Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 6

[Ruzious]

Rasual Butler -- "I'm a perennial; I bloom every Fall" -- will work out w/ the Wolves. I don't see any room for him on their roster. I'd rather have Butler than Thornton. A lot rather.

Kudo's to Butler for playing 13 years in the NBA, and he'll likely make it to 14. At 37, I'd pass, but there should be a team needing a jump shooter who'll give him at least a cup o coffee. Jarnell Stokes, otoh, would have been a solid get for the Wiz, imo.

[payitforward]

Rasual Butler -- "I'm a perennial; I bloom every Fall" -- will work out w/ the Wolves. I don't see any room for him on their roster. I'd rather have Butler than Thornton. A lot rather.

Kudo's to Butler for playing 13 years in the NBA, and he'll likely make it to 14. At 37, I'd pass, but there should be a team needing a jump shooter who'll give him at least a cup o coffee. Jarnell Stokes, otoh, would have been a solid get for the Wiz, imo.

Butler is older than Thornton, it's true. Then again, Thornton looks like he's heading towards 50! Half bald, thick mid-section. Whereas Butler is an excellent athlete with a 7'0" wingspan and a much higher max vertical.

Anyway, they are both fringe players. Thornton is 1 year at vet minimum, which is what Butler is most likely to get if he gets anything at all. In that role, I'd rather have Butler. Of course, I'm being influenced by his all star first 1/3 of his season with us -- goes w/o saying.

I agree about Stokes. And, man, the list is long of PFs and Cs who would have been way better than our moves. For the price of Jason Smith and Andrew Nicholson, we could have had either Cole Aldrich or Boban Marjanovich, plus DeWayne Dedmon and Quincy Acy! Start to think about what Mahinmi's $16m/year could have brought in, and...

[Ruzious]

Rasual Butler -- "I'm a perennial; I bloom every Fall" -- will work out w/ the Wolves. I don't see any room for him on their roster. I'd rather have Butler than Thornton. A lot rather.

Kudo's to Butler for playing 13 years in the NBA, and he'll likely make it to 14. At 37, I'd pass, but there should be a team needing a jump shooter who'll give him at least a cup o coffee. Jarnell Stokes, otoh, would have been a solid get for the Wiz, imo.

Butler is older than Thornton, it's true. Then again, Thornton looks like he's heading towards 50! Half bald, thick mid-section. Whereas Butler is an excellent athlete with a 7'0" wingspan and a much higher max vertical.

Anyway, they are both fringe players. Thornton is 1 year at vet minimum, which is what Butler is most likely to get if he gets anything at all. In that role, I'd rather have Butler. Of course, I'm being influenced by his all star first 1/3 of his season with us -- goes w/o saying.

I agree about Stokes. And, man, the list is long of PFs and Cs who would have been way better than our moves. For the price of Jason Smith and Andrew Nicholson, we could have had either Cole Aldrich or Boban Marjanovich, plus DeWayne Dedmon and Quincy Acy! Start to think about what Mahinmi's $16m/year could have brought in, and...

Agreed on Dedmon and Marjanovich. It wouldn't surprise me if Demdon is better than Mahinmi in a year or 2. And if Marjanovich can stay healthy at his size, I'd rather have him than Mahinmi.

[payitforward]

Yeah... a couple of directions to take this board-wise would be:

1. Who had the best off-season? Leaving aside both the draft & teams that signed a superstar, or even a single big-name star, who really helped themselves with their FA signings and trades? & by who they decided to let go as well.

2. We took on $34.7m in this-year salaries to acquire 6 guys: Mahinmi, Nicholson, Smith, Satoransky, Thornton & Burke. The 1st 5 were FAs, Burke was acquired for a future R2 pick. Leaving aside superstars, big-name guys who chose from many offers, & guys who didn't leave their teams -- what FAs would you have acquired for that much money (or less). Trades are speculative, so stick to FAs. Also, leave out the Beal decision.

The first question fits well in this thread. The other would fit in the off-season thread --- where similar - but not identical - subjects have been discussed of course.

[payitforward]

Actually, it's unrealistic to leave out big-name/superstar signings, isn't it? So...

Leaving aside the draft -- who had the best off-season in free-agency & trades? Including who they acquired - but also who they decided to let go.

[dckingsfan]

Agreed PIF - that is why I don't get some of the pundits giving us a passing grade. Sigh.

[Dat2U]

Yeah... a couple of directions to take this board-wise would be:

1. Who had the best off-season? Leaving aside both the draft & teams that signed a superstar, or even a single big-name star, who really helped themselves with their FA signings and trades? & by who they decided to let go as well.

2. We took on $34.7m in this-year salaries to acquire 6 guys: Mahinmi, Nicholson, Smith, Satoransky, Thornton & Burke. The 1st 5 were FAs, Burke was acquired for a future R2 pick. Leaving aside superstars, big-name guys who chose from many offers, & guys who didn't leave their teams -- what FAs would you have acquired for that much money (or less). Trades are speculative, so stick to FAs. Also, leave out the Beal decision.

The first question fits well in this thread. The other would fit in the off-season thread --- where similar - but not identical - subjects have been discussed of course.

Admittedly this is based on hindsight although outside of the J.R. Smith signing I had suggested many of these moves prior to the draft.

I would have S&T Beal for Noel & Covington. I'm pretty sure Philly would have bit. Looking at it now, I think Beal would have been happy being the man and getting as many shots as he wanted on a miserable team.

I would have also swapped Gortat for Amir Johnson & the 23rd & 31st picks (Davis & Ulis)

J.R. Smith @ 15 mil on a one year deal. Jared Sullinger @ 10 mil on a one year deal. Satoransky & Seth Curry @ 3 mil each for 3 years. Christian Wood @ 2 mil for 3 years. Marcus Thornton @ the vet minimum for one year.

Code: Select all

C Nerlens Noel    Amir Johnson     Deyonta Davis
F Jared Sullinger Markieff Morris  Christian Wood
F Otto Porter Jr  Robert Covington Kelly Oubre Jr
G J.R. Smith      Tomas Satoransky Marcus Thornton
G John Wall       Seth Curry       Tyler Ulis

Even when you consider the cap holds for Noel & Porter the Wizards should have north of $30 mil in cap room for 2017.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

That would be so much better, Dat. Quality youth, balance, and complementary skills in the front court. Sullinger would mesh well with Porter and Noel.



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[payitforward]

I'd love to hear what some others think -- who had the best off-season? Not necessarily one team, but overall who did well by themselves?

[doclinkin]

I'd love to hear what some others think -- who had the best off-season? Not necessarily one team, but overall who did well by themselves?

Aside from the Warriors? Swapping Harrison Barnes for The Slim Reaper is a win. Like win the whole thing.Chemistry questions between Klay and Durantula are overblown. Stef may lead the league in assists. Bogut to Zaza loses a little defensively, but offensively he's an upgrade. KD gets his ring, then comes home to us .


Otherwise?

Boston. May not be becoming a powerhouse, but they will be very good for a long time. Smart, tough, defensively active, rebounders at both ends of the court and at all positions. Deep deep deep. They need outside shooting but have everything else, including a playmaking pivot in Horford who can be the hub of the wheel for small ball sets.

[payitforward]

What about Detroit? They let a bunch of guys go who in all played @4500 minutes (23% of all their minutes, hence significant) but the only one who'd played meaningful minutes productively was Tolliver.

They brought in Ish Smith, Boban Marjanovic & John Leuer as FAs. They drafted Ellenson and Gbinije.

Not quite like signing Kevin Durant -- or even Horford -- but as young as they are you'd expect them to improve this year even without any changes. And their changes, to my eye, are in the right direction. Barring injury, their wins look to go up some this year.

Agreement? Disagreement?

[Ruzious]

What about Detroit? They let a bunch of guys go who in all played @4500 minutes (23% of all their minutes, hence significant) but the only one who'd played meaningful minutes productively was Tolliver.

They brought in Ish Smith, Boban Marjanovic & John Leuer as FAs. They drafted Ellenson and Gbinije.

Not quite like signing Kevin Durant -- or even Horford -- but as young as they are you'd expect them to improve this year even without any changes. And their changes, to my eye, are in the right direction. Barring injury, their wins look to go up some this year.

Agreement? Disagreement?

Detroit was solid. Leuer was underrated, but they overrated him by giving him a 4/41. I thought Ellenson was a very good value pick. Boban can play - I thought he was their smartest signing.

I still say Indiana had a good offseason, but we had that discussion, and I seem to be in a distinct minority here - and here is where it's at.

[doclinkin]

What about Detroit? They let a bunch of guys go who in all played @4500 minutes (23% of all their minutes, hence significant) but the only one who'd played meaningful minutes productively was Tolliver.

They brought in Ish Smith, Boban Marjanovic & John Leuer as FAs. They drafted Ellenson and Gbinije.

Not quite like signing Kevin Durant -- or even Horford -- but as young as they are you'd expect them to improve this year even without any changes. And their changes, to my eye, are in the right direction. Barring injury, their wins look to go up some this year.

Agreement? Disagreement?

Detroit was solid. Leuer was underrated, but they overrated him by giving him a 4/41. I thought Ellenson was a very good value pick. Boban can play - I thought he was their smartest signing.

I still say Indiana had a good offseason, but we had that discussion, and I seem to be in a distinct minority here - and here is where it's at.

I'm curious about Indy. I think they will be good. Fun to watch, trying to outscore you instead of grind on defense then beg PG to bail them out.

And Chicago too, another squad that's a bit of a chemistry experiment, they have a chance to mesh and get hot. I like Denzel Valentine and have a feeling he will play a ton by the end of the year.

I like Pau to San Antonio. Adding David Lee, Dewayne Dedmon, and Euro gunner Davis Bertans are all upgrades. Yeah they lose big Fundamental. But keep upgrading their bench depth.

[payitforward]

...I still say Indiana had a good offseason, but we had that discussion, and I seem to be in a distinct minority here - and here is where it's at.

I'm curious about Indy. I think they will be good. Fun to watch, trying to outscore you instead of grind on defense then beg PG to bail them out.

And Chicago too, another squad that's a bit of a chemistry experiment, they have a chance to mesh and get hot. I like Denzel Valentine and have a feeling he will play a ton by the end of the year.

I like Pau to San Antonio. Adding David Lee, Dewayne Dedmon, and Euro gunner Davis Bertans are all upgrades. Yeah they lose big Fundamental. But keep upgrading their bench depth.

Can't see it about Indy -- they look to have gotten worse everywhere they made a change. Hill is flat out a better player than Teague. Ditto Mahinmi vs. the shadow of Jefferson. Don't see much left in Thaddeus Young either -- whereas Solomon Hill (no star obviously) is a younger player and on the rise. Seraphin vs. Jordan Hill? No. Aaron Brooks? Nah.

But, I agree about Chicago -- Robin Lopez has become quite a good player, while Pau has undergone the inevitable productivity slide. Wade is a chemistry question mark I suppose, and he's another guy on the productivity slide. Still, I wouldn't be surprised to see the Bulls flirt w/ 50 wins.

The Spurs will certainly still be good, though Dedmon is no Boban (I just like the way that phrase sounds). Lee was a good pick up -- kudos to Rico who called it on Lee last year, btw. I couldn't see it, and I was wrong. I'm sure Pau will be productive as well. I liked Bertans in the 2011 draft; he's still only 23. Amazing how the Spurs spot these guys.

[payitforward]

Then there's Charlotte:

Out are Courtney Lee, Al Jefferson, Jeremy Lin, P.J. Hairston, Hansbrough, Troy Daniels, and Jorge Gutierrez.

In are Sessions, Hibbert, Belinelli & Christian Wood.

I think Sessions should be at least as good a back up point guard as Lin, maybe better. Courtney Lee played well for them, his minutes can easily go to Lamb who will back up the 2 (Batum) and 3 (M.K-G.), with Buddy Hield available as well depending on how quickly he develops*, and Belinelli as veteran insurance.

At the 4 they're unchanged really -- Marvin Williams backed up by Kaminsky, who didn't have all that good a rookie year despite playing 1700 minutes. If he starts to take hold that will really help.

Jefferson only played 47 games & 1100 minutes last year, & he didn't play at his usual career level; their record didn't reflect him all that much. My guess is they start Zeller - who was quite good last year in almost 1800 minutes - with Hibbert, Hawes, and maybe even undrafted rookie Mike Tobey as backups.

I'm not sure why they should be less good this year than last, but maybe somebody sees something I'm missing?

* edit: no -- Hield went to the Pelicans....

[nuposse04]

What about Detroit? They let a bunch of guys go who in all played @4500 minutes (23% of all their minutes, hence significant) but the only one who'd played meaningful minutes productively was Tolliver.

They brought in Ish Smith, Boban Marjanovic & John Leuer as FAs. They drafted Ellenson and Gbinije.

Not quite like signing Kevin Durant -- or even Horford -- but as young as they are you'd expect them to improve this year even without any changes. And their changes, to my eye, are in the right direction. Barring injury, their wins look to go up some this year.

Agreement? Disagreement?

Detroit was solid. Leuer was underrated, but they overrated him by giving him a 4/41. I thought Ellenson was a very good value pick. Boban can play - I thought he was their smartest signing.

I still say Indiana had a good offseason, but we had that discussion, and I seem to be in a distinct minority here - and here is where it's at.

Of EC teams...

Detroit has very good front court depth and the addition of Jon should be an upgrade.. albeit expensively. Interesting to see if Stanley Johnson makes any credible improvements (he was pretty bad last year, so you would hope so for his sake). He is a physical specimen tho.

Indy might be able to outscore a lot of teams but their defense will REALLY depend on how much strides Myles makes IMO... but he did look good at times last season.

Boston definitely improved as did ummm.... I guess CHA should with MKG back in the fold and expected improvements from Frank. Will be interesting to see if Batum can justify that contract he got.. Kemba did flourish with not having to handle as much of the load last season i believe. Lin was a good defensive PG last season... sessions is still a turd on defense.

I think ORL could improve... but unless Ibaka affords them a lot of 3pt spacing, I still don't see how that team scores easily. They need Payton to make some strides. Hopefully he can.

Bulls... being that I moved to chicago few months ago maybe I should be more kind in my assessment... but so long as teams are aware of cutters... I'm not sure how this team will not be a brick house. Neither Rondo nor Wade are the athletes they were. I think if they were able to utilize Wade in a 6th man role then maybe there would be a lot more fluidity and roster balance. I wanted Bobby Portis last season so I selfishly want him to have a breakout season, hah. I think 45-47 wins is their ceiling. But given their spacing issues and lack of plus defenders throughout most of the roster I wouldn't be surprised if they had a repeat of last season.

[Ruzious]

I don't think spacing is going to be a significant problem for the Bulls, because they have guys who can shoot all through their roster - even if Wade and Rondo aren't 3 point marksmen. I'd call them a 45-50 win team in the still bad Eastern Con.

[nuposse04]

I don't think spacing is going to be a significant problem for the Bulls, because they have guys who can shoot all through their roster - even if Wade and Rondo aren't 3 point marksmen. I'd call them a 45-50 win team in the still bad Eastern Con.

The amusing part it is their forwards who could help them with that. If Nikola and Portis have improved their shots in the offseason it will pay huge dividends. Also, I think McDermott made some strides last season right? Him and Snell... I also am skeptical if defenders will need to help off their man regularly against Rondo and Wade. They aren't in their physical primes anymore.

[Ruzious]

I don't think spacing is going to be a significant problem for the Bulls, because they have guys who can shoot all through their roster - even if Wade and Rondo aren't 3 point marksmen. I'd call them a 45-50 win team in the still bad Eastern Con.

The amusing part it is their forwards who could help them with that. If Nikola and Portis have improved their shots in the offseason it will pay huge dividends. Also, I think McDermott made some strides last season right? Him and Snell... I also am skeptical if defenders will need to help off their man regularly against Rondo and Wade. They aren't in their physical primes anymore.

Yeah, pace will be important to them - most of their team is on the slow side - so they'll need to keep other teams from running. Miami vs Indiana will be a battle of pace.

[dckingsfan]

Then there's Charlotte:

....I'm not sure why they should be less good this year than last, but maybe somebody sees something I'm missing?

I think you are right. And it starts with Walker. I see no reason why he is going to regress and he is tricky good at closing out games.

I think we are going to see Belinelli/Batum starting at the wings with MKG coming off the bench. That is a pretty solid wing combination - look for Belinelli's 3pt shot to come back.

The FC is deep although not spectacular - and that is all you need in the east. I think you are right, they are a 46-48 win team.