Political Roundtable Part XVIII

[cammac]

Quick question to the forum have any of you seen a benefit of the Tax Reform in your pay checks?
Any raises by your employers?
Any increases in your healthcare costs if so did tax reform offset that?

Just curious!

[gtn130]

You are either completely in my camp - or you are a racist

Why on earth should there be middle ground between racists and non-racists? It's a binary thing.

Why do you refuse to believe that there are racist people on this planet?

There are most certainly racists on the planet and in the US. But no, it isn't a binary thing. Some don't even know they are racist. They don't understand which policies we have that are racist - it is an educational and dialog thing - not a lockout labeling thing.

We HAVE made progress over time. I go back to basically the beginning of this chart - this isn't anecdotal.

How did this happen? Yelling at everyone that they are racist - nope, just opposite.

I don't think ignorant, apolitical but well-intentioned folks who have a few casual misconceptions about race dynamics or socioeconomic inequality should be shouted down as RACISTS.

I do think someone like Nate is explicitly racist and doesn't fit that description. So it really is a binary thing in this context.

We've made progress over time, but accepting interracial marriage is an insanely low bar to clear. I don't think we should at all be complacent with that type of 'progress' - it's actually kind of an embarrassment that that's the statistic you have to cite to make your argument.

[FAH1223]

Read on Twitter

[gtn130]

Quick question to the forum have any of you seen a benefit of the Tax Reform in your pay checks?
Any raises by your employers?
Any increases in your healthcare costs if so did tax reform offset that?

Just curious!

I gained $1.50 over the last week, which will cover my Costco membership

[dckingsfan]

Why on earth should there be middle ground between racists and non-racists? It's a binary thing.

Why do you refuse to believe that there are racist people on this planet?

There are most certainly racists on the planet and in the US. But no, it isn't a binary thing. Some don't even know they are racist. They don't understand which policies we have that are racist - it is an educational and dialog thing - not a lockout labeling thing.

We HAVE made progress over time. I go back to basically the beginning of this chart - this isn't anecdotal.

How did this happen? Yelling at everyone that they are racist - nope, just opposite.

I don't think ignorant, apolitical but well-intentioned folks who have a few casual misconceptions about race dynamics or socioeconomic inequality should be shouted down as RACISTS.

I do think someone like Nate is explicitly racist and doesn't fit that description. So it really is a binary thing in this context.

We've made progress over time, but accepting interracial marriage is an insanely low bar to clear. I don't think we should at all be complacent with that type of 'progress' - it's actually kind of an embarrassment that that's the statistic you have to cite to make your argument.

But gtn, if you started "back in the day" you wouldn't think it a low bar or an embarrassment - rather steady but slow progress.

We went from, I don't want a black on my block to its okay for my kids to marry a black. And we had a back President. "Back in the day" everyone was what you would now call an explicit racist (including cammac's wife). Now you have a vast majority trying NOT to be racist.

Yes, we still have a very long way to go. But let's keep the dialog going and make some progress - you will be surprised at what we can accomplish.

[gtn130]

But when did I say Nate wasn't a racist? "How does name calling help" /= "Nate isn't a racist."

Please explain why shouting "racist racist racist" accomplishes anything? I'm curious. What's the debate strategy underlying that technique?

Nate is a non-serious person who is legitimately racist, indulges in every conspiracy theory and spends his days reading right wing blogs about the #DeepState.

He isn't deserving of any credit or benefit of the doubt, and playing nice with him only validates his world views and blurs the lines for casual observers.

Racists aren't welcome in communities - it's why you don't see Klan rallies every Sunday at your local community center. If you want to argue with Nate and convince him he's wrong about stuff, by all means go right ahead - I do it all the time. But playing patty cake with him does nothing but make things worse.

The reason I ask is I'm pretty sure shouting "racist racist racist" is how Trump ended up being President. Like Einstein says, the height of insanity is to do the same thing over and over again and expect different results.

What we've learned from Trump is that a large majority of white people are low grade racists, the kind of unconscious racism that is difficult to get people to acknowledge in themselves. All that kind of racism rose to the surface when Obama got elected. So now instead of shouting "racist racist" why don't we have an honest discussion about it? Look at what MLK Jr did - he engaged his racist jailers and asked them "why aren't you marching with me?" Which is an excellent question! "Why are you choosing to turn towards hate when you could turn towards love?"

The 2016 election is an isolated event, and your narrative for why Trump won, like almost every other of the genre is wrong.

-A non-Hillary replacement level democrat wins the 2016 election
-Bernie wins
-If the Comey letter doesn't happen, Hillary wins
-If Wikileaks doesn't happen, Hillary wins

Hillary had a double digit lead over Trump in October 2016.

The calling racists 'racist' narrative is just as wrong as the economic anxiety / Hillbilly Elegy narrative. There were a lot of different factors for why Trump won, but it had way more to do with Hillary being a weak candidate with baggage (largely invented by Republicans) than it did with Trump.

[Zonkerbl]

He publicly acknowledged in 2013 that he works for the Kremlin.

Advising the Kremlin on economic issues isn't the same thing as being a spy with an intent to undermine the U.S. If the Russian government hired a U.S. citizen to advise them on, say, environmental matters, would we label that American a spy?

If said environmentalist went to Russia and bashed US policy on the environment. Yes...I think that would raise a few eyebrows. I can't believe people here are defending the civil rights of Carter freakin Page. Wow.

Well, and this is why the FBI pulled him aside in 2013 to let him know that the people he was talking to were from the Russian intelligence agencies. But he kept meeting with them, and THAT'S why the FISA application was granted.

[Zonkerbl]

Nothing in the Steele dossier has been proved false yet, btw.

[Zonkerbl]

Nate is a non-serious person who is legitimately racist, indulges in every conspiracy theory and spends his days reading right wing blogs about the #DeepState.

He isn't deserving of any credit or benefit of the doubt, and playing nice with him only validates his world views and blurs the lines for casual observers.

Racists aren't welcome in communities - it's why you don't see Klan rallies every Sunday at your local community center. If you want to argue with Nate and convince him he's wrong about stuff, by all means go right ahead - I do it all the time. But playing patty cake with him does nothing but make things worse.

The reason I ask is I'm pretty sure shouting "racist racist racist" is how Trump ended up being President. Like Einstein says, the height of insanity is to do the same thing over and over again and expect different results.

What we've learned from Trump is that a large majority of white people are low grade racists, the kind of unconscious racism that is difficult to get people to acknowledge in themselves. All that kind of racism rose to the surface when Obama got elected. So now instead of shouting "racist racist" why don't we have an honest discussion about it? Look at what MLK Jr did - he engaged his racist jailers and asked them "why aren't you marching with me?" Which is an excellent question! "Why are you choosing to turn towards hate when you could turn towards love?"

The 2016 election is an isolated event, and your narrative for why Trump won, like almost every other of the genre is wrong.

-A non-Hillary replacement level democrat wins the 2016 election
-Bernie wins
-If the Comey letter doesn't happen, Hillary wins
-If Wikileaks doesn't happen, Hillary wins

Hillary had a double digit lead over Trump in October 2016.

The calling racists 'racist' narrative is just as wrong as the economic anxiety / Hillbilly Elegy narrative. There were a lot of different factors for why Trump won, but it had way more to do with Hillary being a weak candidate with baggage (largely invented by Republicans) than it did with Trump.

Calling racists "racists" is why we lost the racist but otherwise usually Democrat states of Michigan, Wisconsin, and Pennsylvania. And maybe Ohio. IMHO.

But yes, absent the Comey letter, and absent wholehearted collusion by the Trump team with Russian propaganda agencies in cahoots with wikileaks, we might have gotten away with it anyway. But maybe we shouldn't.

[stilldropin20]

Nate is a non-serious person who is legitimately racist, indulges in every conspiracy theory and spends his days reading right wing blogs about the #DeepState.

He isn't deserving of any credit or benefit of the doubt, and playing nice with him only validates his world views and blurs the lines for casual observers.

Racists aren't welcome in communities - it's why you don't see Klan rallies every Sunday at your local community center. If you want to argue with Nate and convince him he's wrong about stuff, by all means go right ahead - I do it all the time. But playing patty cake with him does nothing but make things worse.

Nate is far and away the best poster in this thread. He brings the most content by far. the most interesting "take" and a different set of eyes with research to back it up. The only reason I joined this thread was because of Nate. Even though I much prefer to take the high road an debate on logic and reason I dont mind putting on the monkey suit and engaging the clowns so Nate can continue his good work work with reason, logic, and research.

So you also think black people are inherently more violent and less intelligent than whites?

no. I dont.

But in order to discuss demographic violence we must discuss intelligence and standard of living conditions.

I believe that there is all kinds of intelligence. Patience, to me, is even a type of intelligence. There is emotional intelligence. there is good old fashioned processing power. there is analytic intelligence. There is memory as a type intelligence. Pattern recognition as a type. Even a sense of reactionary timing is a type of intelligence to me. Understanding human emotions is a type of intelligence. And then there is the ability to tie it all together emotional, memory and analytic intelligence. be patient, be well timed, recognizing patterns, and knowing when and where and how to "successfully act" upon these things we "learn."

These things we "learn" guide our decision making process. Sometimes the smarter more informed, more intelligent population of people strikes quick (and violently). Sometime they think it out. Sometimes they are patient, use (mis)information behind the scenes while playing the long game. Violent behavior is not necessarily uninformed and impatient. Often it is. But not always. Usually a group of people that can NOT afford the time to be patient act violently because they dont have the equipment or assets (usually money and power) to play the patient and long game of misinformation.

the smart assumption is that all human beings are self serving. That translates into acquiring wealth. And once humans attain elite levels of wealth, pandora's box opens up for them. They get behind the looking glass and understand how the "wheels of justice" really work. Once you see how things work, you cling to your wealth because you understand just how badly the "game" is rigged against those who do not have wealth.

And once you understand how badly the game is rigged, you begin to gather and pass down the most important type of knowledge (and intelligence) that exists. generational knowledge. They understand how things work behind the looking glass. They are motivated to keep and attain more wealth so as to maintain their power and influence so they dont LOSE their wealth.

Tying it in, there are levels of understanding and knowledge and intelligence that the poorest of the poor people on the planet do not have the luxury of attaining. They just know they are getting phucked. And they are trying to scratch and claw for something. Anything. And violence as a means justifies the ends. And if you rob a population of education, understanding, indeed FOOD and WATER!! well you rob them of their ability to use reason, you rob them of their ability to be patient. So more violence results in these populations.

That doesn't make Nate's statistics fake or false. or even misleading. we just never get to talk about why because we attack the messenger (Nate) instead of attempting to understand why??

And its the "why" that matters! If you want to point fingers at "mean-old-whitey," go ahead. I think its inaccurate because this all goes way back to before a time where mean-old-whitey even existed. But in the "modern world," mean old whitey was the European Royals, combined with European Oligarchs, then European bankers. For the United states, we have been mostly influenced and controlled by European bankers because they "secretly" took control of Europe with the (german)British after napoleon was defeated at waterloo. The French and Brits mostly colonized Africa and the united states. Used free labor in both continents to enrich themselves to continue to fund their wars with each other over world control and dominance. In the "ancient world" middle eastern brown people owned and ruled slaves throughout Byzantium just the same as the Europeans did in more modern history. And in the really historic world, we all came from Africa. I'm quite certain that it was a more physical world then. and perhaps those that could not physically compete for food and water fled africa first. or maybe they were tired of competing and looked to acquiesce. or maybe they were more curious and in search of "more." We dont exactly know. But we do know that humans in general desperately want to feel like they are in control of their own destiny. And the lines are easily blurred between controlling your own destiny and controlling those around you. Because if you let it, your environment will easily control your destiny instead of you controlling it. Or so the thinking on these matters go. Once you have enough wealth or power to see how it all "works."

And that's the beauty of the internet. We can discuss this stuff. and learn. We can learn the generational knowledge that a rothschild and now even a Trump, Clinton, and Obama would have learned. That indeed even and especially a Putin would have learned. So we can learn from them. Not necessarily what they say, but what they do. They are the new comers. Unlike the Bush's. They are new to the party. Like reagan was new to the party. The established world order of weathy elites have their own set of plans. The trumps and Obamas either acquiesce to the world order or they dont. or secretly dont. You know by watching main stream media. Main stream media will tell you what the established world order wants. And main stream media will tell you if the new comer has acquiesced. And I argue to each of you. I ask each of you, [bwhat has the established world order done for us so far??? Over 120 million people killed in 2 massive world wars over the last 100 years alone. Africa is what it is. South America. The middle East. And I dont need to bring up wealth disparity. You guys think the establishment world order is doing a good job? It could be worse for sure. Absolutely worse. But I dont think they have been fair, nor just. And I dont think its possible either. because their goal is to hoard wealth to ensure they remain in power of these types of decisions(the direction of the world). And that's why I favor a very nationalistic approach at this time.

I stared out talking about types of intelligence. The wealthy elites have learned that all human beings have a price.even presidents and entire administration. and that goes for congress as well. as long as they have the money to pay that price they remain in control. its not rocket science folks.

[JWizmentality]

A little off topic but let me just say how disgraceful it is that conservatives, and people like nate and sd20 have made the FBI agent and his counterpart the sacrificial lambs. His only apparent crime being he was having an affair. He watched a political race and came to pretty logical conclusion. Trump was a moron, liar, con-man, and vile human being. Stop the presses breaking news. But what conservatives, nate, sd20 and other cowards like them will never bring up is that he bashed Hillary Clinton, and Bernie Sanders. Who was he a fan of...John Kasich.

But that would put a wrench in their narrative so they dismiss that and portray him as some liberal activist. Cowards all of you.

[popper]

Quick question to the forum have any of you seen a benefit of the Tax Reform in your pay checks?
Any raises by your employers?
Any increases in your healthcare costs if so did tax reform offset that?

Just curious!

My wife and I netted an extra $200 a month from tax reform and our health insurance went up $18 a month.

[JWizmentality]

Quick question to the forum have any of you seen a benefit of the Tax Reform in your pay checks?
Any raises by your employers?
Any increases in your healthcare costs if so did tax reform offset that?

Just curious!

About $40.

The trickle is real.

[stilldropin20]

Quick question to the forum have any of you seen a benefit of the Tax Reform in your pay checks?
Any raises by your employers?
Any increases in your healthcare costs if so did tax reform offset that?

Just curious!

About $40.

The trickle is real.

thats nearly $500 annually. and depending on your tax bracket and SALT you may get even more back when you actually file.

[stilldropin20]

Quick question to the forum have any of you seen a benefit of the Tax Reform in your pay checks?
Any raises by your employers?
Any increases in your healthcare costs if so did tax reform offset that?

Just curious!

My wife and I netted an extra $200 a month from tax reform and our health insurance went up $18 a month.

nearly $4200 annually.

My employees are netting about $100 each every 2 weeks.

[TGW]

Quick question to the forum have any of you seen a benefit of the Tax Reform in your pay checks?
Any raises by your employers?
Any increases in your healthcare costs if so did tax reform offset that?

Just curious!

About $40.

The trickle is real.

All the while, the koch brothers are getting back millions. What a joke.

[cammac]

Quick question to the forum have any of you seen a benefit of the Tax Reform in your pay checks?
Any raises by your employers?
Any increases in your healthcare costs if so did tax reform offset that?

Just curious!

My wife and I netted an extra $200 a month from tax reform and our health insurance went up $18 a month.

Did the deductions go up popper?

[nate33]

Quick question to the forum have any of you seen a benefit of the Tax Reform in your pay checks?
Any raises by your employers?
Any increases in your healthcare costs if so did tax reform offset that?

Just curious!

About $40.

The trickle is real.

thats nearly $500 annually. and depending on your tax bracket and SALT you may get even more back when you actually file.

The benefits to the average working Joe isn't in his lower tax bill. That's going to a small amount because the average working Joe doesn't pay much income tax in the first place. The benefits of the tax bill are the increases in wages, bonuses, and likelihood of employment.

They're calling for 5.3% GDP growth this quarter, the most since 2008. Unemployment is at all time lows. The labor market is extremely tight and employers are having to offer raises to retain employees.

http://money.cnn.com/2018/02/02/news/economy/jobs-report-wage-increases-raises/index.html?iid=hp-grid-dom

[popper]

Quick question to the forum have any of you seen a benefit of the Tax Reform in your pay checks?
Any raises by your employers?
Any increases in your healthcare costs if so did tax reform offset that?

Just curious!

My wife and I netted an extra $200 a month from tax reform and our health insurance went up $18 a month.

Did the deductions go up popper?

Yes but not sure how that will play out at the end of year tax filing. I haven’t analyzed it that closely yet.

[Zonkerbl]

My taxes went up, but I got a raise. I think I haven't gotten diddly in taxes. My insurance went up about $30/month