Official Trade Thread - Part XLII

[long suffrin' boulez fan]

Faze mentioned Tyler Herro.

That's how you get better, ok? You draft Tyler Herro. You draft Keldon Johnson. You draft Matisse Thybulle. Xavier Tillman. Desmond Bane. Kenyon Martin Jr.

& when you give someone the absolute max, you make sure that he is absolutely worth it.

Pretty much sums it up.

[payitforward]

I would Target Harrison barns but not for Beal. Beal still have plenty of value. I want a way to dump bertans and try to add a guy like Barnes good defender and another scoring option.

We have nothing to trade for Barnes. No, Sac'to would not be interested in taking on Bertans' long contract.

The only trades that make sense for this team are to send out older players for younger players. Or relatively young players for the same plus picks.

[Dark Faze]

I would Target Harrison barns but not for Beal. Beal still have plenty of value. I want a way to dump bertans and try to add a guy like Barnes good defender and another scoring option.

We have nothing to trade for Barnes. No, Sac'to would not be interested in taking on Bertans' long contract.

The only trades that make sense for this team are to send out older players for younger players. Or relatively young players for the same plus picks.

Where do you stand on a Beal supermax? Can you conceivably see a path to consistently strong post season performances (not necessarily a ring) with that contract?

[dckingsfan]

I would Target Harrison barns but not for Beal. Beal still have plenty of value. I want a way to dump bertans and try to add a guy like Barnes good defender and another scoring option.

We have nothing to trade for Barnes. No, Sac'to would not be interested in taking on Bertans' long contract.

The only trades that make sense for this team are to send out older players for younger players. Or relatively young players for the same plus picks.

Barnes has been absolutely beasting and on a "relatively" solid contract given his production.

But gambix makes a solid point. We should be looking to move Bertans (given our logjam). Your point stands though... older players for young players (when/if possible).

[dckingsfan]

Where do you stand on a Beal supermax? Can you conceivably see a path to consistently strong post season performances (not necessarily a ring) with that contract?

He has really fallen off a cliff thus far in the year. If it was right now - no.

[Ruzious]

The Bulls outscored the Celtics by 30 points to close out their game tonight. C's were up big most of the game until the 4th and ended up losing.

It would be nice karma to see the national basketball media start talking about Tatum to the Wiz instead of Beal to Boston. I'd trade our forward/frontcourt depth and picks for Tatum 10 times out of 10, btw. If the Nets, Lakers, and Warriors can pay for these guys, Turd can do it too. He can feel free to go back medium-quality urinal cakes. No lower than medium quality, though. Bad pee pee splash can ruin an evening.

Dude: this is great stuff. You’ve GOT to post more.

Agreed -- please weigh in a lot more often!

OTOH, you do understand, I hope, that one of the reasons the Celtics lost last night, & that they are 2-5, is... Jayson Tatum. Right?

You are aware that...

To score 10 more points than Kyle Kuzma, all Jayson Tatum has to do is take 11 more shots & shoot 2 more FTs.

Is that good? Is that why you want him? Why you're willing to trade the farm for him?

Btw, while Tatum is taking those 11 extra shots & 2 extra FTAs to produce those 10 extra points, he's also turning the ball over more than Kuzma. He's fouling more than Kuzma. He's getting fewer steals than Kuzma. &, of course, he's grabbing way fewer rebounds than Kuzma.

Tatum sucks. He is shooting 46% on 2-pointers. He's shooting 27% on 3-pointers. His TS% is 47.9%.

Of course, that's only this year. He's a lot better than that on his career -- in fact, on his career Tatum's TS% is 56.6% -- a big fat 1.2% better than an average NBA wing (& below average for a 4, of course).

Overall on his career, there's no question that Jayson Tatum is an above average player. But, you want to compare him to those guys Brooklyn, GS & the Lakers pay big bucks. The difference is that those guys are really really good -- stars & superstars. Jayson Tatum isn't that. He's a volume shooter who, on his career, is a bit above average.

Why don't you compare his numbers to someone really good -- Jimmy Butler, say -- & see what they look like. Jimmy Butler is worth whatever he gets. So is Kevin Durant. So is LeBron. So is Steph. So is Kawhi. So is Luka. The real stars & superstars (they are few in number) are bargains. As to Jayson Tatum... no thanks.

As far as basketball players are properties, Tatum is a top 10 property in the NBA - regardless of how poorly he's started out this season. He's worth a lot more than Jimmy Butler is.

[Ruzious]

Any chance we can trade for Hunter of Atl. He's been slow recovering from last season's injury, and Reddish has flown past him developmentally. Not sure the Wiz have what they'd be looking for - though I think KCP is the kind of veteran they could use in the playoffs, but that wouldn't be enough, and the salaries don't match. It'd probably take some kind of 3 way trade to make something work - with us giving up a forward.

[payitforward]

...Why don't you compare (Jayson Tatum's) numbers to someone really good -- Jimmy Butler, say -- & see what they look like. Jimmy Butler is worth whatever he gets. So is Kevin Durant. So is LeBron. So is Steph. So is Kawhi. So is Luka. The real stars & superstars (they are few in number) are bargains. As to Jayson Tatum... no thanks.

As far as basketball players are properties, Tatum is a top 10 property in the NBA - regardless of how poorly he's started out this season. He's worth a lot more than Jimmy Butler is.

Jimmy Butler is 32 years old. This is his 11th season. He's played over 20,000 minutes. Obviously, he doesn't have as many years left as Jayson Tatum.

That's as far as you can go arguing that Tatum is "worth... more" than Butler.

There's no comparison. Jimmy Butler this year -- & any other year Tatum has been in the league -- has been an incomparably better player than Tatum. It isn't close. It jumps out of the numbers. &, of course, it's utterly obvious watching the two of them play.

Of course, that's a bit unfair -- you'd have to compare Jimmy's first few seasons to Tatum's first few. & when you do, it's instantly obvious that he leaves Tatum in the dust starting in his 2d season ('12-13).

Jimmy Butler is a first ballot hall of fame player.

[bubba hotep]

I know you're the token devils advocate/hyperbole guy on this board, but If you're going to compare Jimmy Butler and Jayson Tatum's careers, you have to at least consider their age-related seasons as opposed to just years in the league. Jimmy Butler was 23 his second year in the league, the same age Tatum is this year.

I also disagree that Butler is a first ballot hall of famer. I don't think a guy without any first-team accolades or a championship meets that distinction.

[gambitx777]

I'm about half and half on beal right now. Like, idk I'm open to moving him but I'm not like sold on it either. I like this team but depends on what we could get. If you catch GS willing to give us 2 or 3 of the blue chips plus filler you think about that. If you get a high ball offer from NYC you think about it. If the griz come at you with enough young talent you do it. Other than that I'm good.

Sent from my SM-G991U1 using RealGM mobile app

[payitforward]

I know you're the token devils advocate/hyperbole guy on this board...

What? How... wait.... You're right! But not always -- e.g. not in this particular conversation.

...but If you're going to compare Jimmy Butler and Jayson Tatum's careers, you have to at least consider their age-related seasons as opposed to just years in the league. Jimmy Butler was 23 his second year in the league, the same age Tatum is this year....

That's a great point -- a potential corrective in assessing Tatum -- thank you for thinking of it. It doesn't much help make a case for Tatum, however, since he's having an awful season so far (not to conclude anything off of 300 minutes -- he has plenty of time to turn it around).

In fact, there's no particular reason to choose Jimmy Butler as a point of comparison to Jayson Tatum. He just was the guy who popped up in my mind -- probably b/c he's one of my favorite players & has been since he was in college. I was confident he'd be an outstanding NBA player (not saying I knew he'd be as great as he wound up), & I thought he was an unbelievable steal at #30 in '11.

...I also disagree that Butler is a first ballot hall of famer. I don't think a guy without any first-team accolades or a championship meets that distinction.

I'm not clear on what "first-team accolades" refers to -- all star appearances? All NBA...?

In any case, I really meant to be characterizing his level of play & should have been clearer about that. Overall, Jimmy Butler has been one of the top 10 players in the league for the last decade. I don't see how anyone could dispute that, but even if you want to... it's a distraction: we're discussing Jayson Tatum.

Feel free to suggest a different player who would provide a better point of comparison.

[bubba hotep]

I know you're the token devils advocate/hyperbole guy on this board...

What? How... wait.... You're right! But not always -- e.g. not in this particular conversation.

...but If you're going to compare Jimmy Butler and Jayson Tatum's careers, you have to at least consider their age-related seasons as opposed to just years in the league. Jimmy Butler was 23 his second year in the league, the same age Tatum is this year....

That's a great point -- a potential corrective in assessing Tatum -- thank you for thinking of it. It doesn't much help make a case for Tatum, however, since he's having an awful season so far (not to conclude anything off of 300 minutes -- he has plenty of time to turn it around).

In fact, there's no particular reason to choose Jimmy Butler as a point of comparison to Jayson Tatum. He just was the guy who popped up in my mind -- probably b/c he's one of my favorite players & has been since he was in college. I was confident he'd be an outstanding NBA player (not saying I knew he'd be as great as he wound up), & I thought he was an unbelievable steal at #30 in '11.

...I also disagree that Butler is a first ballot hall of famer. I don't think a guy without any first-team accolades or a championship meets that distinction.

I'm not clear on what "first-team accolades" refers to -- all star appearances? All NBA...?

In any case, I really meant to be characterizing his level of play & should have been clearer about that. Overall, Jimmy Butler has been one of the top 10 players in the league for the last decade. I don't see how anyone could dispute that, but even if you want to... it's a distraction: we're discussing Jayson Tatum.

Feel free to suggest a different player who would provide a better point of comparison.

That's fair. I guess it's off topic but I was most blinded by the Jimmy Butler first-ballot NBA claim. He is great, and I think he's a great player, but I think that's a bit much. Even though it's kind of a subjective piece of trivia, Butler's never made an All-NBA or a All-Defensive first team. And when you compare him to the list of guys who've been first-ballot guys, he'd be pretty far down if not at the bottom. I think this is essentially it minus the last few years?: https://www.jetpunk.com/user-quizzes/30542/nba-first-ballot-hall-of-famers/stats

Sorry to derail!

[Dat2U]

Any chance we can trade for Hunter of Atl. He's been slow recovering from last season's injury, and Reddish has flown past him developmentally. Not sure the Wiz have what they'd be looking for - though I think KCP is the kind of veteran they could use in the playoffs, but that wouldn't be enough, and the salaries don't match. It'd probably take some kind of 3 way trade to make something work - with us giving up a forward.

I think they keep both and Huerter is the one that might get moved for a draft pick.

I really wanted Reddish this offseason but probably finished the playoffs too strong for the Hawks to move him.

[9 and 20]

Thanks for the invitation to post more. Will do my best!

Tatum is good at a really young age and has as good a chance as anyone his age to become great. I'd trade our forwards to Boston for him without hesitation. So fast that Kornichiwa and Wizraeli wouldn't have time to look up Boondock Saints.

Butler is underrated but came into the league as a grown ass man. That's neither here nor there. Tatum is really good. Keeping Beal, Dinwiide, and Gafford, while adding Tatum, is the foundation of an ECF team. The Leonsis family will survive paying the tax. Mini-Lenonsis will be just fine.

[payitforward]

Jayson Tatum had a truly outstanding rookie year, especially for a kid coming in at his age -- he didn't turn 20 until he was mostly through that first year. His numbers were solid across the board, & his scoring numbers were much better than that -- especially his 3 pt. % which was astounding for a rookie at 43.4% -- leading to a TS% of .586, which is extremely good for a wing.

Had it not been for Ben Simmons (a 2016 draftee), Tatum would have been, clearly & comfortably, rookie of the year (though someone could have put John Collins in the conversation, maybe Bam too -- but Tatum played substantially more than either of those guys).

His 2d year Tatum's scoring efficiency dropped significantly. Overall he wasn't a particularly effective player. But, he improved both his next two years, & last year was his best. This year he's basically been terrible.

To each his own, but he's not the kind of player I invest a lot of resources to acquire & pay a huge salary. He may turn out great, he may justify that. But... he may not. Let's see where he goes from here.

[DCZards]

[
Jimmy Butler is 32 years old. This is his 11th season. He's played over 20,000 minutes. Obviously, he doesn't have as many years left as Jayson Tatum.

That's as far as you can go arguing that Tatum is "worth... more" than Butler.

But that goes pretty far, PIF. I’d bet if you’d ask GMs who’d you rather have at this point in their careers Butler or Tatum the answer would be overwhelming Tatum simply because he’s much younger with, presumably, a much longer career ahead of him.

So in that respect it’s easy to argue that Tatum is “worth more,” despite the fact that Butler has been and is the better, more productive player.

[payitforward]

Jimmy Butler is 32 years old. This is his 11th season. He's played over 20,000 minutes. Obviously, he doesn't have as many years left as Jayson Tatum.

That's as far as you can go arguing that Tatum is "worth... more" than Butler.

But that goes pretty far, PIF. I’d bet if you’d ask GMs who’d you rather have at this point in their careers Butler or Tatum the answer would be overwhelming Tatum simply because he’s much younger with, presumably, a much longer career ahead of him.

So in that respect it’s easy to argue that Tatum is “worth more,” despite the fact that Butler has been and is the better, more productive player.

Sure! I meant that's the only basis on which one would decide that Tatum was worth more than Butler -- & you could certainly decide that!

Put it another way: If I thought I became a legit shot to win a title this year (favorite or even odds) by adding Butler, then of course I'd give young players & future value for him. Otherwise, no way... he's 32. He's not going to help me build/rebuild a team -- he's the last piece or, to a team like ours, he doesn't have a ton of value.

Therefore, in other words, if I was GM of such a building/rebuilding team, & I had to choose between pursuing Butler or Tatum, of course I'd roll the dice on Tatum.

That's not the same as saying that I think it's at all practical for the Wizards, in our current form, to take on a salary like his. Which was my first point, right? Viz....

...Just because it would be great to have a particular guy doesn't mean you have the ability to add him to your team.

If we are well into the luxury tax with 13 players, & the next move we make is to give Beal his maximum extension, & next season Gafford jumps from $2m to @$13m, we are completely hamstrung.

Among other things, it becomes virtually impossible to retain Harrell.

This is not a possible way to build an NBA team.

[Ruzious]

Every GM in the NBA would rather have Tatum over Butler - regardless of the stage their team is in. Butler puts up great individual numbers, but his lack of shooting range as a wing player does hurt Miami. They got killed in the playoffs because he an Bam couldn't shoot from outside - making it very easy for them to be defended - he shot under 30% in the playoffs. Btw, if anyone watched the Olympics... Tatum was the 2nd best player on the US team - behind only Durant.

[Ruzious]

Since we can't get Miles Bridges from Char, let's try for Gordon Haywood. Char is desperate for a center - as Plumlee's been a disaster. Hayward's 31 and on an enormous contract, but he's become a great shooter and still a multi-dimensional player. Harrell, Kuzma, and KCP for Hayward actually saves us money this season. Add a draft swap for Char.

[dckingsfan]

Since we can't get Miles Bridges from Char, let's try for Gordon Haywood. Char is desperate for a center - as Plumlee's been a disaster. Hayward's 31 and on an enormous contract, but he's become a great shooter and still a multi-dimensional player. Harrell, Kuzma, and KCP for Hayward actually saves us money this season. Add a draft swap for Char.

I really don't want to give up Harrell. I would rather wait until Bryant is healthy and then trade him instead. Anyway to package Bertans with him?