Discussing Other Teams' Moves - Part 8

[gambitx777]

Very glad we avoided overpaying for DM.
Cavs are gonna be good and Utah is definitely gonna unload some vets.

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[Dat2U]

Just in theory... but if the Wizards 'could of' traded Kuz + Carey and 2nd for Beverley + Vanderbilt, they would have improved their win total significantly, likely to the point where they'd be a top 8 seed and probably win more games than they would lose.

Curious on this. Is Beverley better than Delon Wright by any significant amount? Would he play ahead of Wright and Morris or do you play him with Morris and just don't play Kispert and Davis behind Beal? Or do you think the deep depth is that key?

Or, (or maybe and), do you have Vanderbilt as significantly better than Kuzma? Vanderbilt gives you better defense, Kuzma gives you significantly better spacing. Not sure how much more Vanderbilt gives that Gafford can't provide but then I'm a big Gafford fan.

I just don't see the significant win total improvement here and am curious where you see this extra value coming from.

Beverly is significantly better than Morris. Comparable offensively but Beverley is worlds better on defense. A game changer. I'd start Beverley and have Wright (who i view as just a smidge below Beverley) & Morris play together off the bench since Morris can play off the ball too.

Vanderbilt & Kuz are night and day. Kuz looks like the better player and is far more skilled but Vanderbilt runs circles around him in terms of doing the little things. Vanderbilt has a massive advantage defensively and on the boards and any value that Kuzma's spacing brings is undone by his relative inefficiency, shot selection & wasted possessions.

However at this point, i'm fine with staying put. The Wizards have 10 teams clearly ahead of them in the East and only 3 clearly below them. A top 10 lottery pick in 2023 looks very likely.

[payitforward]

Just in theory... but if the Wizards 'could of' traded Kuz + Carey and 2nd for Beverley + Vanderbilt, they would have improved their win total significantly, likely to the point where they'd be a top 8 seed and probably win more games than they would lose.

Agree 1000% !!
In fact, you could make it Kuz, Rui & a 2d (& throw in Todd too if they'd wanted to take a flyer on a young kid) just for Vanderbilt, & I'd have been delighted!

Curious on this. Is Beverley better than Delon Wright by any significant amount?...

That's a fair question.
Beverly is terrific, no doubt about it. But, Wright is kinda similar, also terrific, 4 years younger, & significantly cheaper too.

... (is) Vanderbilt... significantly better than Kuzma?....

I'll say he is!

In 40 minutes on the floor last year, Kuz gave his team 9.5 more points than Vanderbilt did.

OTOH, in 40 minutes on the floor, Vanderbilt gave his team 16.2 more possessions of the ball for other players to use.

...I just don't see the significant win total improvement here and am curious where you see this extra value coming from.

Two identical teams, one on which Kuz plays 2000 minutes, the other on which, instead, Vanderbilt plays 2000 minutes -- I'd say the Vanderbilt team wins something like 10 more games on an 82 game season. Jarred Vanderbilt is a monster.

[9 and 20]

Interrupting the Jared Vanderbilt love to say that the Wiz are garbage for having gone after Donnovan Mitchell, and garbage for having failed to get him. What kind of dumbass team signs a player for 250 mil and then trades 8 picks for another guy who plays the exact same position. And then, when they decide they can't upgrade the roster anymore, just says it's fine to bring back the same bag of azz for another run at the 11 seed. Boo this man.

[doclinkin]

Interrupting the Jared Vanderbilt love to say that the Wiz are garbage for having gone after Donnovan Mitchell, and garbage for having failed to get him. What kind of dumbass team signs a player for 250 mil and then trades 8 picks for another guy who plays the exact same position. And then, when they decide they can't upgrade the roster anymore, just says it's fine to bring back the same bag of azz for another run at the 11 seed. Boo this man.

I seriously doubt reports that the Wiz were ever serious about Mitchell. Tommy talks to everybody, so when teams ask who is calling about XYZ the Wiz' name always comes up.

[payitforward]

I wonder whether it's a question of "serious." When a good player becomes available it's your job to have some interest & see where it takes you. You never know....

But, in principle we just never had a package that would make sense -- at least not once we'd signed the ridiculous deal with Brad.

[dobrojim]

CLE overpaid sending 3 firsts and Sexton.

[nate33]

CLE overpaid sending 3 firsts and Sexton.

Three picks that are likely to be late 1sts doesn't strike me as too high of a price for a 3-time All Star who is about to turn 26. Chemistry-wise, I think he is a very good fit. Cleveland desperately needs a first rate perimeter scorer, and they have the defensive frontcourt to make up for Mitchell's lackluster D.

[Rafael122]

CLE overpaid sending 3 firsts and Sexton.

Three picks that are likely to be late 1sts doesn't strike me as too high of a price for a 3-time All Star who is about to turn 26. Chemistry-wise, I think he is a very good fit. Cleveland desperately needs a first rate perimeter scorer, and they have the defensive frontcourt to make up for Mitchell's lackluster D.

I will say this, we're assuming there's probably 6 teams better than Cleveland in the East and 8-9 teams better than Cleveland in the West. Just going by that, you're already in the mid teens. I don't think these picks are going to land in the mid 20s, but mid to late teens is a possibility. The west is just stacked, and really what the Cavs did was solidify their spot as the 6th best team in the East.

[nate33]

CLE overpaid sending 3 firsts and Sexton.

Three picks that are likely to be late 1sts doesn't strike me as too high of a price for a 3-time All Star who is about to turn 26. Chemistry-wise, I think he is a very good fit. Cleveland desperately needs a first rate perimeter scorer, and they have the defensive frontcourt to make up for Mitchell's lackluster D.

I will say this, we're assuming there's probably 6 teams better than Cleveland in the East and 8-9 teams better than Cleveland in the West. Just going by that, you're already in the mid teens. I don't think these picks are going to land in the mid 20s, but mid to late teens is a possibility. The west is just stacked, and really what the Cavs did was solidify their spot as the 6th best team in the East.

The FRP's included are from 2025, 2027 and 2029. In 2025, Cleveland is going to be much better than the 15th best team in the league three seasons from now. They will have Mitchell, Garland and Allen in their prime, and Mobley just entering his prime. They'll probably be a legit contender by then, or at least a top 4 team in the East.

[dobrojim]

All it might take is an injury prone year to miss playoffs.
DM has looked great at times but a bit meh at other times.
Maybe it’ll work but it seems pretty risky

[payitforward]

...The Wizards have 10 teams clearly ahead of them in the East and only 3 clearly below them. A top 10 lottery pick in 2023 looks very likely.

I'll say.

For that matter, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if one of either Indy or Detroit slips past us this year, btw.... Not predicting it, but the Knicks, Charlotte & Cleveland have already done it, & we're just treading water, so....

[payitforward]

To me, the question whether Cleveland overpaid for Mitchell depends on 3 things:

1. How good you think Mitchell is,
2. What they could have gotten for Sexton in a different sign and trade deal w/ some other team, &
3. How much upside you think Ogbaji has.

I think Mitchell is good, but I've never thought he was a star or had it in him to become one. I could be wrong about that....

I have zero idea what they could have gotten for Sexton. He's not a player I like, but maybe some people like him a lot...?

Ogbaji is the wild card -- if you think he will be a good NBA 2-guard, it's hard to like the trade. I have no fix at all on him.

That said, in principle, if I'd been able to get something valuable for Sexton in some other way, I wouldn't have made the trade.

Put it another way: looks to me like Danny Ainge is doing one hell of a job remaking the Utah Jazz!

[gambitx777]

...The Wizards have 10 teams clearly ahead of them in the East and only 3 clearly below them. A top 10 lottery pick in 2023 looks very likely.

I'll say.

For that matter, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if one of either Indy or Detroit slips past us this year, btw.... Not predicting it, but the Knicks, Charlotte & Cleveland have already done it, & we're just treading water, so....

I think we significantly upgraded the team from last year.
Our guard core is much better. Imo
KP and Beal didn't play together and Beal had a lot of issues off the floor last year.

I think this team is going to be better than last year for sure.

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[Dat2U]

...The Wizards have 10 teams clearly ahead of them in the East and only 3 clearly below them. A top 10 lottery pick in 2023 looks very likely.

I'll say.

For that matter, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if one of either Indy or Detroit slips past us this year, btw.... Not predicting it, but the Knicks, Charlotte & Cleveland have already done it, & we're just treading water, so....

I think we significantly upgraded the team from last year.
Our guard core is much better. Imo
KP and Beal didn't play together and Beal had a lot of issues off the floor last year.

I think this team is going to be better than last year for sure.

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I stand on the belief that making marginal moves around the edges doesn't really move the needle. Adding two good backup PGs and a playable wing won't necessarily equal additional wins. Sure the pieces might fit a tad better but that could still mean 35 wins and the 11th seed as most of the East has improved.

If Wes Jr can squeeze a .500 record or above, he deserves coach of the year consideration.

[nate33]

I'll say.

For that matter, I wouldn't be entirely surprised if one of either Indy or Detroit slips past us this year, btw.... Not predicting it, but the Knicks, Charlotte & Cleveland have already done it, & we're just treading water, so....

I think we significantly upgraded the team from last year.
Our guard core is much better. Imo
KP and Beal didn't play together and Beal had a lot of issues off the floor last year.

I think this team is going to be better than last year for sure.

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I stand on the belief that making marginal moves around the edges doesn't really move the needle. Adding two good backup PGs and a playable wing won't necessarily equal additional wins. Sure the pieces might fit a tad better but that could still mean 35 wins and the 11th seed as most of the East has improved.

If Wes Jr can squeeze a .500 record or above, he deserves coach of the year consideration.

If there's meaningful improvement, it won't really be because of Morris, Wright or Barton. It'll be that Porzingis as a primary option in the high post is legitimately a sustainable offensive foundation, rather than a cute little 19-game run late in a long season.

If Porzingis can play like he did for us last year; and if he and Beal can co-exist in a synergetic manner with Beal getting back to his old ways of playing efficiently off ball, then maybe this could be a .500 team. I'm not particularly optimistic though. I suspect Porzingis won't be quite as good when there's a full scouting report against Wes Jr.'s system, and I have my doubts that Beal can ever get back to being a highly efficient second option (or if he is even willing to try). I think a win total in the mid-30's seems about right.

[Frichuela]

Man. Another mid-30 win season…what a depressing thought. Thank you Terd & co.

[gambitx777]

Westbrooks gonna get traded for sure and i am putting money on Westbrook being on this team by oct

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[dobrojim]

BTW, re the DM trade, after seeing the Fin-Isreal highlights of Markanen, he could be more
than an afterthought. CLE gave up a lot and will continue to give up a lot in salary for DM.
JMO.

[nate33]

Westbrooks gonna get traded for sure and i am putting money on Westbrook being on this team by oct

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I'll take the other side of that bet. Westbrook is not joining the Wizards.