Political Roundtable Part XXVI

[Zonkerbl]

Now I know what Cassandra felt like

[dckingsfan]

I just don't think it's possible to hate HRC's policies that much. They're Dem policies, which enjoy a majority of support. To hate Dem policies on abortion that much that you would vote for Trump instead is unthinkable, unless you are also motivated by hate. Because what Trump is doing is so bad, so hateful that any reasonable person who didn't secretly agree that immigrants should be rounded up for eventual extermination, to "dissuade" them from coming here, would've said "woah hey this is a civilized country. I want abortions and to have doctors commit govt mandated sexual assault with unnecessarily invasive vaginal probes, but otherwise I'm a decent human being and can't support this regime that gives me what I want but at the expense of setting democracy and the rule of law on fire."

This is why I don't understand. The people who support Trump loudly say things like "I want Trump to lock up his political enemies," "the press are the enemy of the people," "I will use my guns to murder liberals 'in self defense,'" many of them have murdered abortion doctors and others say they endorse it, so why are we too squeamish to ask all Trump supporters, "at what point would Trump go too far for you? Only with mass gas chamber exterminations of immigrants, non-fox journalists, abortion doctors, anyone who's too liberal- only when it's far, far too late to stop him? What would it take you to believe the GOP is on this road and therefore pull your support? Or do you secretly support all these things?"

I don't know about you guys but I really, really want to know the answer to these questions. I'd like to start with all the pro Trump people on this board. How much extermination would be too much for you? What would it take to convince you that we are right and Trump and the GOP are leading us down this path? AGAIN?

Or only after all the bodies are piled up in mass graves will you admit your mistake? Or even then will you continue to deny the truth?

Zonk - why are you on this extermination "thing" again. I think you should get out and go to a R bar somewhere. I know, you may have to drive a few hours but it is worth it.

You might find that they are actual human beings. You might find that zero of them would support mass exterminations.

I find your arguments are losers because of Godwin's law.

[Zonkerbl]

I just don't think it's possible to hate HRC's policies that much. They're Dem policies, which enjoy a majority of support. To hate Dem policies on abortion that much that you would vote for Trump instead is unthinkable, unless you are also motivated by hate. Because what Trump is doing is so bad, so hateful that any reasonable person who didn't secretly agree that immigrants should be rounded up for eventual extermination, to "dissuade" them from coming here, would've said "woah hey this is a civilized country. I want abortions and to have doctors commit govt mandated sexual assault with unnecessarily invasive vaginal probes, but otherwise I'm a decent human being and can't support this regime that gives me what I want but at the expense of setting democracy and the rule of law on fire."

This is why I don't understand. The people who support Trump loudly say things like "I want Trump to lock up his political enemies," "the press are the enemy of the people," "I will use my guns to murder liberals 'in self defense,'" many of them have murdered abortion doctors and others say they endorse it, so why are we too squeamish to ask all Trump supporters, "at what point would Trump go too far for you? Only with mass gas chamber exterminations of immigrants, non-fox journalists, abortion doctors, anyone who's too liberal- only when it's far, far too late to stop him? What would it take you to believe the GOP is on this road and therefore pull your support? Or do you secretly support all these things?"

I don't know about you guys but I really, really want to know the answer to these questions. I'd like to start with all the pro Trump people on this board. How much extermination would be too much for you? What would it take to convince you that we are right and Trump and the GOP are leading us down this path? AGAIN?

Or only after all the bodies are piled up in mass graves will you admit your mistake? Or even then will you continue to deny the truth?

Zonk - why are you on this extermination "thing" again. I think you should get out and go to a R bar somewhere. I know, you may have to drive a few hours but it is worth it.

You might find that they are actual human beings. You might find that zero of them would support mass exterminations.

I find your arguments are losers because of Godwin's law.

lol Godwin's law.

Dude Godwin's law went out the window when the first words out of Trump's mouth was "MEXICANS ARE DISEASED RAPISTS" and all the guys at your bar stood up and cheered. Eff those guys, seriously.

We have been screaming at the top of our lungs for the past two years that this is fascism. And all the privileged white people are like "we'll tell you when you should be concerned." MFer, be concerned NOW. *Before* it's too late.

[pancakes3]

[Wizardspride]

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[Wizardspride]

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[I_Like_Dirt]

You might find that they are actual human beings. You might find that zero of them would support mass exterminations.

This is only true if you give them a bunch of potential shields to grab and allow them to pick one of their choice. There are many, many people who support mass incarcerations, be it through private prisons, border operations, or otherwise. There are also many people who got behind the Iraq war without any real evidence of anything other than they knew they hated them for some reason and really couldn't say why other than maybe they looked like the 9/11 hijackers for some odd reason and their leaders suggested they were bad - just a mystery. It isn't hard to find any number of posts on facebook or even have some of them tell you in confidence when they believe you're of the same mind, even if you never do or say anything to suggest as much, that really we should just go kill them all, with "them" being any number of different groups of people depending on who they feel most personally about.

And no, that's not everyone - probably not the majority even, at this point, though it's getting worse fast. But the leap isn't nearly as big as you're suggesting, either. You're well read on pre-WW II stuff. This is different clearly but no two situations are going to be the same and when you look back at that stuff, there were a lot of otherwise intelligent people who were dumbfounded at how that leap was actually made because they didn't see it coming and couldn't make themselves believe it. Even the most intelligent people can flip their brains on certain issues and they won't actually tell you about it unless they truly feel they can trust you.

That said, I personally doubt that there will be a jump from concentration camps to extermination camps. There's far more money to be made by keeping any number of would-be migrants confined than there is in simply killing them. This isn't like for-profit prisons where the death penalty still results in an indefinite incarceration period. I'm not so sure how I feel about that, either, if I'm right.

[dckingsfan]

You might find that they are actual human beings. You might find that zero of them would support mass exterminations.

This is only true if you give them a bunch of potential shields to grab and allow them to pick one of their choice. There are many, many people who support mass incarcerations, be it through private prisons, border operations, or otherwise. There are also many people who got behind the Iraq war without any real evidence of anything other than they knew they hated them for some reason and really couldn't say why other than maybe they looked like the 9/11 hijackers for some odd reason and their leaders suggested they were bad - just a mystery. It isn't hard to find any number of posts on facebook or even have some of them tell you in confidence when they believe you're of the same mind, even if you never do or say anything to suggest as much, that really we should just go kill them all, with "them" being any number of different groups of people depending on who they feel most personally about.

And no, that's not everyone - probably not the majority even, at this point, though it's getting worse fast. But the leap isn't nearly as big as you're suggesting, either. You're well read on pre-WW II stuff. This is different clearly but no two situations are going to be the same and when you look back at that stuff, there were a lot of otherwise intelligent people who were dumbfounded at how that leap was actually made because they didn't see it coming and couldn't make themselves believe it. Even the most intelligent people can flip their brains on certain issues and they won't actually tell you about it unless they truly feel they can trust you.

That said, I personally doubt that there will be a jump from concentration camps to extermination camps. There's far more money to be made by keeping any number of would-be migrants confined than there is in simply killing them. This isn't like for-profit prisons where the death penalty still results in an indefinite incarceration period. I'm not so sure how I feel about that, either, if I'm right.

With respect Dirt - get out there and talk to some of them...

[dckingsfan]

Before we start using words - always good to look up their meaning.

con·cen·tra·tion camp.
[ˌkänsənˈtrāSHən ˈˌkamp]
NOUN
A place where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labor or to await mass execution. The term is most strongly associated with the several hundred camps established by the Nazis in Germany and occupied Europe in 1933–45, among the most infamous being Dachau, Belsen, and Auschwitz.

[I_Like_Dirt]

With respect Dirt - get out there and talk to some of them...

With respect, dc, I live with them and absolutely talk to them. I'm starting to get the impression that your discussions tend to often get couched in very simple answers that allow/encourage them to be guarded or that it's more about "of course not this but..."

The amount of people who tell me Trump says the stuff everyone else is thinking is much higher than you're suggesting - well, really, you're suggesting zero, which isn't hard to beat, but it's a significant number regardless. If they're not saying it to you, it's because they're being guarded around you or you're only talking to a certain amount of them. The guys who attended Charlottesville who say that they only attended to see what it was like and that they don't believe any of that - those are almost entirely lies put out there to avoid consequences. They're quite afraid of consequences and tend to only truly say what they believe once they're in groups of like minds - and they surround themselves as such. If they're on their own or more publicly viewable and aware of it, only the truly brash among them will put stuff like that out there. Get them into more private groups where they're with friends or online in private forums and suddenly they're completely different people.

Edit:

Again, back to my previous point. If someone says they're really voting Republican because a universal minimum wage doesn't fit, for example, it's a flat out cover. Besides the point that the Democrats won't succeed on that front anyway, nobody is going to say that it's such a hardline issue that they would accept some of the other stuff going on just to get their way on that issue. It has to be to the point where they care so little about anyone else that they'll get theirs but they won't explain that part of it in words - only through lack of words by patently ignoring everything else. It doesn't take a majority of people looking to kill a bunch of others for it to happen. It takes a select few people who seize power to decide to do it and a bunch of people to care so little that they look the other way. And I'm not really sure if you read your own definition of concentration camp, which TGW pointed out.

[TGW]

Before we start using words - always good to look up their meaning.

con·cen·tra·tion camp.
[ˌkänsənˈtrāSHən ˈˌkamp]
NOUN
A place where large numbers of people, especially political prisoners or members of persecuted minorities, are deliberately imprisoned in a relatively small area with inadequate facilities, sometimes to provide forced labor or to await mass execution. The term is most strongly associated with the several hundred camps established by the Nazis in Germany and occupied Europe in 1933–45, among the most infamous being Dachau, Belsen, and Auschwitz.

That's exactly what they are boss.

[dckingsfan]

With respect Dirt - get out there and talk to some of them...

With respect, dc, I live with them and absolutely talk to them. I'm starting to get the impression that your discussions tend to often get couched in very simple answers that allow/encourage them to be guarded or that it's more about "of course not this but..."

The amount of people who tell me Trump says the stuff everyone else is thinking is much higher than you're suggesting - well, really, you're suggesting zero, which isn't hard to beat, but it's a significant number regardless. If they're not saying it to you, it's because they're being guarded around you or you're only talking to a certain amount of them. The guys who attended Charlottesville who say that they only attended to see what it was like and that they don't believe any of that - those are almost entirely lies put out there to avoid consequences. They're quite afraid of consequences and tend to only truly say what they believe once they're in groups of like minds - and they surround themselves as such. If they're on their own or more publicly viewable and aware of it, only the truly brash among them will put stuff like that out there. Get them into more private groups where they're with friends or online in private forums and suddenly they're completely different people.

Edit:

Again, back to my previous point. If someone says they're really voting Republican because a universal minimum wage doesn't fit, for example, it's a flat out cover. Besides the point that the Democrats won't succeed on that front anyway, nobody is going to say that it's such a hardline issue that they would accept some of the other stuff going on just to get their way on that issue. It has to be to the point where they care so little about anyone else that they'll get theirs but they won't explain that part of it in words - only through lack of words by patently ignoring everything else. It doesn't take a majority of people looking to kill a bunch of others for it to happen. It takes a select few people who seize power to decide to do it and a bunch of people to care so little that they look the other way. And I'm not really sure if you read your own definition of concentration camp, which TGW pointed out.

Dirt - you realize we made the jump from wanting to limit immigration (a top R voter priority) to wanting concentration camps and mass extermination. I am sure if you look for it - you will find some that support such notions. But then to paint all (or a vast majority) Rs are secretly for mass extermination and all other issues just being a cover - that is a poor logical leap.

R issues are reducing immigration, eliminating abortion, the economy. Those are their top three.

D issues are healthcare, maintaining abortion rights, distribution of wealth.

You think their is going to be some conflict? Baby killers and concentration camp advocates.

[pancakes3]

immigration is a made up concern, is contrary to the economic proposition that the free flow of labor is a net positive on the economy, and does not address any of the "we need to attract educated immigrants" issue presented by H1B quotas, or quotas in general.

abortion is settled law, and has been for 30+ years now. the continued charade that abortion is up for debate is, legally, unconstitutional.

everybody wants a strong economy - that's a nonpartisan issue.

don't hide behind "extermination" as some sort of unassailable, categorical defense that the detention camps at the border are somehow ethical. it's not a poor logical leap to say that these camps, where people *are* dying, is somehow a defensible program because their *primary purpose* isn't to kill people.

[Wizardspride]

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[Pointgod]

I just don't think it's possible to hate HRC's policies that much. They're Dem policies, which enjoy a majority of support. To hate Dem policies on abortion that much that you would vote for Trump instead is unthinkable, unless you are also motivated by hate. Because what Trump is doing is so bad, so hateful that any reasonable person who didn't secretly agree that immigrants should be rounded up for eventual extermination, to "dissuade" them from coming here, would've said "woah hey this is a civilized country. I want abortions and to have doctors commit govt mandated sexual assault with unnecessarily invasive vaginal probes, but otherwise I'm a decent human being and can't support this regime that gives me what I want but at the expense of setting democracy and the rule of law on fire."

This is why I don't understand. The people who support Trump loudly say things like "I want Trump to lock up his political enemies," "the press are the enemy of the people," "I will use my guns to murder liberals 'in self defense,'" many of them have murdered abortion doctors and others say they endorse it, so why are we too squeamish to ask all Trump supporters, "at what point would Trump go too far for you? Only with mass gas chamber exterminations of immigrants, non-fox journalists, abortion doctors, anyone who's too liberal- only when it's far, far too late to stop him? What would it take you to believe the GOP is on this road and therefore pull your support? Or do you secretly support all these things?"

I don't know about you guys but I really, really want to know the answer to these questions. I'd like to start with all the pro Trump people on this board. How much extermination would be too much for you? What would it take to convince you that we are right and Trump and the GOP are leading us down this path? AGAIN?

Or only after all the bodies are piled up in mass graves will you admit your mistake? Or even then will you continue to deny the truth?

Zonk - why are you on this extermination "thing" again. I think you should get out and go to a R bar somewhere. I know, you may have to drive a few hours but it is worth it.

You might find that they are actual human beings. You might find that zero of them would support mass exterminations.

I find your arguments are losers because of Godwin's law.

So are the people migrants who are seeking asylum. It is an undeniable fact that children in these camps have died. Let’s read that again children are dying and the party that’s supposedly pro life supports this. It shouldn’t be a bipartisan issue, any American should not want a single preventable death of any migrant or illegal immigrant. Yet here we are dckings, those same Republicans you say people should talk to simply look away or support the policies that I’ll reiterate, leads to death of people. Some Trump supporter at a rally yelled that they should shoot them and Trump just brushed it off. How many excuses do you need to give Republicans before you admit that this is who the party is?

Asylum seekers are legally allowed to cross over to US soil to claim asylum, they should be treated in the best conditions given what they’ve gone through. There’s a very easy solution to help alleviate the asylum problem, instead of wasting money sending troops, they could send immigration judges and other administrators to process the claim and move them through the process, but instead the Trump administration and Republicans have chosen cruelty. So in all fairness to Zonk I can see why emotions are heightened when Republicans support and praise policies that are leading to children dying. It starts off slowly and builds up to something much worse.

[pancakes3]

you can also just vote against the current crop of republicans bc they're awful ppl without giving up your identity as a republican.

[pancakes3]

https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/inside-a-texas-building-where-the-government-is-holding-immigrant-children

So, on Wednesday, we received reports from children of a lice outbreak in one of the cells where there were about twenty-five children, and what they told us is that six of the children were found to have lice. And so they were given a lice shampoo, and the other children were given two combs and told to share those two combs, two lice combs, and brush their hair with the same combs, which is something you never do with a lice outbreak. And then what happened was one of the combs was lost, and Border Patrol agents got so mad that they took away the children’s blankets and mats. They weren’t allowed to sleep on the beds, and they had to sleep on the floor on Wednesday night as punishment for losing the comb. So you had a whole cell full of kids who had beds and mats at one point, not for everybody but for most of them, who were forced to sleep on the cement.

...

I’m not going to say that most of the guards care about the kids, because we didn’t talk to most of the guards, but I do believe in the inherent goodness of people. And when I’ve talked to guards, they seemed caring, and they had guards who, when the children were there for these very lengthy interviews, would bring the children lunches in the conference room. They’re terrible lunches. That’s how some of the guards are, but the fact is that some of the guards are bad people, and there’s no question about it.

...

[Y]ou’ve got a guard who is manipulating these kids, very similar to what we heard about in the concentration camps. I’m not going and calling these concentration camps, although I know that some people do.

like, seriously. this is a big deal. if you don't think this is a big deal, there's something wrong with you.

[closg00]

Circling back around on Russiagate. Basically, Manafort & Gates (Stone too) protected Trump by not flipping on him.

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[gtn130]

like, seriously. this is a big deal. if you don't think this is a big deal, there's something wrong with you.

"Obama did it too"

[Pointgod]

Circling back around on Russiagate. Basically, Manafort & Gates (Stone too) protected Trump by not flipping on him.

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This is why the whole no collusion or conspiracy talk was always bull. Mueller made it clear in his report that some people were purposely not cooperating and stonewalling the investigation.