The Official Yi Jianlian Shrine

[doclinkin]

I always figured the Washington Redskins should change their name to the Washington Rednecks, with appropriate alterations to the logo on the side of the helmet. Pretty sure nobody would mind all that much, would be pretty odd singing 'hail to the rednecks' but other than that they'd still sell out every game, sell a ton of gear.

Either that or the Washington Greenbacks, honoring the teams money-grubbing habits. Just change the logo to the George Washington portrait on the side of your 25 cent piece, change the colors to green and grey.

[montestewart]

I always figured the Washington Redskins should change their name to the Washington Rednecks, with appropriate alterations to the logo on the side of the helmet. Pretty sure nobody would mind all that much, would be pretty odd singing 'hail to the rednecks' but other than that they'd still sell out every game, sell a ton of gear.

Either that or the Washington Greenbacks, honoring the teams money-grubbing habits. Just change the logo to the George Washington portrait on the side of your 25 cent piece, change the colors to green and grey.

They could just keep the name and change the mascot to a red skin potato. "Skins mashed," etc.

[long suffrin' boulez fan]

I always figured the Washington Redskins should change their name to the Washington Rednecks, with appropriate alterations to the logo on the side of the helmet.

Why bother with helmets... just have the players sport mullets (with the balding ones wearing scullets).

Wait a second, "mullets," "scullets." Just imagine those names on the front of a certain basketball teams' jerseys with the l's made to look like hands and a ball over top of them.

[bigbreakfast]

Nate -- it's not the word itself that's offensive, as opposed to the connotation and use over the years. "Chinaman" has been used as a derogatory term for "a man from China" so to speak, so the word has developed a negative connotation.

For example, calling an African person from the bush a "bushman" would probably be offensive to that person. It's all about the historical use of the word, not it's literal use.

Thanks for the response, but it still doesn't quite explain it for me. I don't think the term "bushman" is analogous because being "from the bush" implies that you are some kind of primitive savage, which is clearly insulting.

It seems like the only explanation is that because there was once a Western bias against individuals from China (as Hoopalotta points out with his Opium Wars/Yellow Peril history lesson), that we are all therefore racists whenever we point out that a person in fact comes from the geographical region known as China. But wouldn't that make the term "African American" derogatory? Also, would I be derogatory if I call someone "Chinese"?

The term chinaman is not inherently offensive, it's the connotations that come with it. Historically it's been used in a derogatory and demeaning way towards Chinese and Asians, it's a word associated with bigotry, hate, and violence. Kinda like how the word "boy" itself isn't inherently offensive, but when used by certain ppl in certain situations with certain intonations, it can be offensive.

[hebrewhammer]

Forgive me for my ignorance, but why exactly is the term "Chinaman" an ethnic slur? Is it really any different than calling a Canadian a "Canuck", or an Australian an "Aussie"? Is associating a person with their land of origin now considered an insult?

I'm not trying to start an argument, I honestly don't understand. Maybe there's some historical use of the word that has negative connotations. I'm not aware of any, but then again, I'm not Asian. (Can I say "Asian"?)

I'm not trying to offend anybody, but good grief, it's so hard not to offend people these days.

You are ignorant. I hope that isn't offensive good grief, but it's hard to know these days what to call people who through lack of education, inferior parenting or simply stupider-than-normal intellect are ignorant of basic information.

Chinaman is offensive because it's a slur. There's really no more information that you need beyond that, unless you're trying to pick a fight. Why is nig ger offensive? Why is f a g offensive? It's like asking, "why does 'up' mean up if you stand on your head it's actually down?" What are you 5 years old? Convention and usage determines the definition of a word. The adjective for a person from China or a person of Chinese descent is "Chinese." A slur for a person from China or a person of Chinese descent is "chink" or "chinaman." It's always been convention to use the words like this, why would we change it now?

It's also pretty puzzling why you keep talking about "these days" or "now" as if all of the sudden you're being oppressed because you can't write slurs on the Internet without being called on it. Chinaman has been a slur for over 150 years, at least since the first Gold Rush in 1849. My question to you is, by what means did you get your immortality? Since you must be a god who's been living for 2000 years if 150+ years seems like a new development.

It makes me laugh, it's like that Seinfeld episode where George gets fired for having sex with the cleaning lady: "I didn't realize that was frowned upon" "nothing was in my contract about that." If you're not a complete asshat who doesn't wipe his ass and eat with his hands... in other words socialized for human cohabitation.. it really shouldn't be that hard to understand.

Thanks for the response, but it still doesn't quite explain it for me. I don't think the term "bushman" is analogous because being "from the bush" implies that you are some kind of primitive savage, which is clearly insulting.

I suggest that you apply your own self-imposed criteria instead of a hypocritical one. Using your own semantic criteria bushman literally means "from the bush" just as Chinaman means "from China" if "from the geographic region of China" isn't offensive why would "from the geographic region of the bush" be offensive? And who says there's a negative connotation of "bush?" That would only be the case if you had a racist-Western centric view of life where running around in a loincloth hunting small animals with spears and bows is somehow inferior than living in a society that has developed philosophy, art, mathematics, science, and customs, such as looking down on morons who use slurs.

[Ruzious]

Forgive me for my ignorance, but why exactly is the term "Chinaman" an ethnic slur? Is it really any different than calling a Canadian a "Canuck", or an Australian an "Aussie"? Is associating a person with their land of origin now considered an insult?

I'm not trying to start an argument, I honestly don't understand. Maybe there's some historical use of the word that has negative connotations. I'm not aware of any, but then again, I'm not Asian. (Can I say "Asian"?)

I'm not trying to offend anybody, but good grief, it's so hard not to offend people these days.

You are ignorant. I hope that isn't offensive good grief, but it's hard to know these days what to call people who through lack of education, inferior parenting or simply stupider-than-normal intellect are ignorant of basic information.

Chinaman is offensive because it's a slur. There's really no more information that you need beyond that, unless you're trying to pick a fight. Why is nig ger offensive? Why is f a g offensive? It's like asking, "why does 'up' mean up if you stand on your head it's actually down?" What are you 5 years old? Convention and usage determines the definition of a word. The adjective for a person from China or a person of Chinese descent is "Chinese." A slur for a person from China or a person of Chinese descent is "chink" or "chinaman." It's always been convention to use the words like this, why would we change it now?

It's also pretty puzzling why you keep talking about "these days" or "now" as if all of the sudden you're being oppressed because you can't write slurs on the Internet without being called on it. Chinaman has been a slur for over 150 years, at least since the first Gold Rush in 1849. My question to you is, by what means did you get your immortality? Since you must be a god who's been living for 2000 years if 150+ years seems like a new development.

It makes me laugh, it's like that Seinfeld episode where George gets fired for having sex with the cleaning lady: "I didn't realize that was frowned upon" "nothing was in my contract about that." If you're not a complete asshat who doesn't wipe his ass and eat with his hands... in other words socialized for human cohabitation.. it really shouldn't be that hard to understand.

Thanks for the response, but it still doesn't quite explain it for me. I don't think the term "bushman" is analogous because being "from the bush" implies that you are some kind of primitive savage, which is clearly insulting.

I suggest that you apply your own self-imposed criteria instead of a hypocritical one. Using your own semantic criteria bushman literally means "from the bush" just as Chinaman means "from China" if "from the geographic region of China" isn't offensive why would "from the geographic region of the bush" be offensive? And who says there's a negative connotation of "bush?" That would only be the case if you had a racist-Western centric view of life where running around in a loincloth hunting small animals with spears and bows is somehow inferior than living in a society that has developed philosophy, art, mathematics, science, and customs, such as looking down on morons who use slurs.

If that was supposed to be informative, it was an epic fail. If it was supposed to come off as ironically arrogant - considering your username, success has been achieved.

See the post before yours for a good answer.

[Hoopalotta]

Despite the detour, I'm quite confident that this thread will shortly be back on track as a genuine buoy to the emotional wellness of each and every one of us. Thus is the will of Yi.

Anyway, it should be noted that the historical racism against Chinese (amongst others) is not particularly well remembered these days, so it's not obvious in the same way as some of those other examples. As it so happens, all that's probably doubly true in Washington D.C. and it's just a few generations removed from being timely now, so it shouldn't be shocking that term is not well understood.

For example, there were waves of immigrants from Eastern Europe in the late 19th and early 20th centuries and there were certainly slurs against Slavs and Russians and so on as they settled in tight communities back east. But, I would be pretty surprised if anyone here (myself included) could name the particular pejoratives used. Or think of the term 'paddy wagon', i.e. the cart used to drag in the drunken Irishmen (well, and see we can say "Irishmen" without any worries, even the Real Gm spell checker like it). Nobody really thinks about it like that today. I doubt many people remember that "Guinea" was once a slur too.

[YiOF]

EVERY SINGLE ASIAN person who has basic command of the English language would be offended if he or she being called a "Chinaman" today. That's all there is to be said on this issue.

Being ignorant is one thing, and perhaps more forgivable. but trying to justify the ignorance is what I considered to be racism.

Anyway, it should be noted that the historical racism against Chinese (amongst others) is not particularly well remembered these days, so it's not obvious in the same way as some of those other examples. As it so happens, all that's probably doubly true in Washington D.C. and it's just a few generations removed from being timely now, so it shouldn't be shocking that term is not well understood.

Let me just correct you here. what you should've said is that historical racism against Chinese (amongst others) is not particularly well remembered these days BY WHITE PEOPLE.....

Seems like it is a hell of a lot easier for the perpetrators to forget than the victims do. I can understand a lot of the white folks of younger generation don't think it is fair that they have to bare the burden of crimes that were committed by the older generations, unfortunately that's how things work. Hitler started WWII, but it is the German people and the younger generation who had to pay off their war debt.

As on all other forums, I see more more people trying to justify their wrong doings rather than sincere apologies.

[Illuminaire]

Let me just correct you here. what you should've said is that historical racism against Chinese (amongst others) is not particularly well remembered these days BY WHITE PEOPLE.....

.... and black people, and hispanic people, and basically all people of non-Asian descent. Please do not single out "white people" as a great evil because North American culture as a whole has not properly remembered a societal crime - though it has gone a long way in correcting it.

I'm not saying that to in any way justify racism of any kind. I a strong proponent of the equality of races and the beauty of diversity. I believe wholeheartedly that all people are created in the image of God, and therefore granted an intrinsic value and worth that goes far deeper than phenotype. I also love experiencing new cultures, and while I may believe certain cultures (definitely including my own!) have specific flaws, firmly believe that no one can claim superiority based on cultural practices.

What I am saying is that it is deeply hypocritical to decry racism by painting "white people" as inherently guilty, but not holding any other culture or race up to the same standard. Racism, in forms passive and violent, has been a dominant force in history across almost all people groups in almost all places. I think it is painfully shortsighted, and even counter-productive, to cast stones so eagerly - for any of us.

[Wizards2Lottery]

This Shrine needs more worship and less arguing.

[pineappleheadindc]

Uh...okay. Here are your choices, guys:

1) We can move the discussion to another thread.

2) We can move on and use this thread for Yi-worship.

What do you'all think?

[doclinkin]

I still vote for an Official Wizboard 'Racism' Thread. That way we can say 'take it to the racism thread' and let people hash out their cultural sensitivities there.

[nate33]

I composed a long response to my new friend hebrewhammer but decided to let this tangent die.

I predict Yi will have a triple double tonight against Atlanta. All hail Yi!

[Hoopalotta]

Spare me the 'perpetrators' bit, YIOF. I live in a ethnically and culturally homogeneous country that borders China, so let's not pretend that a bunch of Caucasians being of a closed minded bent in the 1880's is some kind of shocking, atypical anomaly scandalizing the corridors of history. Here in Vietnam, there's no concept of an exclusion act as there's not much of a concept of immigration, but as it so happens, my Visa is temporary and there is a term which translates as "dirty white foreigner with a backpack" in the lexicon. I am not expecting future generations to grieve over that.

And, having a degree in History, I am already quite aware that any ethnic group that has endured an unfortunate experience is the keeper of the flame as far as the historical record is concerned. Thanks for the refresher. Yes, I know not to say “Chinaman”, but I also know that anti-malarial prophylactics fashioned from Peruvian tree bark facilitated a second wave of European colonization in the late 19th century, as well as a host of other near useless bits of trivia that I don't expect to find in the quick draw holsters of random individuals. Not everyone is going to know about "Chinamen". Deal with it.

More than anything, I'm quite sure that severe hand wringing in the interests of concocting some ethical paradigm of harmonious interrelations is going to inevitably be besmeared by a few lapses here and there. But at this moment, I'm well satisfied to be surrounded by cheerful South East Asians who shamelessly delve into their biases without apology. There's a certain honesty there and it's refreshing.

Anyway, here's to Yi and here's to China.

We're back on track, baby.

[Illuminaire]

Sorry, I forgot:

When we first picked up Yi, I thought we had just set four million dollars in cap space on fire. It turns out the only thing on fire is Yi's strange new willingness to grab rebounds. Go Yi, wooooo!

[Hoopalotta]

Let me just correct you here. what you should've said is that historical racism against Chinese (amongst others) is not particularly well remembered these days BY WHITE PEOPLE.....

.... and black people, and hispanic people, and basically all people of non-Asian descent. Please do not single out "white people" as a great evil because North American culture as a whole has not properly remembered a societal crime - though it has gone a long way in correcting it.

Yeah, I was going to go there too actually, but then I forgot. Another inconsistency straying the Utopian bullseye! The point isn't to decry YiOF here, but rather to point out the difficulties in expecting perfection. It's just how it is.

[Gang of Four]

Forgive me for my ignorance, but why exactly is the term "Chinaman" an ethnic slur? Is it really any different than calling a Canadian a "Canuck", or an Australian an "Aussie"? Is associating a person with their land of origin now considered an insult?

Calling someone Chinese person a Chinaman is like calling a Canadian a "Canadaman" or an Australian an "Australiaman". Why do even need to ask. It is recognized as racial slur, so don't say it, it's simple as that. The reasons don't matter. Belittling people's objections to recognized racial slur just shows that you are racist, that's all.

[Zonkerbl]

Yi will start tonight with Blatche and McGee, sweet! Looking forward to that, my IDOL has been playing very well lately.

Yay basketball!

[fishercob]

I'd just like to say that I hate all races, ethnicities, and religions equally.

Nate, I love you and I know you meant no harm. It does strike me that many of those who have voiced strong objections to your comment don't seem to be regulars here (or haven't been for that long). So they don't have the benefit of knowing you for upwards of half a decade, and haven't read literally thousands of your well reasoned posts on basketball, politics, being a dad, etc.

It's a reminder that though we often feel like we're "among friends" there are always folks listening in who don't know us as well and who could take things in a way they weren't intended. At the same time, they don't explain that something may be offensive to you in a way that a friend would. So we can all learn and do better, I suppose.

But that brings me back to why I love basketball, the Wizards and Ted. I love how sports bring people together -- how people who may think that they have little in common otherwise can bond over their mutual love of the home team. The fact that basketball has become so international drives this home even more.

We're all in this, together Wiz fans (except Dat who hates white people -- KIDDING )

All praise Yi.

Move along.

[CarMalone]

Forgive me for my ignorance, but why exactly is the term "Chinaman" an ethnic slur? Is it really any different than calling a Canadian a "Canuck", or an Australian an "Aussie"? Is associating a person with their land of origin now considered an insult?

Calling someone Chinese person a Chinaman is like calling a Canadian a "Canadaman" or an Australian an "Australiaman". Why do even need to ask. It is recognized as racial slur, so don't say it, it's simple as that. The reasons don't matter. Belittling people's objections to recognized racial slur just shows that you are racist, that's all.

The term "Chinaman" is associated with white mob violence. People associate lynching with African-Americans during the Reconstruction era but the Chinese were another group that also faced such violence. It wasn't uncommon for innocent Chinese workers to be lynched by white mobs during the 1800's in Western US and even several Chinatowns were burned.

Some examples:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_riot_of_1886
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Issaquah_riot_of_1885

Let's not forget the fact that the Chinese were the only group to be banned from entering the United States (see Chinese Exclusion Act).