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Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong

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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#201 » by Dat2U » Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:14 pm

fishercob wrote:
Nivek wrote:And my response to that, Kanyewest would be something like... I've acknowledged when Grunfeld has made good moves. Acquiring Miller was a fine move for the purpose of reaching the playoffs this season. Trading for Ariza and Okafor was okay for the purpose of getting the team back to mediocrity.

My objection to the Okafor/Ariza trade didn't have anything to do with the quality of the players. I thought both guys were at least decent. The problem was the opportunity cost -- giving up cap space and the opportunity to acquire younger players with more of a future (guys who would pair better with the guys they're hoping will be the long-term core). And, I didn't like the age of the bigs they traded for (Nenê and Okafor) because in general, 30+ year old athletes get hurt, get worse, and cost more. (A concern which came to fruition when Okafor got hurt, which led to the team spending next year's 1st round pick to replace him with yet another 30-year old big man on an expiring contract.)

I didn't like that the moves to acquire older players seemed like a cynical push to get the team back to "good enough" rather than trying to build a team that could be excellent.

And, I would thoroughly disagree that the 2011 draft had anything to do with changing the team's culture. They got two bad players who could barely get on the floor -- when they could have picked two good players whose play would have meant they didn't need to trade for older players to "change the culture."


I have never been fully comfortable with the charges of cynicism and I think that they, as well as our repeated use of the term "mediocrity" are, ironically enough, cynical.

There are two issues -- strategy and execution.

I think Leonsis set a strategy that you don't agree with and felt the Wiz had to be good as a means to get really good -- basically walking before they run. So that meant things like focusing on culture, overpaying veterans, etc. You can disagree with the strategy, but that doesn't make the strategy cynical in my view. I'm still ambivalent myself, to be honest. And I say this as someone that pays to go to the games.

The second issue is execution. Every individual move should be scrutinized. There have been spectacular failures (2011 draft, Maynor, Miller/Foye) and some successes (Kwame/Caron, the production of Ariza and Webster relative to their acquisition cost, maybe Gooden and Dre Miller). I think we all -- from closg00 to DCZards -- tend to focus on the moves that support our biases. However, when looking at the moves in the aggregate, it is hard to argue that Grunfeld hasn't executed on the first two phases of the strategy Ted laid out : #1 strip it down and get terrible, #2, rebuild to get decent.

The real question is where the Wizards go from here -- both on the court and off. As I have said, I think how the Wizards fare the rest of the way and in the postseason stands to have a fairly big impact on the future plays out. Only good things can come from the Wizards making an unexpected run of sorts in the playoffs. Everyone I have spoken with about Saturday night's game against Brooklyn has remarked about the amazing energy in the building. What will people say and think if the WIzards fans blow the roof off the building and help send the team back to Indiana tied at 2?

The Wizards aren't in the best situation this summer. But they are not in the worst, either. There may be opportunities to make a singular bold move that could propel the team to the third stage of the rebuild -- into a team that can make deep playoff runs. I've mentioned how I think Kevin Love may be an option. There may be others. But I truly believe that a whole range of possibilities exist for the WIzards going forward, including getting really, really good.

I have directed a lot of attention on disliking the job Ernie (and to a lesser extent Ted) has done. The truth is that as much as I might like to see Ernie replaced, I would get far less satisfaction out of him being canned than I would from Ernie staying on and the Wizards getting it right. I have said this a number of times, but the NBA is a little like poker. While Ernie has spent some time as the sucker, he can also be the guy who doesn't play his cards by the book and still gets lucky on the river. I just want the Wizards to be good, watchable and fun to root for. I don't really care how.


To me.... Ted & Ernie made a choice to go all in this season, hell or high water.

It's sorta like doing hard drugs. In the moment, it feels good maybe even great, but boy, that come down once the high wears off its going to be a bitch!

Right now, the season is a crowning success. The Wizards are in the mix for homecourt advantage, Gortat has played well. Ariza has played out of his mind and Wall has taken positive steps forward to be a well-rounded player. Great stuff indeed.

But the high wears off, er, the the bill comes due July 1st, especially considering 2 of our best 3 players are free agents looking for one big final payday.

At that stage, it's going to be all about what happens next.

For team that's supposed to be a building a young nucleus with 5 recent top 6 picks, we've only got John Wall from that group that's really helping this team win games. Beal is playing heavy minutes, but he's been more of a burden than a help and has even regressed a bit since last year. Otto Porter still hasn't broke the 250 minute mark in his career.

I'm enjoying the ride but it still feels hollow and I suspect were going to crash and burn in the relatively near future if were planning on keeping status quo.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#202 » by DCZards » Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:16 pm

Nivek wrote:
The team IS better this season. They are pretty fun to watch much of the time. I'm definitely happy they don't have to play in the West. :D But, man they've had to burn a BUNCH of assets to get even this good. And that bugs me.


Nivek, I'm not sure what you mean when you say the Zards had to "burn" assets. Burn suggests, at least to me, that they gave up assets with nothing to show for it. The way I see it those assets secured, at the mininum, two solid, experienced starters and a crafty, proven backup PG (Gortat, Ariza and Miller). You do have to give up something (assets) to get something.

Granted, neither Gortat nor Ariza may be with the Zards next season. But, if they aren't resigned, the Zards are left with an asset that many on this board think they need anyway--cap space.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#203 » by Illuminaire » Tue Mar 18, 2014 8:25 pm

Sure. And you can pay $20 dollars for a ham sandwich. Doesn't mean you used that asset wisely... it just means you used it.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#204 » by fishercob » Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:01 pm

Nivek wrote:Fair enough, fish. None of us knows what motivated their apparent change in strategy. It LOOKS cynical to me on two levels. The first, that from reading Leonsis' blog and listening to his public utterances, they may have decided they needed ticket sales to improve sooner rather than later, and they decided to make moves designed to get them in the playoffs sooner rather than later. Get "good enough" now, and worry about the future when the future comes.

The second way it looks cynical is when looking at the moves through the prism of Grunfeld trying to keep his job. He'll succeed in getting into the playoffs this season, but I think a fair-minded analysis of the moves it's taken to get them there would conclude they've paid a high price to get there.


The Gortat doesn't represent a change in strategy if the strategy is to make the playoffs and get the experience and exposure that comes with it. It seems very in line with this strategy. Same with the Miller trade.

I don't think Ernie has acted any differently than a GM with job security would have -- given the strategy to make the playoffs this year. Cynical moves would have been trading Porter or even Beal. Using those guys, we could have added a host of guys who would have helped today.

As for Grunfeld managing to "execute" on the first two phases of the plan...well, sorta. He "tore down" what was already a shambles. I don't think that took much skill. As for "rebuild to get decent" ... well, kinda. He's burned a lot of resources to get to the middle of the pack. And he's been fortunate to draw a historically weak Eastern Conference this year.


I don't disagree with anything you say, but again, he executed the strategy laid out for him. Maybe burning those resources will come back to haunt them immeasurably. Maybe not having a mid-late first in a shallow draft (the next Kevin Seraphin?) won't bite so hard.

But, let's go back to The Plan Leonsis articulated back when they "tore it down." Tasked with "building through the draft," Grunfeld went out and picked Vesely, Singleton and Mack. Oops. When previously tasked (by Abe Pollin) to "win now," Grunfeld traded the 5th pick for Mike Miller and Randy Foye.

And...league's third worst winning percentage during his tenure.

The team IS better this season. They are pretty fun to watch much of the time. I'm definitely happy they don't have to play in the West. :D But, man they've had to burn a BUNCH of assets to get even this good. And that bugs me
.

Yep, Grunfeld blew the 2011 draft. He blew the Miller/Foye deal too. He blew the Maynor signing. Who is to say what might have been? I think we sometimes assume the best in that scenario. It would have been great to have drafted Steph Curry. But maybe we'd have drafted Ricky Rubio. In either case, we wouldn't have Wall. Jan Vesely was a terrible pick and it would have been great to have netted Leonard (15) or Klay Thompson (11). But picks 7-10 and 12-14 are littered with so-so players (at best). Sure, I'd rather have Kemba Walker and the 2nd rounder we gave up than Andre Miller, but I don't know that the impact of having the latter will be all that great. And yeah, I'd rather have Faried than Chris Singleton -- that was a huge missed opportunity. That said, it's pretty rare you're getting a core piece at #22 in the draft.

Sometimes moves that look great don't turn out that way and vice versa. Derrick Rose gets hurt again, Marc Gasol turns into a star, etc. I'm not saying Ernie didn't blow 2011 or that it's even okay. I'm not saying I wouldn't replace him I had the choice. But here the Wizards are -- with their destiny seemingly in front of them.

So yes, they have burned assets. No doubt. But to use the poker analogy again, the guy with the biggest chip stack doesn't always win the tournament.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#205 » by Dat2U » Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:18 pm

DCZards wrote:
Nivek wrote:
The team IS better this season. They are pretty fun to watch much of the time. I'm definitely happy they don't have to play in the West. :D But, man they've had to burn a BUNCH of assets to get even this good. And that bugs me.


Nivek, I'm not sure what you mean when you say the Zards had to "burn" assets. Burn suggests, at least to me, that they gave up assets with nothing to show for it. The way I see it those assets secured, at the mininum, two solid, experienced starters and a crafty, proven backup PG (Gortat, Ariza and Miller). You do have to give up something (assets) to get something.

Granted, neither Gortat nor Ariza may be with the Zards next season. But, if they aren't resigned, the Zards are left with an asset that many on this board think they need anyway--cap space.


Assets they've burnt since 2009:

Code: Select all

Asset                        Utilization  Current Reward
2010 1st pick                draft        G John Wall
2012 3rd pick                draft        G Bradley Beal
2013 3rd pick                draft        F Otto Porter
C Javale McGee               trade        F/C Nene   
2011 6th pick                trade        G Andre Miller
2014 1st rounder             trade        FREE AGENT - C Marcin Gortat (-Okafor)
$23 mil expiring (Lewis)     trade        FREE AGENT - F Trevor Ariza (+Okafor)
2010 30th pick               trade        FREE AGENT - F Trevor Booker
2011 18th pick               draft        FREE AGENT - F Chris Singleton
$9 mil cap space             trade        FREE AGENT - C Kevin Seraphin (Hinrich)
2009 5th pick                trade        NOTHING
F/C Andray Blatche           amnesty      $18.5 million in dead salary


Additional assets acquired/used by Ernie

Code: Select all

G/F Martell Webster          free agency  signed for vet minimum (re-signed 4yrs) 
G/F Glen Rice                draft        2nd rd pick
F/C Drew Gooden              free agency  FREE AGENT - signed for vet minimum
F/C Al Harrington            free agency  FREE AGENT - signed for vet minimum
G Garrett Temple             free agency  FREE AGENT - signed for vet minimum
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#206 » by montestewart » Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:31 pm

Fishercob, DCZards, hands11, others make good points in favor of EG and/or the team's direction. Taken individually, in isolation, those points generally seem reasonable to me. But to me, they describe recurring circumstances and scenarios that could be used to justify EG being around forever. As has been pointed out, a lot, he's been here a long time. If you're a Knicks watcher like I am, you just didn't start watching him when he got here. If you have a buddy who's a longtime Bucks fan, like I do, you have someone to clarify "EG: The Lost Years" for you. Or ask Ruzious.

He's been at this a long time. To me, he is what he is. I don't really expect any more, and assume any slight uptick will be followed by a downward trend. Riding aging Ewing and a weak East to the 1999 finals was the pinnacle. My high hopes for Wall and Beal are severely tempered by my low expectations of EG.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#207 » by Illuminaire » Tue Mar 18, 2014 9:44 pm

Ernie is not the worst GM in the world.

But he has a decades-long track record showing that he is not a great one.... or even a good one....
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#208 » by payitforward » Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:45 am

DCZards wrote:It's always entertaining reading the contrasting views of Hands and PIF. Hands typically sees things through rose-colored glasses, with clear skies ahead for the Zards. While PIF's view of the future is much darker and cloudier, with doom and gloom lurking around the corner.

Zards, please go check the prediction thread for the Wizards record this season when you have a minute. You'll see that I predicted more wins than Hands did. I also predicted more wins than you did.

How does this square w/ your "doom and gloom" characterization of me?

I might also add this: whose prediction of the Wizards record this year looks more likely? Yours? Hands? Or mine? Think about it.

DCZards wrote:The truth is probably somewhere in between.

I think I can say with some confidence that the one place the truth is *not* is in that "somewhere in between" place.

DCZards wrote:PIF, ... I still think the Ariza/Okafor trade was a good one.... And ...I can live with the mid-first round pick that the Zards gave up for Gortat. ...I can't think of many recent free agent signees who have been as productive as Trevor Ariza.

And sometimes you end up spending that free agent money on a player who really isn't worth it. Just ask Toronto, which grossly overpaid Landry Fields, one of the players you thought the Zards should have pursued the offseason that they traded for Ariza and Okafor. Let's be thankful that EG didn't make that mistake.

1. I was wrong about Landry Fields. I've said it many times. I have a lot of flaws, if you like i have more flaws than anyone -- but one flaw I do not have is trying to deny or hide my mistakes.

Now tell me one other player evaluation I've gotten wrong, Zards. It would be pointless to list the many many such mistakes of Hands for example that just jump into my mind immediately. Or yours for that matter. But you are right; signing Fields would have been a mistake. Is he "grossly overpaid" as you suggest? No. He doesn't make enough for that.

Btw, we got less than 2000 minutes for the $14m we paid Okafor. He led us to 29 wins. We had to give away a #1 pick, because (predictably!) he was injured. That's "grossly overpaid", my friend. And you want me to be thankful we didn't sign Landry Fields for what 3 years at $17m?

2. Ariza has been a great player for us. Absolutely terrific. But (as I've said about a dozen times) a terrific player and a terrific trade for that player are two completely different things. That was a terrible trade. Same distinction about Gortat, a player I've really liked for many years and who I wanted us to pry away from Orlando before you even knew his name I'm sure. But the trade for Gortat was terrible. No matter how well he plays, he is still an unrestricted FA the day our season ends. And no matter how you'd like to reframe it, we still gave away a mid round 1 pick for that 1-season rental.

And why did we have to do it? Because we traded for an injury-prone Okafor. I.e. more evidence that the Okariza trade (not Ariza) was bad. Not good, bad.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#209 » by payitforward » Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:56 am

fishercob wrote:
payitforward wrote:
milellie111 wrote:Gooden/Miller/Harrington. Three players that have contributed massively to this teams latest success. What defines a good GM? Sticking to the plan even if it defies popular opinion.

Great to have you back, genius.

Are you not old enough to know better than to act like such a prick so often? You're a smart guy and your posts are sometimes informative. But maybe don't be such a meanie all the time.

As I said in the sentence right after the one you decided to quote -- how come we see this guy when we win two in a row but we never see him when we lose two in a row?

Oh, and how come he never answers that question? And how come he never bothers to support anything he says -- other than by saying that it's obvious Ted knows more than anyone because he has more money than anyone (and yes he did say that or something quite close to that).

Forums like this are full of sharp criticism -- that's what they're for. We speak to each other here in ways we would never do if we were meeting in the real world.

Of course, that doesn't mean there are no limits even here! But I really don't think calling this guy "genius" ironically exceeds them.

On the other hand, telling someone he's "acting like a prick" comes a little closer, doesn't it? Did you think to write "act impolitely so often" instead? Might have been more effective too. Still, "meanie" isn't so bad -- so I forgive you. What the Hell, while I'm at it I forgive the genius too.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#210 » by payitforward » Wed Mar 19, 2014 1:59 am

LyricalRico wrote:
fishercob wrote:
payitforward wrote:Great to have you back, genius.


Are you not old enough to know better than to act like such a prick so often? You're a smart guy and your posts are sometimes informative. But maybe don't be such a meanie all the time.


+1

I forgive you too, LR -- I'm in a forgiving mood this evening, what can I say? I'm such a nice guy... ouch! -- d#mn! I just dislocated my shoulder! How'd I do that?

My back was just starting to feel good being patted too.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#211 » by payitforward » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:04 am

milellie111 wrote:
payitforward wrote:
milellie111 wrote:Gooden/Miller/Harrington. Three players that have contributed massively to this teams latest success. What defines a good GM? Sticking to the plan even if it defies popular opinion.

Great to have you back, genius. But, how come we see you after 2 wins in a row, but we don't see you after 2 losses in a row?

Please explain.

Edit: Oh, and "What defines a good GM?" Success is what defines a good GM -- as it does a good anything. There are 30 teams in the NBA, milellie111, as I'm hoping you know. How many teams are having more success this year than the Wizards? The answer is 14. How many teams are having less success than the Wizards? The answer is 15.

So, you tell me -- how "good", or as you used to say "great", is Ernie. Right now, at his peak in many a year, he has gotten himself to... average.

Do I have that right? Or what have I missed? I know... you are grading on a curve, right? :)


How many owners would fire a GM that has their team 2 games out of 3rd place in their conference? How many owners would fire their GM who has a sold out energized crowd at Verizon Center ? How many owners would fire their GM in the middle of or after a playoff run by a young talented team still reaching it's potential?

Easy for outsiders to want change and just say "fire" a guy without looking at job performance from both ends of the spectrum.

As of now you are forbidden from addressing King Moi. Or, if you wish to address me, you must ask permission of my footman Leonsis. But, because I am kind and a gentleman, you may take a lollipop when you leave.

Thank you.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#212 » by payitforward » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:09 am

DCZards wrote:
TGW wrote:Hands--they are stuck. Whether you want to accept it or not is up to you, but they are STUCK. They have two choices this summer: either renounce their FAs, in which they'll have caproom but no one to sign to replace Ariza/Gortat, or resign their free agents and have no caproom, thus being stuck (if you also consider they have NO first round pick).

I mean, it's a nice "feel good" story but you're being just naive or plain ol dumb if you think this team as constructed is actually going to win anything significant in the postseason or in the future. They can't even beat the Raptors in a playoff series for christ sakes.

Talk about "subjective bunk": You don't know that the Zards can't beat the Raptors in a playoff series.

Just as a matter of interest, what odds would you need to bet $100 on the Wizards in that series? I mean thinking about real money and a real bet.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#213 » by payitforward » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:30 am

hands11 wrote:
TGW wrote:Hands--they are stuck. Whether you want to accept it or not is up to you, but they are STUCK. They have two choices this summer: either renounce their FAs, in which they'll have caproom but no one to sign to replace Ariza/Gortat, or resign their free agents and have no caproom, thus being stuck (if you also consider they have NO first round pick).

I mean, it's a nice "feel good" story but you're being just naive or plain ol dumb if you think this team as constructed is actually going to win anything significant in the postseason or in the future. They can't even beat the Raptors in a playoff series for christ sakes.


How about this. You live in your hell that you choose to live in and keep posting garbage about how anyone that doesn't view things as completely lost 100% of the time is wrong and when you are ready to exchanging in some intelligent debate, I will respond. As long as you take the approach you are, I won't reply moving forward.

You have zero respect for anyone that finds anything positive in this team. Hell, I vent sometimes. That's natural. Everyone here does sometimes. But being negative all the time is a personal problem. As is attacking people who are fans of the same team you are said fan of just because they understand things 'might" work out. And who are you to call Milli a troll ? How about looking up the word troll. Milli is a fan, not a troll. If anything, you are the one acting like a troll.

Why do you think anyone would respect what you post when you act the way you do ?

You know what, Hands? I like you. I mean you don't have even the faintest idea of what you are talking about 80% of the time, and if I bothered to fill a notebook with all the analyses and opinions you've put forth that are wrong, I'd need to make a lot of trips to Staples for more paper.

But, about that stuff... who cares, really? I mean, you're a fan. I'm a fan. Fishercob, who ripped me, is a fan. LyricalRico is a fan. Even Miliellii (sp?) is a fan. We are all Wizards fans.

TGW isn't living in a "hell." But if the only way you could get to heaven was by being right about the Wizards, amigo, that's where you'd be! I mean for sure!

Nah, I won't go on and list what's in that notebook I filled. I'm no "meanie." But I think you ought to start displaying some humility, ok? Otherwise, I'm going to point out that you predicted a great season for Seraphin, said that signing Maynor didn't lower your grade on last off-season, looked at Vesely as our next "franchise player," predicted that Chris Singleton had what it took to be a starting NBA 3 by 6 weeks into his rookie year....

Would it be ok if I stopped there -- I erased the next 25 equally inane remarks. Not to mention the cases where in one post you said one thing and in another -- sometimes the same day! -- you said the exact opposite.

As I said, who cares -- we write here for fun. Still... "humility", think about it. I mean, even I -- the least humble of all who post, the biggest jerk who ever had the nerve to criticize a genius like Ernie and a man like Ted whom the wind blew into a tree from which he concluded that he knew how to fly, even I, I say, was forced by Zards, backed into a corner from which I could not escape save by swimming in the tears of my own regret, even I had no option whatever but to admit it -- yes, I admit it! -- I was wrong about Landry Fields. Wrong! Can you imagine? Yet, it can't be denied, I must look it in the face and accept it. Landry Fields is a bust.

But, you, Hands -- you are *not* a bust. You just went over the top a little. And, tonight, because of the forgiving mood I'm in, I give you a pass on that. Don't worry. Don't feel bad. And as for all the praise you lavished on Jannero Pargo last year -- don't worry. No one even noticed.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#214 » by payitforward » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:41 am

Nivek wrote:
nate33 wrote:I want to chime in and point out that EG may not really deserve all that much credit for Drew Gooden either. The only reason we needed to add Gooden is because Nene and Seraphin got hurt and Vesely was traded to remedy another EG mistake. The only reason Gooden was the replacement we added was because he happened to live in the area, he was already being paid by Milwaukee, and he was just looking for a chance to get back into the league.


One point in Grunfeld (and the front office's) favor: they permitted Gooden to use their facilities. That was specifically Tommy Sheppard. That may have been something any team would have permitted if Gooden was in their area, but it did at least give the franchise an opportunity to see how hard Gooden was working, to get a read on his personality, dedication, etc. Letting Gooden use their facilities may be the minimum they could have done, but at least they did it.

Agreed -- Gooden has surely out-performed anything anyone would have expected him to do, but he was still a sound and sensible pick up. it's great that he's blown up. And it's great that we got lucky -- every team gets lucky once in a while.

Moreover, it's hard to imagine he won't be a Wizard next year too -- and cost us only the veteran minimum.

So, yeah, once in a while Ernie makes a good move. And, it's terrific to be playing meaningful basketball this late in the season. Hell, I'd be delighted if we won a playoff series!

But what's not visible is the damage we've done to our future by strapping ourselves cap-wise, making terrible picks, trading away future assets, etc. We'll see all that later, and when we do I hope all Ernie's supporters will be sustained by that great 2013-14 year when we made the playoffs in the weakest conference imaginable.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#215 » by DCZards » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:42 am

payitforward wrote:
Btw, we got less than 2000 minutes for the $14m we paid Okafor. He led us to 29 wins. We had to give away a #1 pick, because (predictably!) he was injured. That's "grossly overpaid", my friend. And you want me to be thankful we didn't sign Landry Fields for what 3 years at $17m?


I love what Okafor brought during his year as a Zard--the defensive presence and mindset and his calling Wall out for his selfish behavior.

And it's downright silly to use the Zards record last season as a knock on Okafor. Basketball is a team game and the Wizards team that season played almost half the season without its best player (Wall); played more than 20 games without its best big man (Nene); and started a 19 year old rookie at SG. The Durant-led Supersonics had 20 wins in KD's rookie season. Was it a mistake for Seattle to draft KD?
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#216 » by payitforward » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:50 am

DCZards wrote:
payitforward wrote:Btw, we got less than 2000 minutes for the $14m we paid Okafor. He led us to 29 wins. We had to give away a #1 pick, because (predictably!) he was injured. That's "grossly overpaid", my friend. And you want me to be thankful we didn't sign Landry Fields for what 3 years at $17m?


I love what Okafor brought during his year as a Zard--the defensive presence and mindset and his calling Wall out for his selfish behavior.

And it's downright silly to use the Zards record last season as a knock on Okafor. Basketball is a team game and the Wizards team that season played almost half the season without its best player (Wall); played more than 20 games without its best big man (Nene); and started a 19 year old rookie at SG. The Durant-led Supersonics had 20 wins in KD's rookie season. Was it a mistake for Seattle to draft KD?

You are entitled to your opinion, and because you didn't call me a "meanie" like someone I won't mention I forgive you for having it.

Good night all. And as to you milielliii -- no one can deny it; you set the forum on fire this time. And it was really fun too in a weird kind of way. Come back any time; it's fun reading the brain-dead BS nonsense you post! I hope you enjoyed your lollipop.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#217 » by TGW » Wed Mar 19, 2014 2:52 am

DCZards wrote:
payitforward wrote:
Btw, we got less than 2000 minutes for the $14m we paid Okafor. He led us to 29 wins. We had to give away a #1 pick, because (predictably!) he was injured. That's "grossly overpaid", my friend. And you want me to be thankful we didn't sign Landry Fields for what 3 years at $17m?


I love what Okafor brought during his year as a Zard--the defensive presence and mindset and his calling Wall out for his selfish behavior.

And it's downright silly to use the Zards record last season as a knock on Okafor. Basketball is a team game and the Wizards team that season played almost half the season without its best player (Wall); played more than 20 games without its best big man (Nene); and started a 19 year old rookie at SG. The Durant-led Supersonics had 20 wins in KD's rookie season. Was it a mistake for Seattle to draft KD?


Did Durant play with any players making 14 million, 13 million, and 7 million a year?

You can love Okafor's "defensive presence and mindset" all you want, but a player making 1/7th of Okafor's salary could bring that to the team. You pay a guy 14 million a year to be productive, healthy and put up numbers that translates to wins. The Hornets knew that wasn't going to be the case as Okafor got older and declined, and got rid of him because of it.

By the way, last season the Bulls played without their best player for the entire year, and he was the MVP of the league the season prior. The injury excuse is not a valid one.
Some random troll wrote:Not to sound negative, but this team is owned by an arrogant cheapskate, managed by a moron and coached by an idiot. Recipe for disaster.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#218 » by DCZards » Wed Mar 19, 2014 3:09 am

TGW wrote:By the way, last season the Bulls played without their best player for the entire year, and he was the MVP of the league the season prior. The injury excuse is not a valid one.


Yeah, but let's not act like the Bulls didn't have two all-stars--Noah and Deng--to pick up the slack when Rose was out. Talent matters.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#219 » by TGW » Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:01 am

DCZards wrote:
TGW wrote:By the way, last season the Bulls played without their best player for the entire year, and he was the MVP of the league the season prior. The injury excuse is not a valid one.


Yeah, but let's not act like the Bulls didn't have two all-stars--Noah and Deng--to pick up the slack when Rose was out. Talent matters.


This x 100...I absolutely agree. Too bad the Wizards didn't have the talent to make up for Wall's absence.
Some random troll wrote:Not to sound negative, but this team is owned by an arrogant cheapskate, managed by a moron and coached by an idiot. Recipe for disaster.
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Re: Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong 

Post#220 » by tontoz » Wed Mar 19, 2014 4:14 pm

TGW wrote:
DCZards wrote:
TGW wrote:By the way, last season the Bulls played without their best player for the entire year, and he was the MVP of the league the season prior. The injury excuse is not a valid one.


Yeah, but let's not act like the Bulls didn't have two all-stars--Noah and Deng--to pick up the slack when Rose was out. Talent matters.


This x 100...I absolutely agree. Too bad the Wizards didn't have the talent to make up for Wall's absence.



That lack of talent is exactly why you don't want to tie up $34 million in cap space for 3 non-star vets.
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