Political Roundtable Part XVIII

[Zonkerbl]

I mean, congratulations on getting our idiotic corporate income tax rate back to normal but dayum. Way to screw the little guy.

[cammac]

About $40.

The trickle is real.

thats nearly $500 annually. and depending on your tax bracket and SALT you may get even more back when you actually file.

The benefits to the average working Joe isn't in his lower tax bill. That's going to a small amount because the average working Joe doesn't pay much income tax in the first place. The benefits of the tax bill are the increases in wages, bonuses, and likelihood of employment.

They're calling for 5.3% GDP growth this quarter, the most since 2008. Unemployment is at all time lows. The labor market is extremely tight and employers are having to offer raises to retain employees.

http://money.cnn.com/2018/02/02/news/economy/jobs-report-wage-increases-raises/index.html?iid=hp-grid-dom

Yes but basing a year on the anticipated growth for one quarter is foolish. The Anticipated growth for the 4th quarter of 2017 was over 3% and came in at 2.6%. Last year Canada had especially strong growth in GDP with 2 quarters over 4% and still is expected to be in the 3% range for the year. The 1st quarter is always the most non reflective of all the quarters. Look a GDP growth in the mid 2% or higher is very good.

[Pointgod]

He really is...

You're going to bat for a racist who spreads conspiracy theories

I don't agree with that, I think in the past Nate has come here bringing the best arguments that the conservative blogosphere has to support their agenda, which I find very educational. It's actually very easy to find evidence to support a racist mindset and you have to think very carefully to see the contradictions and statistical misrepresentations in the arguments Nate brings to the table.

That's the point MLK is making in his drum major speech. It's easier to be racist, to base your personal feelings of success on your whiteness, than it is to define success by works of lovingkindness.

It's disappointing, therefore, to see Nate spew forth a list of outright lies that are so easily disproven that it brings shame on the name, family, and honor of whomever repeats them as truth. If *that* is the best the conservative blogosphere has to offer, then it's time to admit the conservative blogosphere is just flat out wrong and to stop parroting their lies and propaganda until Trump and his cronies are in jail where they belong and things can go back to normal.

I mean, I get it. You want to fight against the status quo and you elected this guy to go in and bust things up and you don't care if the targets of your ire complain that the status quo is being changed. I totally understand that. But you chose the wrong guy to go in and bust up the status quo. This isn't George Washington. This is Fidel Castro.

The right wing and Conservative blogosphere is couched in dog whistle racism, xenophobia and nationalism. This is by design and I can understand why some people maybe ignorant to this but with Nate he keeps repeating the same flawed racial arguments even when it’s pointed out that his sources are trash. I don’t see how conspiracy theories and repeating talking points from the alt right adds to the discourse in this thread.

And if you don’t believe me how white supremacists have infiltrated the right here are a few examples:

https://www.buzzfeed.com/josephbernstein/heres-how-breitbart-and-milo-smuggled-white-nationalism?utm_term=.cy343LK5m#.vigQwq0BX

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/08/19/opinion/sunday/white-nationalism-american-history-statues.html

The most effective tactics for white nationalists are to associate American history with themselves and to suggest that the collective efforts to turn away from our white supremacist past are the same as abandoning American culture. My father, the founder of the white nationalist website Stormfront, knew this well. It’s a message that erases people of color and their essential role in American life, but one that also appeals to large numbers of white people who would agree with the statement, “I’m not racist, but I don’t want American history dishonored, and this statue of Robert E. Lee shouldn’t be removed.”

It was too easy for politicians to condemn the movement — even when there was overlap on policy issues — because it was a liability without enough political force to make the huge cost of associating with it worthwhile.

[closg00]

Nates comments are debunked in a post I made earlier.
Plus Nate conveniently forgets the Republican Majority has not let the Democratic rebuttal of the Nune's Memo made public!
This is a long rebuttal about the Nunes Memo and yes it was from a liberal site but factually it is extremely hard to dispute.
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/2/4/1738508/-This-Destroys-the-Nunes-Memo

Forgive me cammac. I didn't get a chance to rebut this. You understand that it's just me and SD20 against about 10 of you, so sometimes it's hard to address everything.

1. The Republican Memo Is Solely About Alleged FISA Abuses Against Carter Page
- True. But as I just pointed out in a post this morning, the Title 1 FISA warrant against Page is the key to all of this. It allows virtually unlimited spying on the entire Trump team, going backward and forward in time.

2. Why Do Republicans Suddenly Care About Nobody Carter Page?
- See above

3. Republicans are Attacking our own FBI over Alleged FISA Abuses against a Long Suspected Russian Agent
- The evidence that Page was actually a Russian agent is pretty scant. He certainly is a guy who is very interested in developing financial relationships with Russian energy people, but that's pretty much what you would expect if you're looking for someone to advise you about Russia. You would add people who have had either diplomatic or economic relationships with Russian (preferably both). His statements that he sympathizes with Russia over the U.S, in some of the more recent Ukraine issues is not a crime. Indeed, many conservatives, libertarians and old-style leftists would agree. And I think the fact that he has been under surveillance for almost a decade without being caught in a criminal act is pretty good evidence that he is not a spy.

4. Republicans Approved the FISA Warrant & The Investigation
- Comey is nominally a Republican, but covered for Clinton on the email scandal so you'll forgive me if I'm not sold on his loyalty. Rosenstein is also a nominal Republican, but Trump wasn't really at liberty to put "his guys" there because there was already so much scrutiny and a clamor to impeach him for obstruction of justice. I'll note that it was Rosenstein who allegedly advised him to fire Comey, and then Rosenstein appointed Mueller as special counsel to investigate Trump. The fact that the FISA judges are Republicans is irrelevant. They weren't corrupt. They had insufficient information due to the corruption of others.

5. Trump’s Own Republican Appointees Said that the Republican House Memo Was False and Misleading
- That's not exactly what he said. He didn't say false. He said there were omissions that were misleading. I'm open-minded to hearing what those omissions are.

6. Republicans Have Created a False Narrative that FISA Judges Were Not Told of the Possible Political Bias Behind the Steele Dossier
- It's not a false narrative. Beacon free press started the opposition research, but Steele didn't get involved until the DNC had taken over funding the project. It was clearly a political operation that was clearly funded by the DNC. The FBI new this and didn't tell the FISA court.

7. The FISA Warrant Was Not Granted Until After Carter Page Left the Trump Campaign
- Refer to #1 above. The timing is irrelevant because the Title 1 FISA warrant allows them to look back at old communications.

8. Republican Claims of “Bias” Against Trump Are Circular Reasoning
- This is a pretty weak argument. Dailykos wants you to believe that the bias against Trump was specifically related to the secret stuff they knew about Trump. When I read those texts, I see a much stronger bias than that. Ultimately it's subjective.

9. Republicans Forget Their Own Special Prosecutor Bias
- As liberals are so prone to say, that sounds like "whataboutism" to me.

10. If Republicans Really Want Transparency, Why Not Release Texts Related to the Benghazi Investigation and the Trump Campaigns Emails?
- This is irrelevant to the matter. The article is grasping at straws at this point

11. Remember When Trump Surrogates Talked About the “Bias” in the FBI Against Hillary?
- See #10 above

12. Yes, Someone Was Investigated By the FBI Based on a Salacious, Unverified Partisan Hit-Piece...Hillary
- Where are those 33,000 emails, by the way?

Nate's domino that is the premise of this entire conspiracy theory, never falls, it has been factually debunked.

The warrant was issued and then renewed three separate times. Each time, as is standard in seeking a FISA warrant, a judge reviewed extensive information before issuing it. The fact that the warrant was renewed three times indicates that the F.B.I. obtained useful intelligence each time — a judge wouldn’t have approved a renewal if the prior warrant came up empty. That suggests that once the warrants were issued, they revealed important evidence.

In addition, the timeline set forth in the memo indicates that the FISA warrants were submitted by both the Obama and Trump administrations. The initial surveillance began before Mr. Rosenstein was deputy attorney general, and by the time he was at the Justice Department, he approved renewal applications that were based on the intelligence gathered from the earlier surveillance — not the dossier.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/03/opinion/memo-nunes-trump-obstruction.html

Debunked. If you care to challenge any of the actual facts, have at it.
Nune's entire mission here was doomed to fail because he can't hide all of the facts, he can only distort the existing information, what he hid will eventually come out in the Democrat memo when they eventually release it. No-doubt the Republican's will come-up with fake excuses to hold-up the release of the response, thus giving-away the game.

Nune's is really bad at helping the cover-up, I concede that his efforts are very effective with "The base"

[gtn130]

There are most certainly racists on the planet and in the US. But no, it isn't a binary thing. Some don't even know they are racist. They don't understand which policies we have that are racist - it is an educational and dialog thing - not a lockout labeling thing.

We HAVE made progress over time. I go back to basically the beginning of this chart - this isn't anecdotal.

How did this happen? Yelling at everyone that they are racist - nope, just opposite.

I don't think ignorant, apolitical but well-intentioned folks who have a few casual misconceptions about race dynamics or socioeconomic inequality should be shouted down as RACISTS.

I do think someone like Nate is explicitly racist and doesn't fit that description. So it really is a binary thing in this context.

We've made progress over time, but accepting interracial marriage is an insanely low bar to clear. I don't think we should at all be complacent with that type of 'progress' - it's actually kind of an embarrassment that that's the statistic you have to cite to make your argument.

But gtn, if you started "back in the day" you wouldn't think it a low bar or an embarrassment - rather steady but slow progress.

We went from, I don't want a black on my block to its okay for my kids to marry a black. And we had a back President. "Back in the day" everyone was what you would now call an explicit racist (including cammac's wife). Now you have a vast majority trying NOT to be racist.

Yes, we still have a very long way to go. But let's keep the dialog going and make some progress - you will be surprised at what we can accomplish.

That's all fine and good that we're giving privileged racists the absolute maximum amount of time to reflect on and examine their shortcomings, but I think, you know, maybe the next time those same folks who condemn poor black people or black on black crime or [insert dog whistle BS], maybe they can recognize that they're not affording others that same generosity?????

Be nice to white racists - they've come a long way!

Those blacks, though. Time to move on from slavery, folks! Can't blame mean old Whitey for everything! Have you seen what's going on in Chicago????

[nate33]

Nates comments are debunked in a post I made earlier.
Plus Nate conveniently forgets the Republican Majority has not let the Democratic rebuttal of the Nune's Memo made public!
This is a long rebuttal about the Nunes Memo and yes it was from a liberal site but factually it is extremely hard to dispute.
https://www.dailykos.com/stories/2018/2/4/1738508/-This-Destroys-the-Nunes-Memo

Forgive me cammac. I didn't get a chance to rebut this. You understand that it's just me and SD20 against about 10 of you, so sometimes it's hard to address everything.

1. The Republican Memo Is Solely About Alleged FISA Abuses Against Carter Page
- True. But as I just pointed out in a post this morning, the Title 1 FISA warrant against Page is the key to all of this. It allows virtually unlimited spying on the entire Trump team, going backward and forward in time.

2. Why Do Republicans Suddenly Care About Nobody Carter Page?
- See above

3. Republicans are Attacking our own FBI over Alleged FISA Abuses against a Long Suspected Russian Agent
- The evidence that Page was actually a Russian agent is pretty scant. He certainly is a guy who is very interested in developing financial relationships with Russian energy people, but that's pretty much what you would expect if you're looking for someone to advise you about Russia. You would add people who have had either diplomatic or economic relationships with Russian (preferably both). His statements that he sympathizes with Russia over the U.S, in some of the more recent Ukraine issues is not a crime. Indeed, many conservatives, libertarians and old-style leftists would agree. And I think the fact that he has been under surveillance for almost a decade without being caught in a criminal act is pretty good evidence that he is not a spy.

4. Republicans Approved the FISA Warrant & The Investigation
- Comey is nominally a Republican, but covered for Clinton on the email scandal so you'll forgive me if I'm not sold on his loyalty. Rosenstein is also a nominal Republican, but Trump wasn't really at liberty to put "his guys" there because there was already so much scrutiny and a clamor to impeach him for obstruction of justice. I'll note that it was Rosenstein who allegedly advised him to fire Comey, and then Rosenstein appointed Mueller as special counsel to investigate Trump. The fact that the FISA judges are Republicans is irrelevant. They weren't corrupt. They had insufficient information due to the corruption of others.

5. Trump’s Own Republican Appointees Said that the Republican House Memo Was False and Misleading
- That's not exactly what he said. He didn't say false. He said there were omissions that were misleading. I'm open-minded to hearing what those omissions are.

6. Republicans Have Created a False Narrative that FISA Judges Were Not Told of the Possible Political Bias Behind the Steele Dossier
- It's not a false narrative. Beacon free press started the opposition research, but Steele didn't get involved until the DNC had taken over funding the project. It was clearly a political operation that was clearly funded by the DNC. The FBI new this and didn't tell the FISA court.

7. The FISA Warrant Was Not Granted Until After Carter Page Left the Trump Campaign
- Refer to #1 above. The timing is irrelevant because the Title 1 FISA warrant allows them to look back at old communications.

8. Republican Claims of “Bias” Against Trump Are Circular Reasoning
- This is a pretty weak argument. Dailykos wants you to believe that the bias against Trump was specifically related to the secret stuff they knew about Trump. When I read those texts, I see a much stronger bias than that. Ultimately it's subjective.

9. Republicans Forget Their Own Special Prosecutor Bias
- As liberals are so prone to say, that sounds like "whataboutism" to me.

10. If Republicans Really Want Transparency, Why Not Release Texts Related to the Benghazi Investigation and the Trump Campaigns Emails?
- This is irrelevant to the matter. The article is grasping at straws at this point

11. Remember When Trump Surrogates Talked About the “Bias” in the FBI Against Hillary?
- See #10 above

12. Yes, Someone Was Investigated By the FBI Based on a Salacious, Unverified Partisan Hit-Piece...Hillary
- Where are those 33,000 emails, by the way?

Nate's domino that is the premise of this entire conspiracy theory, never falls, it has been factually debunked.

The warrant was issued and then renewed three separate times. Each time, as is standard in seeking a FISA warrant, a judge reviewed extensive information before issuing it. The fact that the warrant was renewed three times indicates that the F.B.I. obtained useful intelligence each time — a judge wouldn’t have approved a renewal if the prior warrant came up empty. That suggests that once the warrants were issued, they revealed important evidence.

In addition, the timeline set forth in the memo indicates that the FISA warrants were submitted by both the Obama and Trump administrations. The initial surveillance began before Mr. Rosenstein was deputy attorney general, and by the time he was at the Justice Department, he approved renewal applications that were based on the intelligence gathered from the earlier surveillance — not the dossier.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/03/opinion/memo-nunes-trump-obstruction.html

Debunked. If you care to challenge any of the actual facts, have at it. June's entire mission here was doomed to fail because he can't hide all of the facts, he can only distort the existing information, what he hid will eventually come out in the Democrat memo when they eventually release it. No-doubt the Republican's will come-up with fake excuses to hold-up the release of the response, thus giving-away the game.

Nune's is really bad at helping the cover-up, I concede that his efforts are very effective with "The base"

That debunks nothing. Perhaps the surveillance made after the first FISA warrant justified further surveillance, but the first FISA warrant was not justified. You can't illegally snoop around for dirt on someone, and then eventually find dirt, and use that dirt to justify the illegality of the initial investigation. It's a fundamental premise of our Constitution. You need probable cause to perform the initial surveillance or else any evidence obtained is poisoned fruit.

[Pointgod]

He really is...

While I enjoy your posts and in many cases are thought provoking and well written. I have fought racism in my own way for the better part of my life and saw Nate's indefensible comments on Muslims, Blacks,Immigrants and everything else that didn't fit into his homogeneous white world. So no he isn't better than that actually far worse.

I think everyone is worth it. I have seen Trump twist this country into a knot - if we are to get out of it, it isn't going to be an us against them issue. You have seen the same (anecdotally) with your wife.

I am an old guy - I have seen things shift with respect to racism. It has been ever so slow but steady to the point that we had a black president. And that progress didn't come from the us against them crowd - it came from the we (MLK) crowd.

My two cents...

People should really read all of MLK’s writings instead of just reading the sanitized commercial speeches that are put out for public consumption. Keep in mind at the height of the civil rights movement 60-70% of the country was AGAINST the civil rights movement. The true progressives were the radicals of their time not the let’s not rock the boat crowd. In fact MLK had a scathing message to the white moderates

First, I must confess that over the past few years I have been gravely disappointed with the white moderate. I have almost reached the regrettable conclusion that the Negro’s great stumbling block in his stride toward freedom is not the White Citizen’s Council-er or the Ku Klux Klanner, but the white moderate, who is more devoted to “order” than to justice; who prefers a negative peace which is the absence of tension to a positive peace which is the presence of justice; who constantly says: “I agree with you in the goal you seek, but I cannot agree with your methods of direct action”; who paternalistically believes he can set the timetable for another man’s freedom; who lives by a mythical concept of time and who constantly advises the Negro to wait for a “more convenient season.” Shallow understanding from people of good will is more frustrating than absolute misunderstanding from people of ill will. Lukewarm acceptance is much more bewildering than outright rejection.

If MLK was alive today he’d be on the side of kneeling athletes, he’d be Trumps most outspoken critic(and I’m sure trump would have disparaging remarks about him), he’d support tearing down the confederate monuments and he wouldn’t be afraid to call a racist a racist.

[gtn130]

That debunks nothing. Perhaps the surveillance made after the first FISA warrant justified further surveillance, but the first FISA warrant was not justified. You can't illegally snoop around for dirt on someone, and then eventually find dirt, and use that dirt to justify the illegality of the initial investigation. It's a fundamental premise of our Constitution. You need probable cause to make to perform the initial surveillance or else any evidence obtained is poisoned fruit.

And this is the issue you care about????? You don't give a single **** about the actual subject matter of the investigation. What you care about is ensuring the FISA warrants were correctly obtained down to the letter of the law!

In the poker world, this is what you call a 'tell' my friend.

Nate, why weren't you in this thread beating the drum against FISA when Nunes and everyone else voted to expand it just a few weeks ago?

Let me answer that for you - it's because you don't care about FISA at all. You're carrying water for Daddy and you just told on yourself.

[JWizmentality]

Forgive me cammac. I didn't get a chance to rebut this. You understand that it's just me and SD20 against about 10 of you, so sometimes it's hard to address everything.

1. The Republican Memo Is Solely About Alleged FISA Abuses Against Carter Page
- True. But as I just pointed out in a post this morning, the Title 1 FISA warrant against Page is the key to all of this. It allows virtually unlimited spying on the entire Trump team, going backward and forward in time.

2. Why Do Republicans Suddenly Care About Nobody Carter Page?
- See above

3. Republicans are Attacking our own FBI over Alleged FISA Abuses against a Long Suspected Russian Agent
- The evidence that Page was actually a Russian agent is pretty scant. He certainly is a guy who is very interested in developing financial relationships with Russian energy people, but that's pretty much what you would expect if you're looking for someone to advise you about Russia. You would add people who have had either diplomatic or economic relationships with Russian (preferably both). His statements that he sympathizes with Russia over the U.S, in some of the more recent Ukraine issues is not a crime. Indeed, many conservatives, libertarians and old-style leftists would agree. And I think the fact that he has been under surveillance for almost a decade without being caught in a criminal act is pretty good evidence that he is not a spy.

4. Republicans Approved the FISA Warrant & The Investigation
- Comey is nominally a Republican, but covered for Clinton on the email scandal so you'll forgive me if I'm not sold on his loyalty. Rosenstein is also a nominal Republican, but Trump wasn't really at liberty to put "his guys" there because there was already so much scrutiny and a clamor to impeach him for obstruction of justice. I'll note that it was Rosenstein who allegedly advised him to fire Comey, and then Rosenstein appointed Mueller as special counsel to investigate Trump. The fact that the FISA judges are Republicans is irrelevant. They weren't corrupt. They had insufficient information due to the corruption of others.

5. Trump’s Own Republican Appointees Said that the Republican House Memo Was False and Misleading
- That's not exactly what he said. He didn't say false. He said there were omissions that were misleading. I'm open-minded to hearing what those omissions are.

6. Republicans Have Created a False Narrative that FISA Judges Were Not Told of the Possible Political Bias Behind the Steele Dossier
- It's not a false narrative. Beacon free press started the opposition research, but Steele didn't get involved until the DNC had taken over funding the project. It was clearly a political operation that was clearly funded by the DNC. The FBI new this and didn't tell the FISA court.

7. The FISA Warrant Was Not Granted Until After Carter Page Left the Trump Campaign
- Refer to #1 above. The timing is irrelevant because the Title 1 FISA warrant allows them to look back at old communications.

8. Republican Claims of “Bias” Against Trump Are Circular Reasoning
- This is a pretty weak argument. Dailykos wants you to believe that the bias against Trump was specifically related to the secret stuff they knew about Trump. When I read those texts, I see a much stronger bias than that. Ultimately it's subjective.

9. Republicans Forget Their Own Special Prosecutor Bias
- As liberals are so prone to say, that sounds like "whataboutism" to me.

10. If Republicans Really Want Transparency, Why Not Release Texts Related to the Benghazi Investigation and the Trump Campaigns Emails?
- This is irrelevant to the matter. The article is grasping at straws at this point

11. Remember When Trump Surrogates Talked About the “Bias” in the FBI Against Hillary?
- See #10 above

12. Yes, Someone Was Investigated By the FBI Based on a Salacious, Unverified Partisan Hit-Piece...Hillary
- Where are those 33,000 emails, by the way?

Nate's domino that is the premise of this entire conspiracy theory, never falls, it has been factually debunked.

The warrant was issued and then renewed three separate times. Each time, as is standard in seeking a FISA warrant, a judge reviewed extensive information before issuing it. The fact that the warrant was renewed three times indicates that the F.B.I. obtained useful intelligence each time — a judge wouldn’t have approved a renewal if the prior warrant came up empty. That suggests that once the warrants were issued, they revealed important evidence.

In addition, the timeline set forth in the memo indicates that the FISA warrants were submitted by both the Obama and Trump administrations. The initial surveillance began before Mr. Rosenstein was deputy attorney general, and by the time he was at the Justice Department, he approved renewal applications that were based on the intelligence gathered from the earlier surveillance — not the dossier.

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/02/03/opinion/memo-nunes-trump-obstruction.html

Debunked. If you care to challenge any of the actual facts, have at it. June's entire mission here was doomed to fail because he can't hide all of the facts, he can only distort the existing information, what he hid will eventually come out in the Democrat memo when they eventually release it. No-doubt the Republican's will come-up with fake excuses to hold-up the release of the response, thus giving-away the game.

Nune's is really bad at helping the cover-up, I concede that his efforts are very effective with "The base"

That debunks nothing. Perhaps the surveillance made after the first FISA warrant justified further surveillance, but the first FISA warrant was not justified. You can't illegally snoop around for dirt on someone, and then eventually find dirt, and use that dirt to justify the illegality of the initial investigation. It's a fundamental premise of our Constitution. You need probable cause to perform the initial surveillance or else any evidence obtained is poisoned fruit.

You have no basis whatsoever to say the first warrant was not justified. We don't have all the information which is what Christopher Wray has been saying. This joke of a memo only picked what fit a narrative. It was not too long ago you were livid that Obama wanted to try terrorists in our legal system because that would give them access to lawyers. You know...procedure. So stop acting like you care about it now.

[Pointgod]

That debunks nothing. Perhaps the surveillance made after the first FISA warrant justified further surveillance, but the first FISA warrant was not justified. You can't illegally snoop around for dirt on someone, and then eventually find dirt, and use that dirt to justify the illegality of the initial investigation. It's a fundamental premise of our Constitution. You need probable cause to make to perform the initial surveillance or else any evidence obtained is poisoned fruit.

And this is the issue you care about????? You don't give a single **** about the actual subject matter of the investigation. What you care about is ensuring the FISA warrants were correctly obtained down to the letter of the law!

In the poker world, this is what you call a 'tell' my friend.

Nate, why weren't you in this thread beating the drum against FISA when Nunes and everyone else voted to expand it just a few weeks ago?

Let me answer that for you - it's because you don't care about FISA at all. You're carrying water for Daddy and you just told on yourself.

Nate’s response:

[stilldropin20]

Yeah somebody needs to check the IP address of gtn in point God. They laugh at their own jokes way too often

Sent from my SM-N920T using RealGM mobile app

[dckingsfan]

I don't think ignorant, apolitical but well-intentioned folks who have a few casual misconceptions about race dynamics or socioeconomic inequality should be shouted down as RACISTS.

I do think someone like Nate is explicitly racist and doesn't fit that description. So it really is a binary thing in this context.

We've made progress over time, but accepting interracial marriage is an insanely low bar to clear. I don't think we should at all be complacent with that type of 'progress' - it's actually kind of an embarrassment that that's the statistic you have to cite to make your argument.

But gtn, if you started "back in the day" you wouldn't think it a low bar or an embarrassment - rather steady but slow progress.

We went from, I don't want a black on my block to its okay for my kids to marry a black. And we had a back President. "Back in the day" everyone was what you would now call an explicit racist (including cammac's wife). Now you have a vast majority trying NOT to be racist.

Yes, we still have a very long way to go. But let's keep the dialog going and make some progress - you will be surprised at what we can accomplish.

That's all fine and good that we're giving privileged racists the absolute maximum amount of time to reflect on and examine their shortcomings, but I think, you know, maybe the next time those same folks who condemn poor black people or black on black crime or [insert dog whistle BS], maybe they can recognize that they're not affording others that same generosity?????

Be nice to white racists - they've come a long way!

Those blacks, though. Time to move on from slavery, folks! Can't blame mean old Whitey for everything! Have you seen what's going on in Chicago????

No - you missed what I said. I am pointing out that a vast majority aren't racist any longer - that we are making continual progress. And that making solid arguments moves folks in the right direction. I gave you data and anecdotal information.

But I also pointed out that you and pointgod like to jump the gun and call anyone that isn't in your camp - evil racists. Sorry - I am not having any of it...

[nate33]

That debunks nothing. Perhaps the surveillance made after the first FISA warrant justified further surveillance, but the first FISA warrant was not justified. You can't illegally snoop around for dirt on someone, and then eventually find dirt, and use that dirt to justify the illegality of the initial investigation. It's a fundamental premise of our Constitution. You need probable cause to make to perform the initial surveillance or else any evidence obtained is poisoned fruit.

And this is the issue you care about????? You don't give a single **** about the actual subject matter of the investigation. What you care about is ensuring the FISA warrants were correctly obtained down to the letter of the law!

In the poker world, this is what you call a 'tell' my friend.

Nate, why weren't you in this thread beating the drum against FISA when Nunes and everyone else voted to expand it just a few weeks ago?

Let me answer that for you - it's because you don't care about FISA at all. You're carrying water for Daddy and you just told on yourself.

Because FISA is a useful anti-terrorism tool. Properly used, it might save thousands of lives. Improperly used, it's a horrible imposition on our freedom.

[Pointgod]

Yeah somebody needs to check the IP address of gtn in point God. They laugh at their own jokes way too often

Sent from my SM-N920T using RealGM mobile app

It’s obviously a deep state Globalist George Soros conspiracy.

[gtn130]

That debunks nothing. Perhaps the surveillance made after the first FISA warrant justified further surveillance, but the first FISA warrant was not justified. You can't illegally snoop around for dirt on someone, and then eventually find dirt, and use that dirt to justify the illegality of the initial investigation. It's a fundamental premise of our Constitution. You need probable cause to make to perform the initial surveillance or else any evidence obtained is poisoned fruit.

And this is the issue you care about????? You don't give a single **** about the actual subject matter of the investigation. What you care about is ensuring the FISA warrants were correctly obtained down to the letter of the law!

In the poker world, this is what you call a 'tell' my friend.

Nate, why weren't you in this thread beating the drum against FISA when Nunes and everyone else voted to expand it just a few weeks ago?

Let me answer that for you - it's because you don't care about FISA at all. You're carrying water for Daddy and you just told on yourself.

Because FISA is a useful anti-terrorism tool. Properly used, it might save thousands of lives. Improperly used, it's a horrible imposition on our freedom.

Ohhhhhh, ok.

But you weren't bothered at all that such a useful and efficient tool was in the hands of Corrupted #DeepState Obama Judges?

I would think a FISA hawk such as yourself would have been up in arms that the GOP could be so brazen and negligent as they put one of the most powerful anti-terrorism tools in the hands of the enemy.

Were you busy a few weeks ago or something?

[nate33]

And this is the issue you care about????? You don't give a single **** about the actual subject matter of the investigation. What you care about is ensuring the FISA warrants were correctly obtained down to the letter of the law!

In the poker world, this is what you call a 'tell' my friend.

Nate, why weren't you in this thread beating the drum against FISA when Nunes and everyone else voted to expand it just a few weeks ago?

Let me answer that for you - it's because you don't care about FISA at all. You're carrying water for Daddy and you just told on yourself.

Because FISA is a useful anti-terrorism tool. Properly used, it might save thousands of lives. Improperly used, it's a horrible imposition on our freedom.

Ohhhhhh, ok.

But you weren't bothered at all that such a useful and efficient tool was in the hands of Corrupted #DeepState Obama Judges?

I would think a FISA hawk such as yourself would have been up in arms that the GOP could be so brazen and negligent as they put one of the most powerful anti-terrorism tools in the hands of the enemy.

Were you busy a few weeks ago or something?

I don't understand why you are having trouble grasping this.

The FISA system is a powerful tool that can be used for good or evil. Because some corrupt people abused it, doesn't make the program inherently evil. It makes the abusers evil.

By your logic, we shouldn't have police at all because some cops have made bad arrests and shot innocent people.

[FAH1223]

Watch on YouTube

[Pointgod]

But gtn, if you started "back in the day" you wouldn't think it a low bar or an embarrassment - rather steady but slow progress.

We went from, I don't want a black on my block to its okay for my kids to marry a black. And we had a back President. "Back in the day" everyone was what you would now call an explicit racist (including cammac's wife). Now you have a vast majority trying NOT to be racist.

Yes, we still have a very long way to go. But let's keep the dialog going and make some progress - you will be surprised at what we can accomplish.

That's all fine and good that we're giving privileged racists the absolute maximum amount of time to reflect on and examine their shortcomings, but I think, you know, maybe the next time those same folks who condemn poor black people or black on black crime or [insert dog whistle BS], maybe they can recognize that they're not affording others that same generosity?????

Be nice to white racists - they've come a long way!

Those blacks, though. Time to move on from slavery, folks! Can't blame mean old Whitey for everything! Have you seen what's going on in Chicago????

No - you missed what I said. I am pointing out that a vast majority aren't racist any longer - that we are making continual progress. And that making solid arguments moves folks in the right direction. I gave you data and anecdotal information.

But I also pointed out that you and pointgod like to jump the gun and call anyone that isn't in your camp - evil racists. Sorry - I am not having any of it...

Are you sure about that or did they just go underground? The majority of white people believe that white people face the most racism in the country. White pride was the reason Trump won every demographic of white people. I’ve asked you to point out where I’ve called people that simply disagree with me racist but you obviously can’t. I simply speak plainly when it comes to race and I don’t say anything that can’t be backed up by studies, research or evidence.

The biggest hurdle when it comes to race relations is that white people are actually more disgusted by being called racist than living in a white supremacist system. Most people of color could live with the garden variety racists that you’ll find on message boards as long as institutional racism was destroyed.

[closg00]

That debunks nothing. Perhaps the surveillance made after the first FISA warrant justified further surveillance, but the first FISA warrant was not justified. You can't illegally snoop around for dirt on someone, and then eventually find dirt, and use that dirt to justify the illegality of the initial investigation. It's a fundamental premise of our Constitution. You need probable cause to perform the initial surveillance or else any evidence obtained is poisoned fruit.

Another important fact Nate, you can toss out Carter Page entirely and the Russia probe would have existed. Why? Because at the very end the Nunes Memo states:

“The Papadopoulos information triggered the opening of an FBI counterintelligence investigation in late July 2016 by FBI agent Pete Strzok.”

So Nunes kind of does a *Cough*, btw, it was Papadopoulos that got this thing kicked-off. *Cough*

Papadopoulos is the John Dean here, he sang his little heart out and he can testify to the collusion. Flynn will sing beautifully about the direction he took from Trump about the Russian sanctions and who knows what else. Everything will come out.

[gtn130]

Because FISA is a useful anti-terrorism tool. Properly used, it might save thousands of lives. Improperly used, it's a horrible imposition on our freedom.

Ohhhhhh, ok.

But you weren't bothered at all that such a useful and efficient tool was in the hands of Corrupted #DeepState Obama Judges?

I would think a FISA hawk such as yourself would have been up in arms that the GOP could be so brazen and negligent as they put one of the most powerful anti-terrorism tools in the hands of the enemy.

Were you busy a few weeks ago or something?

I don't understand why you are having trouble grasping this.

The FISA system is a powerful tool that can be used for good or evil. Because some corrupt people abused it, doesn't make the program inherently evil. It makes the abusers evil.

By your logic, we shouldn't have police at all because some cops have made bad arrests and shot innocent people.

No way man. I'm simply worried about a powerful anti-terrorism tool such as FISA being put in the hands of the bad guys - Corrupt Obama #DeepState Judges.

We FISA hawks were FURIOUS last month when 702 was reauthorized! Why weren't you fighting the good fight with us???

I'm starting to believe you aren't as passionate a FISA watchdog as I thought you were, Nate.