The Amazingly Sucky Flip Saunders Thread

[hands11]

Well, after two back to back games against the Busks, we can clearly see this team isn't ready to play against Scott style aggressive defensive teams. This just reminded me of how we looked playing Chicago in the past. Surprise Surprise. Scott was coaching that team also. So the obvious statement is.. We will likely see more of the same until we make an adjustment. Teams that can do that same..will. The formula is out there. Flip would love to have our boys playing that kind of D also, I just don't know if we have the players established to do it right now.

As for Flips offensive system being predictable I don't know. I would rather have an offense built on standard plays like pick and rolls over something so complicated as EGs offense that took 3 years to learn. At least Flips system is build on basic sound fundamental plays. I think it is more conducive to teaching our younger players how to play solid pro style ball. But the key with any coach is to mold it to the talent you have when needed. He has to balance molding the player to the offense with molding the offensive to the players. That is a tough thing to figure out on the fly. At one level you try to mold Foye then you get a new player like Livingston coming off injuries and you have to work him in. Then at some point you may decide to change your line up based on the new players available. We just have a lot of moving pieces. We are watching the sausage get made which is never pretty. But this is what we needed to do if we were going to rebuild. It's not about the wins right now, it's about the longer term success of the team. But any system should be more about the principles of the offense. He could tell them just go play but that might look ugly also. Bottom line, most teams need a true PG and we haven't had one in a long time.

But regardless of what system you implement, you aren't going to beat a team playing aggressive team defense without players who can take over based on pure talent and you need more than one of them. The Buck were just to much for us given the current make up of our team. Our current make up didn't allow up to break their D and we aren't playing the type of team D we needed to press them back like they were doing to us.

So here we are. We found Blatche. We are developing McGee. I think we are about done with the Foye as a starting PG experiment but we have Livingston in the wings. I think he needs a few more games under his belt before he will start or he will end up in the same place AT is right now. AT is sore from to many minutes so he is likely going to need to come off the bench for less minutes. So we make the adjustment and take it from there. Time to evaluate the next combination as we play out the season and get our lottery pick.

I think it would be unfair to be over critical of Flip given everything this team has been through this season. Sure if wish he would have done some things differently but overall, I'm glad he is here.

[closg00]

Insights from a Pistons fan.

We need the lose more than you guys, dlts20... at least you guys have some young big guys to build around. We need one of Favors/Couins/Whiteside.

Flips "system" sucks. It's basically seeing what the defense gives you and take whats available... which is mostly jumpers. It kinds worked for awhile here because out main three (four options) were Rip, Billups and Sheed(/Dice). But those jumpers became contested jumpers.. and then quick contested jumpers... and it was just a massive fail. It's why Billups/Sheed and Big Ben had problems with Flip. They had more success in 2006, with Billups basically running the offense and Ben running the defense... when Flip tried to interfere... egos got in the way.

Flip also has no good out of timeout plays and can't seem to make in-game adjustments. He really seems to be an NBA coach because of KG. KG carried those Timberwolves teams and then he inherited a EC powerhouse... which he brought down with his "coaching". Now he's not really doing much in Washington... even before the suspensions. I thought he was a great hire for the Pistons in 2005.... but man was I way off.

Good luck to you guys.

[hands11]

I cast a vote of Flip sucking as a head coach against DET tonight.

Nick played two really nice game so Flip ices him tonight.

Everything runs better with Livingston in the game, so Flip waits till its a blow out in the forth before he puts him in. Livingston 8 minutes 4 assists. Boykins 19 minutes 2 assists 0-3 4 pts.

[Hoopalotta]

Here's something....

Back in his former stomping grounds, Saunders was asked about how difficult this season has been and provided an interesting answer. "I've had a lot of fun the last two weeks," he said. "With our young players, to see how Andray [Blatche], how JaVale are improving and they've improved by leaps in bounds. That's something we can hang our hat on, knowing that we're going to have Gilbert [Arenas]. We're going to have draft picks and we're going to have a lot of cash. We're going to have the ability to change this team drastically. What we're tyring to do now is see what we have now. The decisions we have to make this offseason are as big a decisions that we've made in a long time."

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/wizard ... rdsinsider

[closg00]

McGee certainly deserves to be called-out for last nights performance. Then-again Jason Maxiell abused Brendan Haywood often also.

The problem with Flip is the SELECTIVE criticism of his players, he reserves his verbal barbs EXCLUSIVELY for his young players. Can anyone recall Flip calling-out DeShawn Stevens, Mike Miller, or Caron Butler for putrid play?

[montestewart]

McGee certainly deserves to be called-out for last nights performance. Then-again Jason Maxiell abused Brendan Haywood often also.

The problem with Flip is the SELECTIVE criticism of his players, he reserves his verbal barbs EXCLUSIVELY for his young players. Can anyone recall Flip calling-out DeShawn Stevens, Mike Miller, or Caron Butler for putrid play?

On the one hand, I agree, and can't recall too much of such criticism, although pulling the starters in the Philadelphia game and saying jamison and Butler couldn't guard the coach is a pretty public calling out. Still, I recall that successful coaches such as Phil Jackson reserve greater criticism for young players making the same mistakes as veterans. Maybe they just see veterans as more set in their ways.

[hands11]

It's not an easy call. While I have liked some of Flips coaching I have not liked others. So I'm not all in for Flip but we could have done worst and we had. We had Eddie. Gard. Wes. At least Flip is a professional level coach who has won something. And the dude was caught a little flat footed. He thought he was coming to a vet team running for a title not a rebuild so not playing McGee early is understandable to some degree. The kid couldn't play a lick of D and he wasn't even hitting the weights to get stronger. As for the Dray issue, he was trying to keep him in his roll as a first off the bench player. I disagreed but I understand what he was doing. I will always regret not being able to see Haywood and Dray with CB or AJ at the 3 and one coming off the bench. I thought we could make some noise like that.

As for McGee. I don't know the kid personally. He does have a ton of talent but like Dray, he hadn't done all the work he could have been doing. Well Dray finally put in a good summer of work and he now hits the weights regularly. Dray even admitted it is only know that he is hearing some of the words of advice that AJ was giving him. Now we see a growing Dray who is not only tall but he often looks like one of the biggest dudes on the court. You can still see some of his youngness but he looks more vet than talented potential young knucklehead kid.. i.e McGee

But now I hear McGee is hitting the weights with Dray. That's good. But McGee sadly was brought to a team coach buy no D EJ and focused on a Big 3 ( not a team ) and with other goofballs like Gil, DS, Dray at the time, and Nick Noodles.

It's been a long road turning this franchise around and as I said a long long time ago - even when he were making it to the playoffs - this wasn't going to happen quickly. When MJ got here the inmates were running the show. Even Haywood was a big baby back then. And say what you will about all the reasons MJ got back on the court but it was clear these guys didn't know how to play the game with heart and even as old as MJ was, he did do that.

With Abe picking EJ we only delayed the process of turning things around by several years and today we are still paying the price and trying to recover and undo some of that mistake. Said it then and stand by it. EJ was fools gold and I truly believe just kicked the can down the road by not being harder on his players, specially Gil. Gil was coddled and allowed to get out of hand by EJ who wasn't a leader as much as he road Gil, CB and AJs coat tails. But again, I can see why he did it because it was in his best interest to stick around that way as long as possible so he would make it into the established coaching franchise so he could get another gig which he did $$$$. But now that he is being considered to be let go from Phili after only one year, that may be coming to an end. But smartly for EJ, he is set for life with millions in the bank. And while he may not get another head coaching job, he will like be considered for what he is, an assistant.

So back to Flip and McGee. Sure McGee needed more playing time to develop but he also needed to show the extra effort and signs of maturing to earn it over other players. I would personally have handled him and Dray differently but motivating is a funny thing. Some need modivated to put in more work. Gil didn't need that. He put in the work. Gil needed something else. Part love and acceptance and part a firm hand so that he put team first and tuned his game. Feeding the Agent Zero ego was exactly the wrong thing to do. Leaving Gil at PG was just as stupid.

McGee I think needs motivated in part to help him see he needed to put in the work and that just being a freak athlete isn't enough at this level. Do you want to be good, or great? Look at Howard. Same deal. He could coast on physical talent, but he would never be great unless he put in the work and he has an old school player in Ewing helping him. From what I hear, even Ewing doesn't always get through to him. But you can see Howard's post moves developing. What's still missing is a dominate court presence on a consistent basic.

McGee is a young freak 7-0 pr 7-1 talented kid with two parents that played the game and appears to be a mommas boy ie codded. It would be easy to see him to thinking he can just get by on his freak physical skills and pedigree. Add to that he got his start with no D EJ so his ship needs to get steered in a different direction. His upside is to great to delay him getting what he needs to do to get there. Sure he needs some minutes and some positive reinforcement, but he also needs his head cracked some so the light goes on. Your not great yet young man.

I was watching a little old school Redskins thing and the players were talking about Vince Lombardi. Dude was a hard sss. Called them scumbags. He was hard to please. He turned a disorganized franchise around. They said he would never tolerate the way some players are today. Now I know times have changed and you can't deal with players like you used to because of the CPA and the money they make, but there is gray between being a hard sss and letting them get away with way to much EFJ. Specially with young players that need molded.

So while I don't like everything Flip does, I'd rather have a Flip than and EFJ. I'd rather have Scott Skiles or Avery getting in their rsses and calling time outs after 2 minutes of the game because they are playing like high-schooler on the black top.

A half a session isn't enough to ease all the dysfunctionalness that has happened here. It isn't enough to erase EFJ. Then add that Flip started the season with a totally different mission. He was coaching a team of vets. A team that was trying to bring ego head flacky Gil back into the fold. A team that has seen lost all four of those vets and had it biggest paid player bring guns into the locker. One that lost two PG ( if you call either of them that ) in the process. A team that lost it's vet top 5 center. Then lost one of biggest vet talent they got in the trade to a MCL. A team that is now rotating in and out D Leaguers.

Hate on Flip if you want, but walk a mile in someones shoes or at least be fair is evaluating what that might look like. This team with all that I just described almost almost beat Boston and Atlanta in recent days. And with Howard, they did beat Denver. Dray is looking like an All Star next year and McGee is showing signs of progress. And those two are the main things that matter to this team.

So with this team having been though all it has this year, Flip has been throw a lot and he still has them playing most nights and the team has some sense of organization. They haven't folded and they are still fighting to get better. We could have done a lot worst then having Flip around while all this happened and the guy deserves some flack from the critics. He has handled a ton this year.

[hands11]

McGee certainly deserves to be called-out for last nights performance. Then-again Jason Maxiell abused Brendan Haywood often also.

The problem with Flip is the SELECTIVE criticism of his players, he reserves his verbal barbs EXCLUSIVELY for his young players. Can anyone recall Flip calling-out DeShawn Stevens, Mike Miller, or Caron Butler for putrid play?

On the one hand, I agree, and can't recall too much of such criticism, although pulling the starters in the Philadelphia game and saying jamison and Butler couldn't guard the coach is a pretty public calling out. Still, I recall that successful coaches such as Phil Jackson reserve greater criticism for young players making the same mistakes as veterans. Maybe they just see veterans as more set in their ways.

True. He said that after the trades. CB and AJ just were to set in their ways. Now a coach like Phil seems to have a way of reaching players like that but then again, Phil is one of the best ever at doing it.

[hands11]

bump

[closg00]

bump

What happened, I didn't see the game.

[nate33]

bump

What happened, I didn't see the game.

Our lineup featuring an injured Blatche plus a bunch of scrubs who wouldn't start on any winning team lost on the road to the most talented team in the league. Yeah, Flip sucks.

[hands11]

There is nothing left for us to do this reason except evaluate and develop the player we think we may keep.

The bump was because it made Zero sense waiting until the 4th quarter to put Gee in.

The pattern for Gee leading up to this game was more minutes and getting in the game earlier and earlier. The kid has been extremely efficient and have produced. Then, out of no where and for no reason I can think of, Flip waits until the 4th quarter way after we got down by 20 to put him in and played him only 7 minutes.

So what did we get out of this game.

Well, at least we found Nicks roll. If your down by 20-25 and you want to make a come back, put Nick in with the green light to shoot. That seems to be when he produce best. Low pressure. Green light. Playing against their back ups.

Dray started by forcing his game and then settled down some. Made a nice power baseline move or two. Finally took Gastol outside and sank a few shots from range.

Singleton is a beast. Ruffin/CB combination. Dude was covering Gastol as one point and pounding him pretty good.

Livingston can dunk. That was a sweet move. He also made a couple nice outside shots.

So it wasn't a total waste of a game but I thought Flip missed the opportunity to let Gee develop more. He should have started in my book. You already know what you have in MM.

Since there wasn't a Flip missed an opprotunity thread, I bumped this one.

[hands11]

bump

What happened, I didn't see the game.

Our lineup featuring an injured Blatche plus a bunch of scrubs who wouldn't start on any winning team lost on the road to the most talented team in the league. Yeah, Flip sucks.

How about just a line up of scrubs with no Dray..because Flip played him 7 minutes in an over time game where two players AT and McGee foul out and then you get crushed in OT.

You were saying ?

[miller31time]

How about just a line up of scrubs with no Dray..because Flip played him 7 minutes in an over time game where two players AT and McGee foul out and then you get crushed in OT.

You were saying ?

Because Blatche was being an idiot and not listening to the coaching staff after they walked up to him and tried to talk to him after he was benched early on. He even said he didn't want to go back in. When players act like they're more important than the team, they don't play. It's that simple.

[hands11]

How about just a line up of scrubs with no Dray..because Flip played him 7 minutes in an over time game where two players AT and McGee foul out and then you get crushed in OT.

You were saying ?

Because Blatche was being an idiot and not listening to the coaching staff after they walked up to him and tried to talk to him after he was benched early on. He even said he didn't want to go back in. When players act like they're more important than the team, they don't play. It's that simple.

Ok, what the hell is going on here ? I'll be honest. I had a bad feeling this was going to be something big. I was just kind of tongue and cheeking my reply to your post. I kind of figured they had words or Flip wouldn't have been so extreme. It would have been on thing to sit him till halftime, but the whole game and then into overtime with two players out. Ouch..

Well, this be interesting. Gil was never put in his place by EJ. Looks like there is a new sheriff in town. I'm disappointed in a major way by Dray. Come on young buck. I know it has been a tough season but don't do this.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/co ... 04436.html

To make matters worse, Wizards Coach Flip Saunders benched starting forward Andray Blatche after he played just 7 minutes 31 seconds. Saunders said he pulled Blatche initially to discuss the player not getting back on defense but that Blatche refused to listen to the coaching staff.

Saunders said his assistants attempted to talk to Blatche about the situation multiple times but that Blatche's response was "he just didn't want to play."

"I'm disappointed. I'm the most disappointed I've ever been in 15 years with a player," Saunders said. "Most disappointed."

Blatche, who was unavailable to comment after the game

"Fifteen years, I've never seen anything like it, never," Saunders said. "He can be pissed at me or whatever, but you never leave your teammates hanging out to dry like that, no matter what, especially when you've lost 11 games in a row and you've got a chance to win a game. Uncalled for. We'll deal with it."

----

Crap... So what is the right thing to do ?

I guess it will depend on how Dray handles himself. He has some repair work to do with his teammates and coaches and little time to do it. If he doesn't, I would expect him to be suspended for tomorrows game.

[Hoopalotta]

Crap... So what is the right thing to do ?

[closg00]

Blatche was an ass and deserved to be benched, perhaps he could no-longer be a pro and go out there and earn his money when his team is in on a horrible losing-streak, but this is where Flip crossed the line AGAIN.

"You know what I'm disappointed in?" Saunders said. "I'm disappointed that since we've started him, he gets 60 percent of the offense run through him. Coaches aren't wrong, no matter what. When a coach wants to teach you something, and you think you're above that, because you've played 16 games, good games? I had Kevin Garnett, that guy you could say one thing, he's up there, 'What do you want, Coach? I want to get better every time.' He never copped that type of attitude. That's ridiculous, it really is."

Saunders also said Blatche has lost the credibility of his teammates.

Flip is the bigger ass IMO, going back to the Kevin Garnett comparison (major sore point) and disrespecting Andray yet-again by telling the media that Blatche had "lost the credibility of his teammates" Flip lashing-out and choosing his words poorly. I fear for the in-coming group of young draft picks with Flip as coach.

[nate33]

Flip is the bigger ass IMO, going back to the Kevin Garnett comparison (major sore point) and disrespecting Andray yet-again by telling the media that Blatche had "lost the credibility of his teammates" Flip lashing-out and choosing his words poorly. I fear for the in-coming group of young draft picks with Flip as coach.

Man closg00, Flip can do no right in your eyes.

Blatche refused to listen to his coach and he refused to go back in the game, and you are blaming Flip?

[dlts20]

Why dont you guys wait until you hear both sides of the story? It could be that Blatche has a bad ankle but gets benched for not getting back quick enough when you know he's hurt, after he's been carrying the team? He might just be sick of Flip.

Dont automatically take Flip's side. He's been a jerk alot this year and I think Blatche is tired of it. Blatche loves to play and put up big numbers so I have a hard time believeing that he's just going to lose it for no real reason. Wait until we here his side. Blatche is probably also upset that guys like Jamison were the worst defenders and biggest ball hogs in the league but never get benched and always get praised yet Flip constantly rips on Dray, takes KG's side over him, and now this.

==============================


Here is what a Wiz fan who was at the game said:



I was at the game and here is what I saw: The exchange between Flip and 'Dray happened during a timeout. As the other coaches waited for Flip to join them, Flip was talking with 'Dray and obviously telling him that he wanted him to do something other than what 'Dray was doing. 'Dray appeared to be trying to explain why whatever Flip wanted done was either not possible, or at least difficult. They finished the discussion. It didn't apear to have ever become heated. Flip joined the coaches; 'Dray joined his teammates. When the timeout ended, 'Dray went back onto the court. A few minutes later he was replaced by Singleton. I can't believe that Flip would have allowed 'Dray to go back into the game after the timeout if 'Dray had told him he didn't want to play during their discussion. After 'Dray came out of the game, I didn't see any other coaches approach 'Dray, but that's not to say that that didn't happen.

A couple of things:

As a coach I can't imagine a player telling me that he didn't want to play, and my players were amateurs. I certainly can't imagine a professional basketball player saying that he doesn't want to play. Of course he wants to play. It's what he does. It's how he earns his living. He "played" basketball most of his life and now someone is paying him big $ to do what he always wanted to do. The issue is not that he doesn't want to play, it's that he doesn't feel that he can play the way the coach wants him to play. However, someone has to be in charge of those 12-15 super athletes with the big egos. That someone is the coach. So, regardless of what actually transpired, the player is wrong, and the player is the loser. The coach has the bully pulpit. If 'Dray is smart, we'll never hear his side of it.

More importantly: a good coach would not be discipling his team by calling-out players to the press (which Flip does all the time), or by making his point during a game (yanking guys after single mistakes). Those are the types of issues that are addressed and resolved during practice or, at least, when the team is not playing, but certainly not during a game. It appears to me that Flip's ego is greater than the sum of the parts of the entire teams' ego. He said that 'Dray let his teammates down. I say that Flip let the entire organization, team, and loyal fan base down with a monumental display of ego in his attempt to demonstrate that he is in charge.

I've been critical of Flip for a few months now for being, IMHO, devoid of any creative offensive schemes. I believe that he tries to mold the players into his offensive scheme rather than developing (as he said he would) an offense that places the players in the best position to succeed. I believe that Flip has demonstrated that he is technically inadequate. I don't care that he has been coaching for 15 years. Fifteen years of making the same mistakes doesn't make you any good at what you're doing. There are very good reasons why coaches are replaced. Flip's behavior tonight could be counted among those reasons.

[Silvie Lysandra]

EDIT: oh **** lol really? So did Flip lie??? If so, throw him out on the league. If he lied about a player not wanting to play in order, to cover his own ass, he shouldn't be coaching AAU.