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Presti's Tree Reaches DC: The Official Will Dawkins Thread

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Re: Presti's Tree Reaches DC: The Official Will Dawkins Thread 

Post#241 » by TGW » Tue May 13, 2025 7:58 pm

FAH1223 wrote:
GoneShammGone wrote:You know, a lot of this criticism of the rookies would hold more weight with me if you just, you know, like, waited until they turned 20. :lol:


IT IS INCREDIBLE.

They shad on Tommy and rightfully so.

And all these guys that got drafted are already bums! And they have already made conclusions of them not even being as good as Deni!


You're getting too emotional.

No one said they were bums or that they weren't going to improve. I said they weren't special, and I feel pretty confident in saying that in the same way you believe Deni will never be an all-star.

As to your question, I don't know. I'm not a GM or a scout. But I also don't tout myself as one, or sell myself as one. I don't get paid millions of dollars to be that guy. What I do know is that I'm not impressed with the guy who is touted as the draft guru. That's it...maybe I'm wrong and Bub and Sarr become all-NBA players in 2034 and shock the world, but I'm not seeing it right now in 2025.

Also, Deni averaged 23.3 points, 9.7 rebs, and 5.2 asts on 51/42 splits after the all-star break. You're going to be eating some socks my boy if those numbers continue into next season.
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Re: Presti's Tree Reaches DC: The Official Will Dawkins Thread 

Post#242 » by DCZards » Tue May 13, 2025 8:04 pm

Sarr, Bub, and Kyshawn do not have to become all-NBA players to someday be considered good, smart picks by Dawkins.
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Re: Presti's Tree Reaches DC: The Official Will Dawkins Thread 

Post#243 » by CntOutSmrtCrazy » Tue May 13, 2025 8:20 pm

FAH1223 wrote:
TGW wrote:a. you don't know that. If he averages 20, 7, and 5, which is entirely possible given his trajectory, he will be an all-star or at least get a lot of votes.

b. check the Blazers fan sites across the web. The general consensus is that they would do that trade 10/10 if given the chance. Not so much here in DC...there are alot of fans that are still pissed about that trade.


IN THE WESTERN CONFERENCE? Especially if Giannis is going WesT? With all of the talent out there? Nah man.

CntOutSmrtCrazy wrote:They can't be bothered with facts. They were told it was a good trade, to the bait, ran with it, and now won't back down from it.

Deni very well may be a all-star next season, at least produce like one, it'll be up to how much that roster and how it improves, which by the way is a younger roster than the Wizards last I saw.


Deni Avdija is not going to be an All-Star. I will eat a sock if he does make it.

He's a good player. He will have a long career as your 4th or 5th option.

He's going to be 25 years old. I think he is what he is going to be at this point.

Meanwhile, you and TGW already think Bub Carrington won't even be as good as Deni and we have another 1st rounder as an asset to use!

Grunfeld or Sheppard would have never made forward thinking trades to build up asset capital. The Wizards ALWAYS had to GIVE UP ASSETS to get off MESSES that the front office created!

Again, you and TGW don't answer the question. WHO IS THE FRANCHISE GUY THAT DAWKINS MISSED OUT ON?!! IN 2023 AND 2024?! It SEEMS you guys think Deni Avdija is a franchise player and Will gave up on him too soon.


He's a guy that was throwing up 30 point triple doubles once he got established in POR, I think you're wrong, just like there's been a lot of wrong people on this subject matter. He would have basically been at least on a play-in team in the Eastern Conference with one a top 3 youngest roster in the league. Not his fault he had to play with this loser franchise and take a back to Kyle Kuzma for 3 seasons because Kuzma looked cool taking those high percentage fadeaways.

What flavor sock will you be choosing?

Also, I understand perfuse use of CAPs, I know it's a devastating day for the Dawkins acolytes.
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Re: Presti's Tree Reaches DC: The Official Will Dawkins Thread 

Post#244 » by TGW » Tue May 13, 2025 8:38 pm

I also want to put on record that I don't dislike Dawkins. I do think he's smart, well-mannered and well-spoken, and he has a strategy in place unlike the predecessors. With that being said, I believe he bungled some aspects of this rebuild. I didn't agree with the Poole trade; I think the guy is a bozo and bad for developing good habits, despite what they claim his leadership qualities are behind the scenes. I didn't like the Deni trade...obviously. He gave away Gafford for pretty much nothing. I was on board with the Bilal draft, but overall I'm not seeing any one to get excited about. So far, I give him an average grade, and I don't think it's too early to judge his performance.
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Re: Presti's Tree Reaches DC: The Official Will Dawkins Thread 

Post#245 » by doclinkin » Tue May 13, 2025 9:30 pm

TGW wrote:I also want to put on record that I don't dislike Dawkins. I do think he's smart, well-mannered and well-spoken, and he has a strategy in place unlike the predecessors. With that being said, I believe he bungled some aspects of this rebuild. I didn't agree with the Poole trade; I think the guy is a bozo and bad for developing good habits, despite what they claim his leadership qualities are behind the scenes. I didn't like the Deni trade...obviously. He gave away Gafford for pretty much nothing. I was on board with the Bilal draft, but overall I'm not seeing any one to get excited about. So far, I give him an average grade, and I don't think it's too early to judge his performance.



This is a reasonable take in my opinion. Even where I disagree. Points of disagreement:

I think Kyshawn may prove to have a more consequential career than Gafford, for instance. He already ranks among league leaders (not just rookies) in shots defended and 3pt defense. Plus he's a grinder. His two pastimes are working out and spending time with family. Seriously focused on improvement, in his game and physique. If you look at how doughy he looked in college vs pics of him at the end of the year, kid is putting on muscle and getting fit. A far leap from the draftee who said his favorite hobby was cooking fatty snacks. On court, George was a liability shooting 3's early on, but improved to be decent. His weakness coming out of college was that he was uninterested in defense, now he's a problem for the other team. Add to the fact that he's still growing, as a 6'9" guard, essentially.

Compare with Gaff's 1st couple years in the league, where he has admitted he failed to take it seriously or put in the work. I think the upside of a 3&D glue guy is more significant than an undersized energy Big.

I'm fine with your assessment of Poole's game, a bad example on defense. A placeholder in the salary cap that helps us reach the 90% threshold but still lose. Paid like a star but his +/- is no good. Still the rooks and all credit him for good attitude and work ethic on the offensive side of the ball, and no question he improved on offense at least. His 2nd best year in the league as far as shooting is concerned. Nice example of how to fight your way out of a slump. If we have to tank or else lose a pick to NYK, then might as well lose a bunch of games without griping and a toxic locker room. Happier to have Poole commanding the tank than Kuzma anyway. Can't believe they traded that one for value. Too: At some point if Poole continues to play well even on one side of the ball he is a positive trade asset. Teams pay for points more than any other stat. Even inefficient points.

As for the Deni trade. We can make every excuse we want for Deni and why he didn't play well his first few years in the league. But even Deni acknowledged that at times he was his own obstacle. That he would get flustered by refs calls and take himself out of the game, or complain to coaches, etc. We saw him passive on offense, weak left hand, weak finisher, afraid to shoot from 3, etc. That it wasn't until this front office came in that he started to go Turbo and swiftly develop. That the things he did well were fostered by the staff and he was given opportunities to build confidence.

As for the guy we selected with his draft pick. We picked a kid who is mentally strong with positives and optimism. Bub put up as many double doubles his first year as Deni did his first 2 years. Three in rebounds, two in assists. You can say he was given more opportunities but consider the pressure as well of being the lead guard on a team that was overmatched every night. Would rookie Deni have handled the situation any better? The rookie Deni who essentially complained that Westbrook expected too much of him, and made excuses for not being aggressive.

I think the Deni-only fans signficantly overlook and underrate Bub Carrington due to their hurt feelings. I think they have no idea how good this kid really is. Mentally strong, smart, and playing an advanced game at the hardest position to learn. All rookies tend to kinda suck. The younger they are the more their stats look bad early. With the teenage rookies you look for flashes to hint at what their upside is. In the case of Deni it was defense, speed with the ball in the open court, and smart reads in passing. In the case of Bub it is as a floor general, efficient shooter, no mistake passer.

You don't see a teenager put up a near 4:1 ast/to ratio. You don't see a rookie be the guy that teammates turn to for answers and guidance, as we saw this year with Bub. His own teammates credit him for understanding 1st the concepts that the coaches were inputting. You don't see a rookie hit 60% from midrange as Bub did for most of the season. You never see a rookie put up a 50/40/90 month shooting.

Now recognize that Bub put up those shot numbers the month his dad was dying of cancer. His first coach. His name sake. Put in an 82 game season with a positive attitude and hit the game winning final shot of the season. In the hardest year of his life.

I respectfully suggest we don't know where that sort of start tops out. That Bub is a half year younger than Deni was to start his career. If we were patient with Deni his first few years based on the potential we all saw, there's no reason to leap to judgement on the kid who came in after him. I can see it: Bub has a potential upside far higher than he is being given credit for. His three point shooting progression is the next likely thing we see advance, but where I expect him to take off is when Poole is traded. Because if you look at his splits, he plays significantly better as a starter. The Bub you saw this year was learning a role as an off ball guy, to a high usage gunner in Poole. That is not what got him to the league. He works really well with a savvy screener in the pick and roll game. Give him a few finishers on offense and I expect his detractors will be surprised at how good this kid is at influencing the outcome of the game with the ball in his hands. As the team around him improves I think fans will start to see his real value. Give him someone to pass to. Why I want Maluach and his 70% finishing on the inside. Give him a brick wall screener, why I want Sorber and his 260lbs of muscle and smart smart big man game. Hell I'll take a motivated Baltimore kid in Queen if they have chemistry together. A point guard needs options. Bub Carrington is a point guard born and raised. All I can say on that is: give it time. You will see.
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Re: Presti's Tree Reaches DC: The Official Will Dawkins Thread 

Post#246 » by leswizards » Wed May 14, 2025 11:33 am

TGW wrote:Fine if that's the position their taking, but then why trade Deni, (who is young, cheap, and coming of an excellent year with marked improvement) for a non-lottery pick in the worst draft snce 2000? Make it make sense. Why stack up all these picks in what you agree is a crappy draft year? It's not a good strategy anyway you slice it.

edit: and I also want to add why is it totally acceptable to heap praise on Dawkins for the job he's doing, but it's too early to actually judge his performance thus far? Can't have it both ways.


Deni was never all that good for the Wizards, and he is actually not on a cheap contract. It is only a cheap contract if he out plays the contract. Something he really hasn’t done yet. Last year was his best year, but it was still only slightly better than average.

The Wizards got good value for Deni. Whether they utilized that value well is another question.
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Re: Presti's Tree Reaches DC: The Official Will Dawkins Thread 

Post#247 » by leswizards » Wed May 14, 2025 11:38 am

FAH1223 wrote:My same question to TGW.

WHO THE HELL IS THE FRANCHISE GUY THAT DAWKINS MISSED IN 2023 AND 2024?!!!


He missed numerous players both years. I would name them, but it seems that you will only accept “franchise guys”, and I am not going to get into that debate.
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Re: Presti's Tree Reaches DC: The Official Will Dawkins Thread 

Post#248 » by leswizards » Wed May 14, 2025 11:49 am

DCZards wrote:What did players like Jalen Brunson or Derrick White or, even, Giannis look like after their rookie seasons? I'll tell you...like just guys.


All those players had better rookie seasons than the Dawkins first rounders have had. And all were substantially better than Bilal’s second season.

While most rookies improve, it is rare for players to be as bad as the Dawkins first rounders have been to suddenly become good or great players.
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Re: Presti's Tree Reaches DC: The Official Will Dawkins Thread 

Post#249 » by leswizards » Wed May 14, 2025 11:57 am

GoneShammGone wrote:You know, a lot of this criticism of the rookies would hold more weight with me if you just, you know, like, waited until they turned 20. :lol:


Why do we have to wait? The sad reality is that if Bilal does not make significant improvements this season, the best decision may be to not renew his contract. For Sarr, Bub and George, they have 2 seasons to show significant improvement, and if not, again the wise decision might be to not renew their contracts.
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Re: Presti's Tree Reaches DC: The Official Will Dawkins Thread 

Post#250 » by DCZards » Wed May 14, 2025 12:11 pm

leswizards wrote:
FAH1223 wrote:My same question to TGW.

WHO THE HELL IS THE FRANCHISE GUY THAT DAWKINS MISSED IN 2023 AND 2024?!!!


He missed numerous players both years. I would name them, but it seems that you will only accept “franchise guys”, and I am not going to get into that debate.

Nonsense. You can’t name “numerous” players in either year that Dawkins missed out on. Maybe a couple of players…but even those would be debatable given that at this point we don’t know how good Bilal, Sarr, Bub and George will be in 2-3 years.

And, yes, like it or not, we need to give the youngins we drafted time to develop.
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Re: Presti's Tree Reaches DC: The Official Will Dawkins Thread 

Post#251 » by leswizards » Wed May 14, 2025 12:21 pm

DCZards wrote:
leswizards wrote:
FAH1223 wrote:My same question to TGW.

WHO THE HELL IS THE FRANCHISE GUY THAT DAWKINS MISSED IN 2023 AND 2024?!!!


He missed numerous players both years. I would name them, but it seems that you will only accept “franchise guys”, and I am not going to get into that debate.

Nonsense. You can’t name “numerous” players in either year that Dawkins missed out on. Maybe a couple of players…but even those would be debatable given that at this point we don’t know how good Bilal, Sarr, Bub and George will be in 2-3 years.

And, yes, like it or not, we need to give the youngins we drafted time to develop.


2023: Cason Wallace, Derek Lively, Brandon Podziemski, Trayve Jackson-Davis, Jaime Jaquez Jr, et al

2024: Zach eddy, kel’el ware, Donovan clingan, yves missi, jaylen wells, dalton knecht, Tristan da Silva, Kyle Filipowski, et al
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Re: Presti's Tree Reaches DC: The Official Will Dawkins Thread 

Post#252 » by DCZards » Wed May 14, 2025 12:40 pm

leswizards wrote:
DCZards wrote:
leswizards wrote:
He missed numerous players both years. I would name them, but it seems that you will only accept “franchise guys”, and I am not going to get into that debate.

Nonsense. You can’t name “numerous” players in either year that Dawkins missed out on. Maybe a couple of players…but even those would be debatable given that at this point we don’t know how good Bilal, Sarr, Bub and George will be in 2-3 years.

And, yes, like it or not, we need to give the youngins we drafted time to develop.


2023: Cason Wallace, Derek Lively, Brandon Podziemski, Trayve Jackson-Davis, Jaime Jaquez Jr, et al

2024: Zach eddy, kel’el ware, Donovan clingan, yves missi, jaylen wells, dalton knecht, Tristan da Silva, Kyle Filipowski, et al

Many of those are 22-24 year olds who always look better than 19 & 2O yr olds at the outset of their NBA careers. Don’t be fooled by that.

And it remains to be seen how Sarr, for example, will end up compared to Ware and Missi.
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Re: Presti's Tree Reaches DC: The Official Will Dawkins Thread 

Post#253 » by leswizards » Wed May 14, 2025 12:54 pm

DCZards wrote:
leswizards wrote:
DCZards wrote:Nonsense. You can’t name “numerous” players in either year that Dawkins missed out on. Maybe a couple of players…but even those would be debatable given that at this point we don’t know how good Bilal, Sarr, Bub and George will be in 2-3 years.

And, yes, like it or not, we need to give the youngins we drafted time to develop.


2023: Cason Wallace, Derek Lively, Brandon Podziemski, Trayve Jackson-Davis, Jaime Jaquez Jr, et al

2024: Zach eddy, kel’el ware, Donovan clingan, yves missi, jaylen wells, dalton knecht, Tristan da Silva, Kyle Filipowski, et al

Many of those are 22-24 year olds who always look better than 19 & 2O yr olds at the outset of their NBA careers. Don’t be fooled by that.

And it remains to be seen how Sarr, for example, will end up compared to Ware and Missi.


There ages are irrelevant. Bilal has 1 season left to show significant improvement before the Wizards have to make a decision about his future with the team. If he doesn’t make significant improvement, the best decision may be to cut ties with him. All the other players have 2 seasons left.

My guess is there are far more 19 to 20 year olds that never panned out than there are 19 to 20 year olds who went from being awful in there first season or 2 to actually becoming solid nba players.

Youth is irrelevant if you don’t have nba talent. Some people have yet to accept that fact.

Edited to add: the majority of the players that I listed are actually under the age of 22. Even among the “old players” listed Brandin Podziemski just turned 22 and Zach Eddy just turned 23.
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Re: Presti's Tree Reaches DC: The Official Will Dawkins Thread 

Post#254 » by GoneShammGone » Wed May 14, 2025 3:04 pm

leswizards wrote:
GoneShammGone wrote:You know, a lot of this criticism of the rookies would hold more weight with me if you just, you know, like, waited until they turned 20. :lol:


Why do we have to wait? The sad reality is that if Bilal does not make significant improvements this season, the best decision may be to not renew his contract. For Sarr, Bub and George, they have 2 seasons to show significant improvement, and if not, again the wise decision might be to not renew their contracts.


It was a joke. But you are proving my point. You're out here acting like Bilal is Johnny Davis or something. He has already shown he is at least a positive value 3 and D rotation player and rim runner. There is absolutely no way he won't be in the NBA in four years. He may yet disappoint us, and he may end up traded or we may not match an RFA offer or something, but the idea that he is going to be just released and head back to France is crazy.
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Re: Presti's Tree Reaches DC: The Official Will Dawkins Thread 

Post#255 » by payitforward » Wed May 14, 2025 4:55 pm

TGW wrote:I also want to put on record that I don't dislike Dawkins. I do think he's smart, well-mannered and well-spoken, and he has a strategy in place unlike the predecessors. With that being said, I believe he bungled some aspects of this rebuild. I didn't agree with the Poole trade; I think the guy is a bozo and bad for developing good habits, despite what they claim his leadership qualities are behind the scenes. I didn't like the Deni trade...obviously. He gave away Gafford for pretty much nothing. I was on board with the Bilal draft, but overall I'm not seeing any one to get excited about. So far, I give him an average grade, and I don't think it's too early to judge his performance.

This is an intelligent, considered opinion. I pretty much disagree, but there's basis for discussion in this.

Poole -- we got the guy for nothing. He costs $$, but so what? We had to spend it.

But... do you grok that we got him for nothing? That is, we got him for a guy GS was unable to get anything for. Still a very good player -- but we didn't want more wins, so that's irrelevant.
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Re: Presti's Tree Reaches DC: The Official Will Dawkins Thread 

Post#256 » by payitforward » Wed May 14, 2025 6:03 pm

leswizards wrote:
DCZards wrote:
leswizards wrote:
He missed numerous players both years. I would name them, but it seems that you will only accept “franchise guys”, and I am not going to get into that debate.

Nonsense. You can’t name “numerous” players in either year that Dawkins missed out on. Maybe a couple of players…but even those would be debatable given that at this point we don’t know how good Bilal, Sarr, Bub and George will be in 2-3 years.

And, yes, like it or not, we need to give the youngins we drafted time to develop.

2023: Cason Wallace, Derek Lively, Brandon Podziemski, Trayce Jackson-Davis, Jaime Jaquez Jr,...

Come on, this is just silly.
we had the #8 pick & traded up a spot to get Bilal, so let's start with look at the 6 guys taken before him. Bilal has been better than Brandon Miller (2), Scoot Henderson (3), & Anthony Black (6). Now, he hasn't been as good as Wemby or the Thompson twins -- but, obviously, we didn't have a chance at them.

So far so good. But, how about the 10 guys taken after him?

Well... Bilal has certainly been better than Jarace Walker (8), Taylor Hendricks (9), Jett Howard (11), Gradey Dick (13), Jordan Hawkins (14), Kobe Bufkin (15), Keyonte George (16), & Jalen Hood-Schiffino (17).

That's good: it's extremely rare for a rookie (no matter where he was taken) to be better than 8 of the 10 guys picked after him. I assume you understand that.

As to the 2 other guys, Cason Wallace was a better rookie (ditto in his second year) than anyone taken before him except Wemby. So, if you think we missed on him, you might be right. Derrick Lively was quite good as well. You can make a case that a whole bunch of FOs didn't have those 2 guys high enough on their boards.

Jaquez (18) & Podziemski (19) are cases in support of my oft-repeated point that there are quite good players in the 2d half of R1. As to Jackson-Davis, pretty much every GM in the league whiffed on him -- some of them twice & a few 3 times!

None of the above, all the same, would make anyone think Bilal was a bad draft pick. None would constitute evidence of Will's limits. & the story is more or less the same in 2024.

The team Winger & Dawkins took over in June '23 possessed absolutely nothing with any value. Zero. Deni improved & gave us some value. That's it. This is going to be a very very long process.
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Re: Presti's Tree Reaches DC: The Official Will Dawkins Thread 

Post#257 » by leswizards » Wed May 14, 2025 8:55 pm

payitforward wrote:
leswizards wrote:
DCZards wrote:Nonsense. You can’t name “numerous” players in either year that Dawkins missed out on. Maybe a couple of players…but even those would be debatable given that at this point we don’t know how good Bilal, Sarr, Bub and George will be in 2-3 years.

And, yes, like it or not, we need to give the youngins we drafted time to develop.

2023: Cason Wallace, Derek Lively, Brandon Podziemski, Trayce Jackson-Davis, Jaime Jaquez Jr,...

Come on, this is just silly.
we had the #8 pick & traded up a spot to get Bilal, so let's start with look at the 6 guys taken before him. Bilal has been better than Brandon Miller (2), Scoot Henderson (3), & Anthony Black (6). Now, he hasn't been as good as Wemby or the Thompson twins -- but, obviously, we didn't have a chance at them.

So far so good. But, how about the 10 guys taken after him?

Well... Bilal has certainly been better than Jarace Walker (8), Taylor Hendricks (9), Jett Howard (11), Gradey Dick (13), Jordan Hawkins (14), Kobe Bufkin (15), Keyonte George (16), & Jalen Hood-Schiffino (17).

That's good: it's extremely rare for a rookie (no matter where he was taken) to be better than 8 of the 10 guys picked after him. I assume you understand that.

As to the 2 other guys, Cason Wallace was a better rookie (ditto in his second year) than anyone taken before him except Wemby. So, if you think we missed on him, you might be right. Derrick Lively was quite good as well. You can make a case that a whole bunch of FOs didn't have those 2 guys high enough on their boards.

Jaquez (18) & Podziemski (19) are cases in support of my oft-repeated point that there are quite good players in the 2d half of R1. As to Jackson-Davis, pretty much every GM in the league whiffed on him -- some of them twice & a few 3 times!

None of the above, all the same, would make anyone think Bilal was a bad draft pick. None would constitute evidence of Will's limits. & the story is more or less the same in 2024.

The team Winger & Dawkins took over in June '23 possessed absolutely nothing with any value. Zero. Deni improved & gave us some value. That's it. This is going to be a very very long process.


This is stupid. Someone asked for names, and I gave them names. All the names that I gave were way better than Bilal.

You state Bilal was better than walker, Hendricks, and gradey dick, yet all of those players have a greater ws than Bilal. Some significantly greater.

Anyways, it is a stupid argument. Just because other gms Miss around the same spot, does not absolve the Wizards gm of missing.
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Re: Presti's Tree Reaches DC: The Official Will Dawkins Thread 

Post#258 » by leswizards » Wed May 14, 2025 9:04 pm

GoneShammGone wrote:
leswizards wrote:
GoneShammGone wrote:You know, a lot of this criticism of the rookies would hold more weight with me if you just, you know, like, waited until they turned 20. :lol:


Why do we have to wait? The sad reality is that if Bilal does not make significant improvements this season, the best decision may be to not renew his contract. For Sarr, Bub and George, they have 2 seasons to show significant improvement, and if not, again the wise decision might be to not renew their contracts.


It was a joke. But you are proving my point. You're out here acting like Bilal is Johnny Davis or something. He has already shown he is at least a positive value 3 and D rotation player and rim runner. There is absolutely no way he won't be in the NBA in four years. He may yet disappoint us, and he may end up traded or we may not match an RFA offer or something, but the idea that he is going to be just released and head back to France is crazy.


I am not acting like anything. I am stating a fact. That fact is the Wizards have one season left to determine whether they are going to pick up his option or not. So far Bilal has not been very good. Contrary to your belief that he is a 3 and d player, he is actually very far below average as a three point shooter. And he is also below average as a shooter in general. If Bilal doesn’t improve significantly this season, and the Wizards pick up his option, it is not because he has earned it; it is merely because the Wizards are invested in their hope that he will get better.

Additionally, it is appropriate that you mention Johnny Davis. All the Dawkins first rounders have only been marginally better than Johnny Davis, but no one blasts them because they are invested in their belief that Shepherd was awful, and Dawkins will save them.
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Re: Presti's Tree Reaches DC: The Official Will Dawkins Thread 

Post#259 » by leswizards » Wed May 14, 2025 9:10 pm

payitforward wrote:
leswizards wrote:
DCZards wrote:Nonsense. You can’t name “numerous” players in either year that Dawkins missed out on. Maybe a couple of players…but even those would be debatable given that at this point we don’t know how good Bilal, Sarr, Bub and George will be in 2-3 years.

And, yes, like it or not, we need to give the youngins we drafted time to develop.

2023: Cason Wallace, Derek Lively, Brandon Podziemski, Trayce Jackson-Davis, Jaime Jaquez Jr,...

Come on, this is just silly.
we had the #8 pick & traded up a spot to get Bilal, so let's start with look at the 6 guys taken before him. Bilal has been better than Brandon Miller (2), Scoot Henderson (3), & Anthony Black (6). Now, he hasn't been as good as Wemby or the Thompson twins -- but, obviously, we didn't have a chance at them.

So far so good. But, how about the 10 guys taken after him?

Well... Bilal has certainly been better than Jarace Walker (8), Taylor Hendricks (9), Jett Howard (11), Gradey Dick (13), Jordan Hawkins (14), Kobe Bufkin (15), Keyonte George (16), & Jalen Hood-Schiffino (17).

That's good: it's extremely rare for a rookie (no matter where he was taken) to be better than 8 of the 10 guys picked after him. I assume you understand that.

As to the 2 other guys, Cason Wallace was a better rookie (ditto in his second year) than anyone taken before him except Wemby. So, if you think we missed on him, you might be right. Derrick Lively was quite good as well. You can make a case that a whole bunch of FOs didn't have those 2 guys high enough on their boards.

Jaquez (18) & Podziemski (19) are cases in support of my oft-repeated point that there are quite good players in the 2d half of R1. As to Jackson-Davis, pretty much every GM in the league whiffed on him -- some of them twice & a few 3 times!

None of the above, all the same, would make anyone think Bilal was a bad draft pick. None would constitute evidence of Will's limits. & the story is more or less the same in 2024.

The team Winger & Dawkins took over in June '23 possessed absolutely nothing with any value. Zero. Deni improved & gave us some value. That's it. This is going to be a very very long process.


And oh by the way, Trayce Jackson Davis is the player drafted in the second round pick that the wizards gave up to move up one spot. So, I would say yes, it is fair to say that they missed on him.
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Re: Presti's Tree Reaches DC: The Official Will Dawkins Thread 

Post#260 » by payitforward » Wed May 14, 2025 10:00 pm

leswizards wrote:And oh by the way, Trayce Jackson Davis is the player drafted in the second round pick that the wizards gave up to move up one spot. So, I would say yes, it is fair to say that they missed on him.

Actually, that's not true. We gave the #57 pick in the Poole trade.

Now let me help you make your point: it's still the case that, like the entire league, we whiffed on the kid. After all, we also had the #35 pick that year (traded to Chicago) & the #42 (used on Vukcevic). :)

OTOH, it's worth mentioning that Will/Winger had been on the job about two weeks when that draft took place.

I'm really not in a mood to argue with you, amigo. I believe this exchange started with my reaction to your condemnation that they'd drafted 9 guys w/o ever drafting a star -- am I recalling that correctly? Since they've only made 5 picks so far, it seemed worth while to respond.

I don't know who you would have picked at 2 this year: did you put your choice in the '24 draft thread?

These guys took over a franchise with no hope & no player-capital to work with.

The Beal trade was outstanding under the circumstances, & the Poole trade seems to have been the best next step available to us (since there was no point to keeping CP3).

There was no quick turnaround available. There was no "mid-rebuild." The only thing to do was start from scratch. I don't see how anyone can view it differently -- tho you're obviously entitled to view it however you want! :)

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