from the corner, not quite so good on other 3s.

[Narf]

If I can add my 2 cents....
I don't watch Wall enough for my opinion to be worth anything on the Wizards board, but I do watch Rubio plenty. And I just wanted to say that he is the primary ball handler and the reason we play Ridnour with him is not for extra ball handling, it's because Ridnour can shoot and we simply don't have anyone else at SG left outside of Shved. Roy, M. Lee, and Budinger are all injured.

With Rubio, you want someone who can catch-and-shoot and slash to the rim at SG. He doesn't need another ball handler. His only big fault is, obviously, he shoots like a young Jason Kidd.

Anyway, I like Wall plenty I think you guys just need a better supporting cast. I'd like to think your front office will keep the good young core you have and actually find pieces that fit. Not so different than Minnesota a year or 2 ago, we just had crazy injuries this year to end our season but our team actually looks good once healthy.

[Nivek]

With Rubio, you want someone who can catch-and-shoot and slash to the rim at SG. He doesn't need another ball handler. His only big fault is, obviously, he shoots like a young Jason Kidd.

He's not that good a shooter.

Kidd is interesting. Aside from his rookie season, he's actually been an effective and fairly prolific 3pt shooter throughout his career.

[go'stags]

Wall definitely has to play better, but its gotta be frustrating for him to play with two bigs whose range ends at the elbow. He had numerous drives thwarted by Okafor just standing at the elbow with his man right next to him. Not Okafor's fault, but I really would like to see how John Wall does with a quality stretch four to space the floor for him. In a game where he hit his first 5 jumpers, the game would have to open up-unless both bigs have limited range.

[jivelikenice]

CCJ, you keep patting yourself on the back for how you would have given up Wall for Irving and a 1st rd pick prior to the draft, but where's the basis to this hypothetical deal? Was Cleveland ever willing to trade #1 and give up a 1st? If you really believed in Irving over Wall wouldn't you have said to do the deal straight up.

And I think Irving is a very skilled player, but lets see them have some level of success before we annoint him the king of the NBA. I'm sure if he was a Wizard we'd already be saying "can him & Waiters co-exist"; "does the team play better w/o him" ; or just generally ripping his pathetic defense. What I see is an Arenas type. Not as explosive or strong, but an electric score first pg who will avg 5-6 assists or so and play bad D.

[AFM]

Let's focus on the good... John was popping those long 2s with confidence.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Irving is better than Wall. He has already been an all star. He is almost two years younger than Wall.

jivelikenice, I don't pat myself on the back for saying anything about Irving. I do gloat quite a bit for listening to people repeatedly say how good Wall is and how crazy I was for suggesting Wall trades for about 2 years now. I have watched Wall's hype come down but there are many who don't want to admit they were very wrong about Wall. At best, he's slightly above average. We can talk potential if you like, but after three seasons in the league he is slightly above average and not showing any signs of improvement. What I give myself credit for is not buying the hype, ever, on John Wall.

I don't really want to debate anything about Irving but he is better than John Wall.

[AFM]

He is way better than Wall in just about every way.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Despite everything bad I've said about Wall the number one thing the Wizards need to do IMO is get rid of Ernie Grunfeld, and get better talent on this roster.

They can proceed with Wall next season and hope he and Beal grow together as players. It would be nice just to have a decent team make the playoffs with Wall and Beal plus whatever talent Ted adds to the team.

[TheKingOfVa360]

CCJ, you keep patting yourself on the back for how you would have given up Wall for Irving and a 1st rd pick prior to the draft, but where's the basis to this hypothetical deal? Was Cleveland ever willing to trade #1 and give up a 1st? If you really believed in Irving over Wall wouldn't you have said to do the deal straight up.

And I think Irving is a very skilled player, but lets see them have some level of success before we annoint him the king of the NBA. I'm sure if he was a Wizard we'd already be saying "can him & Waiters co-exist"; "does the team play better w/o him" ; or just generally ripping his pathetic defense. What I see is an Arenas type. Not as explosive or strong, but an electric score first pg who will avg 5-6 assists or so and play bad D.

Exactly, Irving is a pitiful defender. And he hasn't lead the Cavs to any real success yet. If he was a Wizard he would get bashed by the fan base and media.

[DCZards]

It's getting harder to compare really any young PG to Irving. He's quickly become an elite PG. And I don't think Cleveland would have traded that pick for Wall or pretty much any other player not named Lebron or Durant. If you only saw 2-3 of the 8 or so games Irving played at Duke, you would have seen that he was a special talent. Although I'll admit that he's a MUCH better offensive player and shooter than I expected.

But, despite his well-known flaws, Wall is a much better passer and defender than Kyrie. So I say let's make the most of the hand we've been dealt and put an end to that (and probably other) comparisons.

[Narf]

Jason Kidd year 2: .381 FG%, .336 3-pt%, .468 TS%
Ricky Rubio year 2: .357 FG%, .340 3-pt%, .462 TS%

Kidd
Year 3: .498 TS%
Year 4: .502 TS%

Rubio since coming back from injury fully (aka, 18 games since 1/26/13):

71/182 FGS
39.01%

6/22 3ptFGs
27.27%

82/108 FTs
75.93%

4.7rpg (85 total rebounds)

9.1apg (164 total assists)

3.2spg (58 total steals)

12.8ppg (230total points)

.501TS%


Rubio is 22 in his 2nd year and Kidd was 22 in his 2nd year.
I stand by my statement, Rubio is shooting like a young Jason Kidd

[nate33]

Irving is better than Wall. He has already been an all star. He is almost two years younger than Wall.

jivelikenice, I don't pat myself on the back for saying anything about Irving. I do gloat quite a bit for listening to people repeatedly say how good Wall is and how crazy I was for suggesting Wall trades for about 2 years now. I have watched Wall's hype come down but there are many who don't want to admit they were very wrong about Wall. At best, he's slightly above average. We can talk potential if you like, but after three seasons in the league he is slightly above average and not showing any signs of improvement. What I give myself credit for is not buying the hype, ever, on John Wall.

I don't really want to debate anything about Irving but he is better than John Wall.

You were right, CCJ. And I was wrong. Wall just isn't that good of a player, and after 3 seasons with no discernible improvement, I no longer have any expectation that he will be that good. His utter lack of improvement has been demoralizing for me. He looks like he is exactly the same player he was in his rookie season. He's actually worse this year despite better teammates. (I'll give him the benefit of the doubt this season in that he is rusty from the long layoff.)

He leads the league by a country mile in turnovers per 36 minutes at 4.4. Only Rubio is even close at 4.0. The next worst player averages 3.7.

[closg00]

Irving is better than Wall. He has already been an all star. He is almost two years younger than Wall.

jivelikenice, I don't pat myself on the back for saying anything about Irving. I do gloat quite a bit for listening to people repeatedly say how good Wall is and how crazy I was for suggesting Wall trades for about 2 years now. I have watched Wall's hype come down but there are many who don't want to admit they were very wrong about Wall. At best, he's slightly above average. We can talk potential if you like, but after three seasons in the league he is slightly above average and not showing any signs of improvement. What I give myself credit for is not buying the hype, ever, on John Wall.

I don't really want to debate anything about Irving but he is better than John Wall.

You were right, CCJ. And I was wrong. Wall just isn't that good of a player, and after 3 seasons with no discernible improvement, I no longer have any expectation that he will be that good. His utter lack of improvement has been demoralizing for me. He looks like he is exactly the same player he was in his rookie season. He's actually worse this year despite better teammates. (I'll give him the benefit of the doubt this season in that he is rusty from the long layoff.)

He leads the league by a country mile in turnovers per 36 minutes at 4.4. Only Rubio is even close at 4.0. The next worst player averages 3.7.

CCJ was right and called it on draft-night so kudos to him. SVG and David Falk are breaking the silence by stating that the Emporer has no clothes. Not hating, just saying that JW looks average and not worthy of big $$. Don't think he'll get it either.

[tontoz]

Wall did make 5 jumpers in a row last night. I thought i would see pigs fly before i saw him do that in a game.

[pancakes3]

It's not a good thing when making 5 jumpers without missing is an astronomical feat. Making 5 assists without turning the ball over is another herculean task for JW that really shouldn't be.