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Political Roundtable - Part VI

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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#241 » by dckingsfan » Mon Nov 10, 2014 1:58 pm

popper wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:One more thing - it doesn't preclude carve-outs for certain crimes (date rape drugs, possession of stolen firearms) in the future.


I'm not trying to be disagreeable with you dckingsfan. If what I posted was inaccurate (that stealing guns or possessing date rape drugs will now be dealt with via a citation vs. arrest) then simply say so. Maybe you did but I'm too dense to have noticed. I did pick up from your previous post that a stolen gun would have to have a value of less that $950 to be covered under the new law. If this is correct, then as you posted, a carve out could (and should IMO) be enacted.


What I object to is the entire "tough on crime" agenda.

Politician one: I am tough on crime - we are going to put people away.
Politician two: I am tougher on crime - we will put the most people away.
Politician one: Ha - wimp. I am going to incarcerate an entire generation.
Politician two: Really, I am going to incarcerate them and put them 4 to a cell.

And it starts with the BS that you posted. It took the citizens of CA to implement the reform - the Ds and Rs were too afraid of the nuclear war they started to even suggest that the system needed reform.

It is one of the stupidest things we have done in recent memory. And too many are sucked into the hyperbole...
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#242 » by Zonkerbl » Mon Nov 10, 2014 2:36 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:On a completely unrelated note, you should read this. Forget that Angela Davis is a world renowned black power activist who was an honorary member of the Black Panthers although she never joined because her beliefs about Communism conflicted fundamentally with Malcolm X's.

Angela Davis is a genius and you should read and respect what she has to say.

http://www.feministes-radicales.org/wp- ... solete.pdf


Apropos of the recent conversation about CA's "tough on crime" fiasco that contributed significantly to their near bankruptcy.

Read this.

The TL;DR summary is this: The idea of "penitentiaries" was an improvement on the English common law corporal punishments (cutting off thieves hands, burning people alive after torturing them). However the idea came around right after the Civil War and the southern states used it as an opportunity to turn their slave laws into prison laws - former slaves were rounded up for "running away" (not kidding folks!) and other silliness and their labor was used for major infrastructure projects in the south.

I've just gotten to the part where she's trying to prove the entire system is designed specifically to put minorities in jail. She cites the CA prison system EXTENSIVELY (basically during Reagan the prison capacity doubled) so very relevant to the conversation.

But what she's leading up to is that the entire prison system is essentially institutionalized racism and is obsolete and, like slavery, Jim Crow laws, and lynching (things that, at the time, people had difficulty imagining the world without these things) should be abolished. Entirely. She says we've been brainwashed by Hollywood into accepting the concept of the prison system as a fundamental part of our society and she challenges us to imagine a world without it.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#243 » by nate33 » Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:07 pm

Zonker, I don't have the time to read that, but I'm intrigued. What exactly does she propose that we do with people who steal, rape and murder?
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#244 » by Zonkerbl » Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:18 pm

nate33 wrote:Zonker, I don't have the time to read that, but I'm intrigued. What exactly does she propose that we do with people who steal, rape and murder?


I have the same question but haven't gotten that far.

One of those weird issues where the Communist and Libertarian arguments for something are pretty darn similar.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#245 » by Zonkerbl » Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:32 pm

"We live in an era of migrating corporations. In order to escape organized labor in this country-and thus
higher wages, benefits, and so on-corporations roam the world in search of nations providing cheap labor pools. This corporate migration thus leaves entire communities in shambles. Huge numbers of people lose jobs and prospects for future jobs. Because the economic base of these communities is destroyed, education and other surviving social services are profoundly affected. This process turns the men, women, and children who live in these damaged communities into perfect candidates for prison.

In the meantime, corporations associated with the punishment industry reap profits from the system that manages prisoners and acquire a clear stake in the continued growth of prison populations. Put simply, this is the era of the prison industrial complex. The prison has become a black hole into which the detritus of contemporary capitalism is deposited. Mass imprisonment generates profits as it devours social wealth, and thus it tends to reproduce the very conditions that lead people to prison."
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#246 » by dckingsfan » Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:42 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:"We live in an era of migrating corporations. In order to escape organized labor in this country-and thus
higher wages, benefits, and so on-corporations roam the world in search of nations providing cheap labor pools. This corporate migration thus leaves entire communities in shambles. Huge numbers of people lose jobs and prospects for future jobs. Because the economic base of these communities is destroyed, education and other surviving social services are profoundly affected. This process turns the men, women, and children who live in these damaged communities into perfect candidates for prison.

In the meantime, corporations associated with the punishment industry reap profits from the system that manages prisoners and acquire a clear stake in the continued growth of prison populations. Put simply, this is the era of the prison industrial complex. The prison has become a black hole into which the detritus of contemporary capitalism is deposited. Mass imprisonment generates profits as it devours social wealth, and thus it tends to reproduce the very conditions that lead people to prison."


I would say that she is right about the corporations that are associated with the punishment industry (see Poppers posting). But equally tied to both parties "tough on crime" election policies.

I would say she is wrong about the movement of industry. An educated population quickly recovers from the movement of corporations. I think the failure of educating our populations (ongoing) is also failure of government.

Case in point - more business fail (due to competition) that relocate by a large margin.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#247 » by Zonkerbl » Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:44 pm

On solitary confinement:
"In an often-quoted passage of his American Notes, Charles Dickens prefaced a description of his 1842 visit to Eastern Penitentiary with the observation that "the system here is rigid, strict, and hopeless solitary confinement. I believe it, in its effects, to be cruel and wrong."

Dickens continues:
"In its intention I am well convinced that it is kind, humane, and meant for reformation; but I am persuaded that those who devised this system of Prison Discipline, and those benevolent gentlemen who
carry it into execution, do not know what it is that they are doing. I believe that very few men are capable of estimating the immense amount of torture and agony that this dreadful punishment, prolonged for years, inflicts upon the sufferers . . . I am only the more convinced that there is a depth of terrible endurance in it which none but the sufferers themselves can fathom, and which no man has a right to inflict upon his fellow-ereature. I hold this slow and daily tampering with the mysteries of the brain to be immeasurably worse than any torture of the body . . . because its wounds are not upon the surface, and it extorts few cries that human ears can hear; therefore I the more denounce it, as a secret punishment which slumbering humanity is not roused up to stay." - End Dickens quote

"The current construction and expansion of state and federal super-maximum security prisons, whose putative purpose is to address disciplinary problems within the penal system, draws upon the historical conception of the penitentiary, then considered the most progressive form of punishment. Today African-Americans and Latinos are vastly overrepresented in these supermax prisons and control units, the first of which emerged when federal correctional authorities began to send prisoners housed throughout the system whom they deemed to be /I dangerous" to the federal prison in Marion, Illinois. In 1983! the entire prison was "locked down,'! which meant that prisoners were confined to their cells twenty-three hours a day. This lockdown became permanent, thus furnishing the general model for the control unit and supermax prison.49 Today, there are approximately 60 super-maximum security federal and state prisons located in thirty-six states and many more supermax units in virtually every state in the country.

A description of supermaxes in a 1997 Human Rights Watch report sounds chillingly like Dickens's description of Eastern State Penitentiary. What is different, however, is that all references to individual rehabilitation have disappeared."
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#248 » by Zonkerbl » Mon Nov 10, 2014 3:50 pm

"No one-not even the most ardent defenders of the supermax-would try to argue today that absolute segregation, including sensory deprivation, is restorative and healing. The prevailing justification for the supermax is that the horrors it creates are the perfect complement for the horrifying personalities deemed the worst of the worst by the prison system. In other words, there is no pretense that rights are respected, there is no concern for the individual, there is no sense that men and women incarcerated in super maxes deserve anything approaching respect and comfort."
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#249 » by Zonkerbl » Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:00 pm

Here we go Nate:
"What, then, would it mean to imagine a system in which punishment is not allowed to become the source of corporate profit? How can we imagine a society in which race and class are not primary determinants of punishment? Or one in which punishment itself is no longer the central concern in the making of justice? An abolitionist approach that seeks to answer questions such as these would require us to imagine a constellation of alternative strategies and institutions, with the ultimate aim of removing the prison from the social and ideological landscapes of our society. In other words, we would not be looking for prisonlike substitutes for the prison, such as house arrest safeguarded by electronic surveillance bracelets. Rather, positing decarceration as our overarching strategy, we would try to envision a continuum of alternatives to imprisonment-demilitarization of schools, revitalization of education at all levels, a health system that provides free physical and mental care to all, and a justice system based on reparation and reconciliation rather than retribution and vengeance."
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#250 » by Zonkerbl » Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:12 pm

"It is within this context that it makes sense to consider the decriminalization of drug use as a significant component of a larger strategy to simultaneously oppose structures of racism within the criminal justice system and further the abolitionist agenda of decarceration. Thus, with respect to the project of challenging the role played by the so-called War on Drugs in bringing huge numbers of people of color into the prison system, proposals to decriminalize drug use should be linked to the development of a constellation of free, community-
based programs accessible to all people who wish to tackle their drug problems. This is not to suggest that all people who use drugs-or that only people who use illicit drugs need such help. However, anyone, regardless of economic status, who wishes to conquer drug addiction should be able to enter treatment programs."

So basically she's saying take the stupid out of the prison system. Don't put people in jail for using drugs or prostitution. Don't make schools an assembly line for creating prisoners. Provide better care for the mentally ill. Address the root cause of the main problems that cause people to end up in jail and the need for prisons will start to wither away.

Now what do you do with murders and rapists?
"It is against the backdrop of these more broadly conceived abolitionist alternatives that it makes sense to take up the question of radical transformations within the existing justice system. Thus, aside from minimizing, through various strategies, the kinds of behaviors that will bring people into contact with the police and justice systems, there is the question of how to treat those who assault the rights and bodies of others. Many organizations and individuals both in the United States and other countries offer alternative modes of making justice. In limited instances, some governments have attempted to implement alternatives that range from conflict resolution to restorative or reparative justice. Such scholars as Herman Bianchi have suggested that crime needs to be defined in terms of tort and, instead of criminal law, should be reparative law. In his words, " [The lawbreaker] is thus no longer an evil-minded man or woman, but simply a debtor, a liable person whose human duty is to take responsibility for his or her acts, and to assume the duty of repair."

There is a growing body of literature on reshaping systems of justice around strategies of reparation, rather than retribution, as well as a growing body of experiential evidence of the advantages of these approaches to justice and of the democratic possibilities they promise. Instead of rehearsing the numerous debates that have emerged over the last decades-including the most persistent question, "What will happen to the murderers and rapists? "-I will conclude with a story of one of the most dramatic successes of these experiments in reconciliation. I refer to the case of Amy Biehl, the white Fulbright scholar from Newport Beach, California, who was killed by young South African men in Guguletu, a black township in Capetown, South Africa.

In 1 993, when South Africa was on the cusp of its transition, Amy Biehl was devoting a significant amount of her
time as a foreign student to the work of rebuilding South Africa. Nelson Mandela had been freed in 1 990, but had not yet been elected president. On August 25, Biehl was driving several black friends to their home in Guguletu when a crowd shouting antiwhite slogans confronted her, and some of them stoned and stabbed her to death. Four of the men participating in the attack were convicted of her murder and sentenced to eighteen years in prison. In 1 997, Linda and Peter Biehl-Amy's mother and father-decided to support the amnesty petition the men presented to the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. The four apologized to the Biehls and were released in July 1 998. Two of them-Easy Nofemela and Ntobeko Peni-Iater met with the Biehls, who, despite much pressure to the contrary, agreed to see them. 133 According to Nofemela, he wanted to say more
about his own sorrow for killing their daughter than what had been possible during Truth and Reconciliation hearings. "I know you lost a person you love, " he says he told them during that meeting. "I want you to forgive me and take me as your child."
The Biehls, who had established the Amy Biehl Foundation in the aftermath of their daughter's death, asked
Nofemela and Peni to work at the Guguletu branch of the foundation. Nofemela became an instructor in an afterschool sports program and Peni an administrator. In June 2002, they accompanied Linda Biehl to New York, where they all spoke before the American Family Therapy Academy on reconciliation and restorative justice. In a Boston Globe interview, Linda Biehl, when asked how she now feels about the men who killed her daughter, said, "I have a lot of love for them." After Peter Biehl died in 2002, she bought two plots of land for them in memory of her husband so that Nofemela and Peni can build their own homes. l35 A few days after the September 1 1 attacks, the Biehls had been asked to speak at a synagogue in their community. According to Peter Biehl, "We tried to explain that sometimes it pays to shut up and listen to what other people have to say, to ask: 'Why do these terrible things happen? ' instead of simply reacting. "
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#251 » by Zonkerbl » Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:18 pm

So basically eliminate the unnecessary redundancy of the criminal and civil court systems by eliminating the criminal court system entirely. We already have the solution in front of us, we just have to open our eyes and see it.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#252 » by popper » Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:30 pm

Obamacare Architect: Lack of Transparency Was Key Because ‘Stupidity Of The American Voter’ Would Have Killed Obamacare

Obamacare architect Jonathan Gruber said that lack of transparency was a major part of getting Obamacare passed because “the stupidity of the American voter” would have killed the law if more people knew what was in it.

Gruber, the MIT professor who served as a technical consultant to the Obama administration during Obamacare’s design, also made clear during a panel quietly captured on video that the individual mandate, which was only upheld by the Supreme Court because it was a tax, was not actually a tax.

“This bill was written in a tortured way to make sure CBO did not score the mandate as taxes. If CBO scored the mandate as taxes, the bill dies. Okay, so it’s written to do that. In terms of risk rated subsidies, if you had a law which said that healthy people are going to pay in – you made explicit healthy people pay in and sick people get money, it would not have passed…

Lack of transparency is a huge political advantage. And basically, call it the stupidity of the American voter or whatever, but basically that was really really critical for the thing to pass… Look, I wish Mark was right that we could make it all transparent, but I’d rather have this law than not.”

http://dailycaller.com/2014/11/09/obama ... obamacare/
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#253 » by Zonkerbl » Mon Nov 10, 2014 4:30 pm

Hm. She never makes a really ironclad case that the prison system is institutionalized racism. That's disappointing.

She makes some interesting points about the prison system in the south but what about the rest of the country?
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#254 » by dckingsfan » Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:02 pm

[quote="nate33"]for nate[quote]

http://dailyme.com/story/2014110900001862
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#255 » by dckingsfan » Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:04 pm

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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#256 » by dckingsfan » Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:07 pm

dobrojim wrote:
pineappleheadindc wrote:
nate33 wrote:A timely article from Matt Taibbi on the corruption of the banks and the plight of whistleblower Alayne Fleischmann:




This is a compelling read. And makes me really angry at Holder and the DOJ.

Grrrr.


Huge And1. The little folks who got liar loans would have been laughed out of the mortgage
company offices if they weren't providing the perfect fodder for fraud on a scale orders
of magnitude worse than what they themselves were committing.

I would love to see the DoJ officials who have overseen this to date be somehow
charged criminally.

The Frontline episode from 1-2 years ago on this was also compelling and told
basically the same story. The crooks are so rife with their ill-gotten gains they
can buy off the threat of any enforcement.


And just to pile on:
http://online.wsj.com/articles/another- ... 1415577485
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#257 » by Zonkerbl » Mon Nov 10, 2014 5:12 pm

dckingsfan wrote:To our incarceration thread...

http://online.wsj.com/articles/greg-ber ... 1415574093


Can't read, paywall.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#258 » by nate33 » Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:04 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:So basically eliminate the unnecessary redundancy of the criminal and civil court systems by eliminating the criminal court system entirely. We already have the solution in front of us, we just have to open our eyes and see it.

Her entire argument is rubbish. She ducks the question completely. The anecdote about the South Africa scenario isn't a solution. What? Is she going to simply hope that all the murderers and rapists will simply volunteer to seek out the wronged party and ask to make amends?

Again: What do we do with murderers, rapists, and thieves? I laugh at the notion that there can be retribution rather than pennance. What's the retribution for murdering my child, particularly if the murderer has no money and no assets? The only remaining compensation available would be the murderer's labor. Sounds like slavery all over again.

This is pure Marxist drivel. She whining about the way things are when her solutions would be a nightmarish alternatives. Imagine a society where the criminally inclined face no repercussions for murder, rape and theft.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#259 » by dckingsfan » Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:28 pm

Zonkerbl wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:To our incarceration thread...

http://online.wsj.com/articles/greg-ber ... 1415574093


Can't read, paywall.


Basically it is a debate about the "broken window policing".

The research shows that there are "new directions" for prosecuting low-level crime that is much less destructive on society. From my point of view it shows that the tide is happily shifting.
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Re: Political Roundtable - Part VI 

Post#260 » by Zonkerbl » Mon Nov 10, 2014 7:50 pm

nate33 wrote:
Zonkerbl wrote:So basically eliminate the unnecessary redundancy of the criminal and civil court systems by eliminating the criminal court system entirely. We already have the solution in front of us, we just have to open our eyes and see it.

Her entire argument is rubbish. She ducks the question completely. The anecdote about the South Africa scenario isn't a solution. What? Is she going to simply hope that all the murderers and rapists will simply volunteer to seek out the wronged party and ask to make amends?

Again: What do we do with murderers, rapists, and thieves? I laugh at the notion that there can be retribution rather than pennance. What's the retribution for murdering my child, particularly if the murderer has no money and no assets? The only remaining compensation available would be the murderer's labor. Sounds like slavery all over again.

This is pure Marxist drivel. She whining about the way things are when her solutions would be a nightmarish alternatives. Imagine a society where the criminally inclined face no repercussions for murder, rape and theft.


Her argument went over your head, Nate.

Your argument is premised on the existence of bad people. If there are bad people in the world - murders, rapists, thieves - then they must be punished.

There are no bad people, Nate. There are dumbasses who make mistakes or blow their top or get in a fight or whatever. Bad guys are for hollywood.

And I entirely reject your premise that the purpose of justice is to punish people. Because then you introduce the racist element - white people are forgiven, thugs have to be punished. Our justice system has to be blind to our petty prejudices.
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