Political Roundtable Part XXVIII

[dckingsfan]

means-testing is always a clusterf*ck. the added layer of idiocy is that means-testing is usually the concession that dems make when republicans stonewall it. this time, R's are on board and Dems seemingly are insisting on means-testing as a pavlovian response. You have the green light - just enact it. if you're worried about the 1% getting money that they don't need... it's only 1%.

So this... and we can just have a social campaign - don't need the money - give it to someone that does.

[pancakes3]

it's really depressing that for a second there, congress agreed in principle to do something positive for the citizenry but then slammed the window on their own fingers by invoking means testing.

now the R's are doubling around, talking about phase outs and junk.

- we don't have income info for TY 2019 because the deadline's not for another month.
- this forces us to use TY 2018 information, which is... FROM 2018.
- the entire purpose of this program is because it's an EMERGENCY meaning RIGHT NOW.

i didn't do the math on this but my tax atty friend told me that under the current plan, a large majority of the c/o 2018 won't get a dime out of this bc in 2018 they were claimed as a dependent by parents who are above the threshold.

this just one of a hundred other scenarios where poor people who need money now won't be able to get it bc Pelosi looked a gift horse in the mouth.

edit: yeah, it's so much worse than that.

Read on Twitter

/photo/1

[pancakes3]

and here she is again, the indomitable katie porter.

https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2020/03/katie-porter-talks-covid-19-pelosi-and-congress-role/608314/

Godfrey: Do you think that House Democrats are doing enough right now?

Porter: I think the Oversight Committee is doing a good job. We had that hearing, and it was very important. We got JetBlue to agree to paid sick leave. So I think there’s a lot of good work being done by members.

The leadership approach has been one of trying to broker the compromise [with the White House on the relief package]. I ran saying I would hold people to account, and I’m willing to do that whether you’re a Democrat or Republican. And so I’m going to be pushing the speaker on some of the things she’s proposing, because I don’t think they’re the right move right now.

Godfrey: What kinds of things?

Porter: The speaker wants to explore refundable tax credits as a tool to help. That is too slow in my opinion. We need to get actual cash assistance to American families right now. Many of them are going to see paycheck cuts or lost jobs entirely. I’ve been calling, along with Mitt Romney, for an immediate cash stimulus. I shouldn’t say stimulus, because I really don’t think it’s a stimulus—it’s a $1,000 cash payment to stabilize American households, to be delivered before that crucial first of the month, April 1, when so many people’s bills become due. [Republicans in Congress are negotiating with the Trump administration on a deal that would involve direct cash payments; Pelosi, per her spokesman, supports “an approach targeted to those most in need.”]

The fact that the speaker’s talking about refundable tax credits … Who has time to wait to do their taxes and see what they get a year from now?

[gtn130]

Refundable tax credits is self-parody at this point. Pelosi and Schumer are really bad at their jobs.

[dckingsfan]

Katie Porter and Mitt Romney are right on this one. But so is Pelosi - you have to get the first bill through to be able to then flip over to what Porter/Romney want to do... And she will need cover on this one.

Porter/Romney Idea >> Pelosi Bill >>>>>>>>>>> Nothing.

But yeah, Katie Porter is the bomb. VP anyone?

[dckingsfan]

Mitigation can buy us time, but only suppression can get us to where we need to be.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/03/how-we-beat-coronavirus/608389/

[dobrojim]

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/03/18/elections-have-consequences-slow-response-virus-is-one-them/

A mea culpa. Good for Stuart Stevens but the vast majority of Republicans will
keep their heads firmly in the sand about how completely off the rails their party
has been since at least the days of Gringrich or before.

[Pointgod]

Refundable tax credits is self-parody at this point. Pelosi and Schumer are really bad at their jobs.

Tell me how Pelosi and Schumer are supposed to force Republicans to act like decent human beings in the background of a crisis?

[pancakes3]

Refundable tax credits is self-parody at this point. Pelosi and Schumer are really bad at their jobs.

Tell me how Pelosi and Schumer are supposed to force Republicans to act like decent human beings in the background of a crisis?

Romney, as a republican, was the first mover on this, calling for $1000 checks to everyone and Trump, in a panic, agreed to in principle. Pelosi was the one who fired back with the "targeted" talk. That opened the floodgates for everyone to put in their 2 cents on how to make this "fiscally responsible," losing sight on the fact that it's the urgent nature of this that's driving the need for cash influx, and whatever equitable principles of making sure people get their fair share, or the long term consequences of the excess gov't spending are negligible concerns compared to millions of ppl (low-income service workers) not being able to make rent, or buy groceries.

like, when Zion came out and covered the pay for the arena workers, he didn't make them line up w their tax docs to make sure that ppl with side hustles like driving uber, or bartending get less money than those who solely rely on their arena pay.

and now you've got sociopaths like Lindsay Graham trying to walk the entire thing back just because Pelosi/Shumer weren't able to strike when the iron was hot. half-educated congresspeople overthinking a situation, trying to gauge how much their self-defeating constituents would react to money that they need but don't want "out of principle" put their bureaucratic stank on the bill already.

[Fairview4Life]

Mitigation can buy us time, but only suppression can get us to where we need to be.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/03/how-we-beat-coronavirus/608389/

https://medium.com/@yishan/free-widespread-testing-is-the-only-way-america-goes-back-to-normal-952ee9201dd

[pancakes3]

republican proposal is now a $1200 tax credit for TY 2020, completely missing the purpose of the emergency funds.

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1TyJC65XCj5uyakcmuSwaoiyuWDn7Ddmh/view?usp=sharing

[gtn130]

Refundable tax credits is self-parody at this point. Pelosi and Schumer are really bad at their jobs.

Tell me how Pelosi and Schumer are supposed to force Republicans to act like decent human beings in the background of a crisis?

Republicans have outflanked Democrats on this. Like pancakes said, Romney basically proposed UBI and Chuck and Nancy are wonking themselves to death over it.

[Zonkerbl]

Trump having a full on toddler tantrum after a reporter lobs him a softball question about reassuring people who are scared.

What a pathetic, weak, cowardly little man.

[dckingsfan]

Refundable tax credits is self-parody at this point. Pelosi and Schumer are really bad at their jobs.

Tell me how Pelosi and Schumer are supposed to force Republicans to act like decent human beings in the background of a crisis?

Republicans have outflanked Democrats on this. Like pancakes said, Romney basically proposed UBI and Chuck and Nancy are wonking themselves to death over it.

Uh, who was the co-sponsor in the house? And what did the senate end up with?

[Zonkerbl]

If Republicans somehow end up owning UBI the Democratic party is dead, dead, dead

[gtn130]

Tell me how Pelosi and Schumer are supposed to force Republicans to act like decent human beings in the background of a crisis?

Republicans have outflanked Democrats on this. Like pancakes said, Romney basically proposed UBI and Chuck and Nancy are wonking themselves to death over it.

Uh, who was the co-sponsor in the house? And what did the senate end up with?

The fact that I don't know should tell you all you need to know about how Dems have managed the optics

[montestewart]

Refundable tax credits is self-parody at this point. Pelosi and Schumer are really bad at their jobs.

Tell me how Pelosi and Schumer are supposed to force Republicans to act like decent human beings in the background of a crisis?

Republicans have outflanked Democrats on this. Like pancakes said, Romney basically proposed UBI and Chuck and Nancy are wonking themselves to death over it.

Dems had best leverage yet as Trump watched his world collapse around him. They should have been asking for the moon, either forcing him to actually do something (a lot of things) for the nation or freeze framing him forever not doing anything for the nation. You can be compassionate and cutthroat at the same time. This could come back to haunt them in November.

[dckingsfan]

Republicans have outflanked Democrats on this. Like pancakes said, Romney basically proposed UBI and Chuck and Nancy are wonking themselves to death over it.

Uh, who was the co-sponsor in the house? And what did the senate end up with?

The fact that I don't know should tell you all you need to know about how Dems have managed the optics

That is a very good point. Sorry, I thought it was posted in this thread. Katie Porter and Mitt Romney were pushing the UBIish approach.

And you were right... they should have pushed it harder earlier.

[Pointgod]

Refundable tax credits is self-parody at this point. Pelosi and Schumer are really bad at their jobs.

Tell me how Pelosi and Schumer are supposed to force Republicans to act like decent human beings in the background of a crisis?

Romney, as a republican, was the first mover on this, calling for $1000 checks to everyone and Trump, in a panic, agreed to in principle. Pelosi was the one who fired back with the "targeted" talk. That opened the floodgates for everyone to put in their 2 cents on how to make this "fiscally responsible," losing sight on the fact that it's the urgent nature of this that's driving the need for cash influx, and whatever equitable principles of making sure people get their fair share, or the long term consequences of the excess gov't spending are negligible concerns compared to millions of ppl (low-income service workers) not being able to make rent, or buy groceries.

like, when Zion came out and covered the pay for the arena workers, he didn't make them line up w their tax docs to make sure that ppl with side hustles like driving uber, or bartending get less money than those who solely rely on their arena pay.

and now you've got sociopaths like Lindsay Graham trying to walk the entire thing back just because Pelosi/Shumer weren't able to strike when the iron was hot. half-educated congresspeople overthinking a situation, trying to gauge how much their self-defeating constituents would react to money that they need but don't want "out of principle" put their bureaucratic stank on the bill already.

I get your point but I don’t think it would have taken any comments from Pelosi for Republicans to start being dicks. Talk is cheap and Mitt Romney might have talked about UBI but until he actually votes for it I’m not buying that there was that much leverage.

Means testing might mean things for different people. For example I’m a salaried worker that’s fully setup to work from home for the foreseeable future and I make enough that I probably shouldn’t receive a cash payment. I’d rather people that need the money receive even higher payments. This is what Pelosi might have meant by means testing.

I get what you’re saying when it comes to speed and expediency it’s better to just give a payment to everyone and sort the rest out later. I was listening to the podcast with Katie Porter and she blatantly said the reason that the first package of paid leave didn’t go far enough is because of Steve Mnuchin. In the effort to get people help quickly they had to settle, instead of wasting precious time arguing back and forth with an inflexible whitehouse. I’d say that there are multiple bills that will need to be passed to add additional stimulus so it’s not like this was the only shot.

[pancakes3]

in an ideal world, means-testing is fine. unfortunately our world is fraught with transactional costs and even the most well-meaning test for means in this situation is facially counterproductive.

the unattainable triangle is prominently at play here. fast/cheap/good, you can only pick 2. seems obvious that for an emergency spending bill, it needs to be fast, and it needs to be cheap. can't fight the triangle.