Wizards vs Pacers

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I was in favor of packaging him with McGee for a blockbuster, but too late for that. I'd be willing to move him for a lottery pick in this deep draft.

I am not without concerns on the Wall front but this seems to be a case of familiarity breeding contempt, for all his flaws Wall is well ahead of the curve for even a high draft pick and I wouldn't be at all optimistic about finding comparable value in another pick.

He isnt unmovable but at this point, you keep him another year and see how things go. Unless something golden falls in your lap. They have a team option after that. If you want to trade him, you target that time to do it and hope his stock maintains or goes up.

CCJ, not going to go back and dig it up but I posted the Kyrie idea as well early on and argued hard for him maturity over Wall. Again, we tend to see some things like that the same.

Either way, you bring in someone better then Mack as the back up. Mack is no threat. To bench Wall for him would borderlines insulting.

Touch think about dubbing Wall king on arrival is you make him into a prima donna that you have to walk gently around. Shawn Livingston is the kind of player you can add that wouldn't be to threatening but also adds skill that could burn a match under Walls ass.

But keep in mind, they only have him two more years before this qualifying offer is $9,697,901

Adding a known stud at PG now wouldn't be a terrible way to go either. Wall is an asset. The goal is to build a winner. With him or without him.

I'm fine if he works out. I'm just not sold that he will. A top pick, FA or trade and Nash wouldn't suck either. Sometimes you cash in to win.

What I would do is really simple. If CJ McCollum stays in this draft (I kinda doubt it), I draft him in round two. If not him, I would draft Scott Machado. Shelvin would have to really ball out in summer league and training camp or else he might be playing abroad or in the D-League next season.

I would also trade Jordan Crawford for a mid-first round pick if one were offered. Tyler Zeller, Damian Lillard, Will Barton, Arnett Moutrie, Terrence Ross--so many players I like might be available.

I wouldn't be against packaging Singleton or Vesely with Crawford, either. My gut says hold on to Jan and trade Chris Singleton. Chris doesn't move well laterally on defense against the top competition. Vesely can do a lot at his size. Neither of them is a world beater.

[jivelikenice]

Hmmmm...Wall had more wins than Arenas in their respective rookie seasons.
Arenas also averaged only 28 wins per season in his 1st 3. He played with solid players like Jamison, Richardson, & Murphy in GSW. His 1st season here he only had 25 wins. At that point we should have known better and thrown in the towel.

[jivelikenice]

CCJ,

I agree on trading Crawford. I don't think he can be a productive piece as we build and I think the stats he's putting up now are as empty as Dray's end of season stat runs. Dray would start off well in the first half of games and then when teams really hunkered down in the 2nd half he couldn't keep up the pace. The same has been happening with Crawford. He scores early & often before the opponent wakes up. Once they do and really strap in the 2nd half, Crawford struggles....\

People say he should be a 6th man. His shooting isn't consistent enough for that role. For every one game he sparks us, there will be 5 where we're competitive and he shoots us into a deficit when he comes in. He doesn't shoot like the well known 6th men around...

[veji1]

Hi guys, excuse me for chiming in. I can't pretend to be a Wizards fan, I am a french basketball fan so I just tend to follow the french players more specifically, although I should say I have the most interest in the Bulls.

Anyway just reading all the comments on Wall makes me think that all the trading talk is massive overreaction. Sure Wall is a disappointment. People saying he might be better than Rose, and so far it isn't working out that way. But he isn't a bust either. He might need more time to mature, he might never be quite on par with the Roses and Pauls and just a notch below. Would still end up a very good PG.

It looks to me that this team has been the epithomy of dysfuntionality for 2 years and just for the last 3 weeks or so since the trade can an identity start to emerge. Still to early to draw conclusions. From a neutral point of view I would thinkt that this teams needs to get into next season with a few additions and changes :
- A decent experienced 2nd PG
- A solid 2 ways 2/3
- decent spot up 3pt shooters from the 2 to 4 positions.

Add that to Wall, the pick and the inside combo of Nene/Seraphin, get the team to buy its defense first identity, move Crawford to the 6th man role and see where it goes.. Than if Wall is still lost and the team struggling mightily, you can panic.

But I honestly think this team could very realistically be a 35/40 wins team next year with just those adjustments. Again Wall might not turn out to be one of the 3 or 4 best PGs in the NBA. But he can sure be a solid 18/8 PG, with good defense if he gets his head to it. That would still make him one of the top 5 to 10PGs in the league. A disappointment for a first pick sure, but than you look at thehistory of first picks for the last 20 years and you get a small third of studs, a small third of solid players and a big third of relative or absolute busts. If he turns out being a solid to very good player it is in the grand scheme of things a good result.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Hi guys, excuse me for chiming in. I can't pretend to be a Wizards fan, I am a french basketball fan so I just tend to follow the french players more specifically, although I should say I have the most interest in the Bulls.

Anyway just reading all the comments on Wall makes me think that all the trading talk is massive overreaction. Sure Wall is a disappointment. People saying he might be better than Rose, and so far it isn't working out that way. But he isn't a bust either. He might need more time to mature, he might never be quite on par with the Roses and Pauls and just a notch below. Would still end up a very good PG.

It looks to me that this team has been the epithomy of dysfuntionality for 2 years and just for the last 3 weeks or so since the trade can an identity start to emerge. Still to early to draw conclusions. From a neutral point of view I would thinkt that this teams needs to get into next season with a few additions and changes :
- A decent experienced 2nd PG
- A solid 2 ways 2/3
- decent spot up 3pt shooters from the 2 to 4 positions.

Add that to Wall, the pick and the inside combo of Nene/Seraphin, get the team to buy its defense first identity, move Crawford to the 6th man role and see where it goes.. Than if Wall is still lost and the team struggling mightily, you can panic.

But I honestly think this team could very realistically be a 35/40 wins team next year with just those adjustments. Again Wall might not turn out to be one of the 3 or 4 best PGs in the NBA. But he can sure be a solid 18/8 PG, with good defense if he gets his head to it. That would still make him one of the top 5 to 10PGs in the league. A disappointment for a first pick sure, but than you look at thehistory of first picks for the last 20 years and you get a small third of studs, a small third of solid players and a big third of relative or absolute busts. If he turns out being a solid to very good player it is in the grand scheme of things a good result.

Great post, veji1!

Believe it or not, I think this team can win 35/40 games next season with Wall and some minor changes, also. Wall is already a solid player if he avoids the turnovers and hero ball IMO. I only propose trades I think that are ways to really improve this team. It might be overreaction on my part but I've seen Wall get beat many times by players like Darren Collison. Games where he doesn't compete well at either end of the court are not a rarity. That is when I wonder about him. That is also when I speculate about improving the Wizards by trading him. He can bring a whole lot of assets and I believe there are other solid players out there.

Still, your post makes a lot of sense, veji1. Please post here more often and balance my opinion as you have. If the Wizards make improvements as you suggest, and get Crawford to be a sixth man things would certainly be better and Wall would be in a better position to succeed.

[DallasShalDune]

The one which doesn't hold that win/loss record is an effective means of evaluating the play of a single player. This isn't being done "under Wall," Wall is a player on these teams. The reductionistic "just win baby" style evaluation of Wall is one of the reasons it's been suggested that you're trying to find evidence to fit a theory rather than the reverse, because it is a terrible way of judging an individual player.

No, Wall is not "a player". No one rolled out a red carpet for Trevor Booker or Chris Singleton. Wall is the captain, plays the most minutes by a monumental margin and handles the ball more than anyone else by a similarly monumental margin.

At no point did I suggest that Wall alone should be able to transform an entire roster into a playoff team, but he should be able to make them bette and win more than the current number of games.

Yes, PGs do make that kind of impact. The Twolves are 18-13 with Rubio in the starting lineup and 7-18 without. The Cavs are wining a significant amount more with Kyrie Irving than they won last year with the same roster. And YES a team that starts Alonzo Gee.

Stop making Wall out to be a victim. Yes the roster stinks as currently constructed but Wall is ALSO a problem.

Yeah, he is one of our problems, but you won't shut up about how he IS the problem. You talk about him like you have a personal beef with him, like you know him personally and he made fun of your kids.

Rubio is another bad example. He played years of pro ball overseas that Wall did not. Yes, it counts.

[dobrojim]

Our tank is strong

Go Hornets. A couple more wins and we'll be locked in.

[dobrojim]

Hibbert has no rebounds.

How is that possible? I figured the box score was wrong! Talk about poor rebounding for a big.

OTOH, Collison looks like an All-Star, according to the stats....

Collison totally dominated Wall.

I was also thinking last night about the probability of so many
playoff teams having PGs from UCLA. Collison, Westbrook, Holliday.
An interesting statistical anomaly I would say.

[dobrojim]

Wall has to attack to hoop stronger like Westbrook. Then he will get the calls. He attacks it with finese & tricks. He should get more calls than anyone because he's the fastest so it looks like he's taking off like a rocket but then he kinda goes soft when he gets there and does some stupid spin stuff. The refs arent going to bail him out

I agree. There was a play on the fast break when I thought even though it was
Hibbert that was back, he should have just launched and tried to dunk with 2 hands.
Instead it ended up being a TO.

[JonathanJoseph]

LOL at the Gilbert Arenas conspiracy theory coming back.

[montestewart]

LOL at the Gilbert Arenas conspiracy theory coming back.

I like Arenas too, and hope he comes back and finds a home and meaningful contribution somewhere, but "I also wouldn't be surprised to see Arenas averaging about 20 pts and 10 assists next year" fans the flames of that conspiracy theory a little. You must be getting a kick out of this.

[dobrojim]

one other thought on last night

the guy in the renewal suite that won the VIP upgrade talked
a little about the draft and specifically mentioned Barnes.
I was not shy about saying that I wasn't sure if I could stomach
a season like we've been through if the final prize was Harrison Barnes.
There was one other guy in the suite that liked Barnes but most
weren't crazy about him with one guy really liking TRob.
One of the guys that did like Barnes said he would take him
over MKG. McCollum was mentioned (not as our 1st pick) but I had
not remembered much about him. Just a few different fans opinions.

Maybe I should post this in the draft thread

[JonathanJoseph]

LOL at the Gilbert Arenas conspiracy theory coming back.

I like Arenas too, and hope he comes back and finds a home and meaningful contribution somewhere, but "I also wouldn't be surprised to see Arenas averaging about 20 pts and 10 assists next year" fans the flames of that conspiracy theory a little. You must be getting a kick out of this.

I'm going to hedge on the 20 and 10 given that his knee looks much worse than I expected and I need to see how that loosens up or holds up before I know how that will go next year. Needless to say, Arenas has been a key contributor to their last 2 wins and the Hibachi appears to be warming up.

That aside, any specific link between the two scenarios and players is still so far beyond the scope of reasonable or logical that it's hard to fathom that I'm still addressing it.

[JonathanJoseph]

Yeah, he is one of our problems, but you won't shut up about how he IS the problem. You talk about him like you have a personal beef with him, like you know him personally and he made fun of your kids.

Rubio is another bad example. He played years of pro ball overseas that Wall did not. Yes, it counts.

No, I'm just tired of the excuses and people talking about building a franchise around a player who isn't "that" guy because that strategy won't work.

[hands11]

Yeah, he is one of our problems, but you won't shut up about how he IS the problem. You talk about him like you have a personal beef with him, like you know him personally and he made fun of your kids.

Rubio is another bad example. He played years of pro ball overseas that Wall did not. Yes, it counts.

No, I'm just tired of the excuses and people talking about building a franchise around a player who isn't "that" guy because that strategy won't work.

You really don't need to explain yourself further. Nothing wrong with what you have been writing. People have blind Wall love like they had blind Gil love. Some still do. You are not going to get those people to consider your view. Just not going to happen. I suggest you just put them on ignore if you find them consistently unwilling to engage in a fair minded debate.

It totally fair to be objective about his play and personality or to probe those topics. I think you have walked that line.

[Dat2U]

LOL at the Gilbert Arenas conspiracy theory coming back.

And you really wonder why? You don't see how you hold one player to a certain standard that you don't for the other? You don't remember how you've whined and bitched about the way Arenas was treated. You don't remember calling Wall's best performances fools gold yet you find value in a 12 min 0ast 0-4 performance by a gimpy Arenas. You've consistently found value in Arenas' struggles the last two years (remember, he was always just turning the corner and about to re-establish himself, lol?) yet you've mercilessly have ripped Wall's game to shreds time and time again.

Your posts have created an obvious double standard. You can refuse to acknowledge that but unfortunately people do remember the crap you've posted. You may find comfort in a few that share some agreement with you but among others your just a pathetic troll. To many a pathetic troll that gets placed on ignore. You might as well be a Knick fan spouting nonsense because either I'm laughing at your ridiculous statements or ignoring the bulk of garbage you spew.

[hands11]

LOL at the Gilbert Arenas conspiracy theory coming back.

And you really wonder why? You don't see how you hold one player to a certain standard that you don't for the other? You don't remember how you've whined and bitched about the way Arenas was treated. You don't remember calling Wall's best performances fools gold yet you find value in a 12 min 0ast 0-4 performance by a gimpy Arenas. You've consistently found value in Arenas' struggles the last two years (remember, he was always just turning the corner and about to re-establish himself, lol?) yet you've mercilessly have ripped Wall's game to shreds time and time again.

Your posts have created an obvious double standard. You can refuse to acknowledge that but unfortunately people do remember the crap you've posted. You may find comfort in a few that share some agreement with you but among others your just a pathetic troll. To many a pathetic troll that gets placed on ignore. You might as well be a Knick fan spouting nonsense because either I'm laughing at your ridiculous statements or ignoring the bulk of garbage you spew.

How do you really feel DAT ?

[JonathanJoseph]

LOL at the Gilbert Arenas conspiracy theory coming back.

And you really wonder why? You don't see how you hold one player to a certain standard that you don't for the other? You don't remember how you've whined and bitched about the way Arenas was treated. You don't remember calling Wall's best performances fools gold yet you find value in a 12 min 0ast 0-4 performance by a gimpy Arenas. You've consistently found value in Arenas' struggles the last two years (remember, he was always just turning the corner and about to re-establish himself, lol?) yet you've mercilessly have ripped Wall's game to shreds time and time again.

Your posts have created an obvious double standard. You can refuse to acknowledge that but unfortunately people do remember the crap you've posted. You may find comfort in a few that share some agreement with you but among others your just a pathetic troll. To many a pathetic troll that gets placed on ignore. You might as well be a Knick fan spouting nonsense because either I'm laughing at your ridiculous statements or ignoring the bulk of garbage you spew.

Gasp! A pathetic troll!

You know what they say about ad hominem attacks being a sure sign of a lost debate. Well there you go.

If you're gonna throw out all those Internet-tough-guy attacks, at least don't have an embarassingly confused point. It's not a double standard, they are different opinions. Those aren't the same things.

Your logical fallacy is that you think I owe John Wall the same benefit of the doubt that give Arenas. But I don't. They are completely different human beings in two completely different situations who I have completely different opinions about.

In your own example you miss the point that even in short stints, the Grizzlies are saying Arenas, even on the gimpy knee, is making the plays that make the difference between winning and losing. You mention a game where Wall went off for 36, but the Wizards lost by 8 at home and were down double figures going into the 4th quarter. When has Wall made the difference between winning and losing? I think getting blown out at home isn't exactly the highlight you want to point to.

That sums up my position quite well, thanks.

It's not a double standard, it means I'm able to form different opinions about different players. Or maybe I'm just a Knicks fan spouting nonsense. Either way, settle down tough guy.

[DallasShalDune]

LOL at the Gilbert Arenas conspiracy theory coming back.

And you really wonder why? You don't see how you hold one player to a certain standard that you don't for the other? You don't remember how you've whined and bitched about the way Arenas was treated. You don't remember calling Wall's best performances fools gold yet you find value in a 12 min 0ast 0-4 performance by a gimpy Arenas. You've consistently found value in Arenas' struggles the last two years (remember, he was always just turning the corner and about to re-establish himself, lol?) yet you've mercilessly have ripped Wall's game to shreds time and time again.

Your posts have created an obvious double standard. You can refuse to acknowledge that but unfortunately people do remember the crap you've posted. You may find comfort in a few that share some agreement with you but among others your just a pathetic troll. To many a pathetic troll that gets placed on ignore. You might as well be a Knick fan spouting nonsense because either I'm laughing at your ridiculous statements or ignoring the bulk of garbage you spew.

Gasp! A pathetic troll!

You know what they say about ad hominem attacks being a sure sign of a lost debate. Well there you go.

If you're gonna throw out all those Internet-tough-guy attacks, at least don't have an embarassingly confused point. It's not a double standard, they are different opinions. Those aren't the same things.

Your logical fallacy is that you think I owe John Wall the same benefit of the doubt that give Arenas. But I don't. They are completely different human beings in two completely different situations who I have completely different opinions about.

In your own example you miss the point that even in short stints, the Grizzlies are saying Arenas, even on the gimpy knee, is making the plays that make the difference between winning and losing. You mention a game where Wall went off for 36, but the Wizards lost by 8 at home and were down double figures going into the 4th quarter. When has Wall made the difference between winning and losing? I think getting blown out at home isn't exactly the highlight you want to point to.

That sums up my position quite well, thanks.

It's not a double standard, it means I'm able to form different opinions about different players. Or maybe I'm just a Knicks fan spouting nonsense. Either way, settle down tough guy.

Gilbert is helping the Grizz, but he is a role player now. While I'd agree that he is doing good things for that team and he is producing (after a couple of terrible games) for a winner. If he was in John's role, we'd be worse off than we are now. We'd not only be terrible, but we'd have no future.

I think you're overstating Gil's ability to impact games.

[JonathanJoseph]

Gilbert is helping the Grizz, but he is a role player now. While I'd agree that he is doing good things for that team and he is producing (after a couple of terrible games) for a winner. If he was in John's role, we'd be worse off than we are now. We'd not only be terrible, but we'd have no future.

I think you're overstating Gil's ability to impact games.

But he's not in Wall's role nor is he being compared to that right now. All Arenas has been asked to do so far is to make plays to win games in Memphis and he is doing that for them. Quite frankly, I'm not so sure that the Wizards wouldn't have more wins today if Arenas was still the "franchise PG" for this poor team.

Of course, that's the point. If our franchise cornerstone was 30 years old and had a bum knee, that wouldn't be much of a strategy, would it?