General (Non-Wiz) Draft Discussion

[doclinkin]

I found the video on the Team Tyke bros. Here.

[nate33]

I'm really starting to like the idea of drafting Curry because I think he can take over the roles of both Crittenton and Young (making them expendable). At first, he might be only be suited to play PG because he's only 6-3 and 185 pounds, but that shouldn't be a huge problem because Arenas can guard SG's in a pinch. Over time, Curry should fill out (and perhaps grown another inch). Curry, at 6-4, 195 pounds, would be roughly the size of Kirk Hinrich, Rashad McCants and O.J. Mayo. He'd be a much better fit than Young alongside Arenas.

My only question is, what does it mean when they say he's listed at 6-3 in college? Is that really 6-1.5 with thick shoes? Is it 6-3 in bare feet? How tall is he right now? He looks to me to be a little bit taller than Juan Dixon. Juan Dixon was listed at 6-3, 165 and was probably about 6-2 in bare feet. Curry doesn't appear to be any bulkier than Dixon in college, so if Curry is indeed 185, then that extra 20 pounds must be spread out somewhere. It stands to reason that he might be a legit 6-3 in bare feet.

[doclinkin]

My only question is, what does it mean when they say he's listed at 6-3 in college? Is that really 6-1.5 with thick shoes? Is it 6-3 in bare feet? How tall is he right now? He looks to me to be a little bit taller than Juan Dixon. Juan Dixon was listed at 6-3, 165 and was probably about 6-2 in bare feet. Curry doesn't appear to be any bulkier than Dixon in college, so if Curry is indeed 185, then that extra 20 pounds must be spread out somewhere. It stands to reason that he might be a legit 6-3 in bare feet.

Okay. Forensic image analysis here. Using a rough-gauge Patrick Mills as a measuring stick:

Patty Mills with Kobe:


Stephen Curry bending down to give a bro-hug to Patty Mills (3 seconds in):
http://espn.go.com/video/clip?id=4011303

Stef's got 2-3 inches on Mills. Correcting for perspective and posture, Kobe has 4-6 inches on Mills. So Stef's got an NBA 6'3". At the low end that's a Deron Willliams 6'3 ? (6' 2.75" in shoes). But he'll admittedly measure smaller in wingpsan (narrow frame) and not great standing reach either. Top end he may be in the Kirk Hinrich/Baron Davis/Gilbert Arenas/Steve Francis height territory.

But yeah, his frame is closer to Jason Terry than Steve Francis.

[DCZards]

Bigger, more athletic. But the point I'm harping on is that IQ, vision, judgment, 'game', clutch mindset, outside shooting, shot selection, etc are as much a part of talent as everything else.

Otherwise Nick Young would have been the ROY. Or JaVale. Or, hey, look back to the Wiz last high draft pick. This team needs an infusion of game smarts. We have a ton of raw athletes, but few enough crafty cunning smart players who know the team game inside and out.

Is Evans more 'talented' than Steve Nash? More 'talented' than Mark Price, or John Stockton, or MIke Bibby or --pick a floorbound scoring PG. Maybe. If you say so. I see the 25% 3pt shooting from college range, 3 point whatever assists (despite 3 other double digit scorers) and the worst Pure Passer Rating of any PG in the draft -- all on top of a nice set of flashy individual skills: nice hesitation dribble, decent crossover, strong, good ups. Nice highlight package, looks good in slow-mo with a beat behind it.

I'm just saying, we got a ton of 'talent' and 'potential', now can we get some clutch shooting smart straight up ballers? And grown-ups? Nobody who needs babysitting by a posse of their brothers in order to figure out what they're supposed to be doing.

Doc, your condescending, prejudicial attitude toward Evans and his family are disturbing. There are a lot of good, solid kids who need guidance...not all of them are fortunate enough to grow up in a situation like Curry did. It's fine to prefer Curry, but let's not make negative judgements about Evan's "smarts" or IQ or the support he's received from his family when you don't have a clue what the real deal is. (Yes, I get sensitive when people stereotype black folks, especially kids.)

And spare me the "ratings" stuff. The kid was a freshman playing PG for the first time. Ratings don't measure heart, competitiveness or intelligence. Evans is a flat out player. Period.

[Ruzious]

My only question is, what does it mean when they say he's listed at 6-3 in college? Is that really 6-1.5 with thick shoes? Is it 6-3 in bare feet? How tall is he right now? He looks to me to be a little bit taller than Juan Dixon. Juan Dixon was listed at 6-3, 165 and was probably about 6-2 in bare feet. Curry doesn't appear to be any bulkier than Dixon in college, so if Curry is indeed 185, then that extra 20 pounds must be spread out somewhere. It stands to reason that he might be a legit 6-3 in bare feet.

Stef's got 2-3 inches on Mills. Correcting for perspective and posture, Kobe has 4-6 inches on Mills. So Stef's got an NBA 6'3". At the low end that's a Deron Willliams 6'3 ? (6' 2.75" in shoes). But he'll admittedly measure smaller in wingpsan (narrow frame) and not great standing reach either. Top end he may be in the Kirk Hinrich/Baron Davis/Gilbert Arenas/Steve Francis height territory.

But yeah, his frame is closer to Jason Terry than Steve Francis.

Gong. His frame is closer Juan Dixon's. Steve Francis is like Ollie to Curry's Stanley. And Kobe's got 7 inches height on Mills. Curry's dad was probably 6'4, 190, and he had a clearly bigger frame than young Steph does. If Curry is really the 185 he's listed at, you could knock me over with a feather.

[nate33]

If Curry is really the 185 he's listed at, you could knock me over with a feather.

I dunno:

He's got a little muscle tone. He's not Nick Young skinny. If he is indeed 6-2/6-3 (without shoes), he can easily be 185.

[doclinkin]

Doc, your condescending, prejudicial attitude toward Evans and his family are disturbing. There are a lot of good, solid kids who need guidance...not all of them are fortunate enough to grow up in a situation like Curry did. It's fine to prefer Curry, but let's not make negative judgements about Evan's "smarts" or IQ or the support he's received from his family when you don't have a clue what the real deal is. (Yes, I get sensitive when people stereotype black folks, especially kids.)

And spare me the "ratings" stuff. The kid was a freshman playing PG for the first time. Ratings don't measure heart, competitiveness or intelligence. Evans is a flat out player. Period.

Eh relax hair-trigger. Curry's unusual situation is exactly what I'm talking about. Kid was raised around the pro game, had money from the get-go, interviews like a pro, won't have to make significant adjustments to learn to adjust to the big leagues. The toughest adjustment for most talented players coming into the league is the off-court stuff. Learning where to focus their energy, how to contribute when they're a role-player and not 'The Man'. How not to get distracted by money and fame. It robs many players of their ability to significantly contribute for the first couple years in the league. That gap between talent and production will cost many a good coach their job. Ask Eddie Jordan.

And I'll feel free to make snap judgments about whomevertheheck I want to. Not because he's black, poor, whatever/whomever, but because my thin-slice of the kid tells me (posture, eye focus, responses in interviews, etc) something about the guy based on life experience and instinct. Juan Dixon had a harder circumstance, raised by his brother, two dead addicts for parents. But I never had the same questions about Juan. You don't think you can read a person by looking at them? Or what I can't because I'm white? Getthefoutta here.

My opinion only, I think he'll have an adjustment period and some growing up to do and will require a little more babysitting/growing up offcourt than some other players. Even than Griffin (who seems to attract violence) but especially more than Curry. And whatever his talent level, how ever it tops out, on this team that's not as good a fit. I account that aptitude for success as a part of talent.

And 'first time playing PG'. So was S'Curry. Difference is to prep for the job Curry volunteered at camps held by Steve Nash and Chris Paul over the summer, and picked their brains at night after the daytime duties were done. Then first games out was showing double digit assists. That's what I'm talking about when I reference 'smarts': anticipating a situation and taking advantage of an opportunity to maximize your ability to succeed.

Ratings? Ratings measure competitive intelligence, damn skippy they do.

A player who racks about as many TOs as they do assists is a liability on court. Eric Maynor will be a solid QB in the NBA because he knows how when and where to dish and to whom. Doesn't matter if Tyreke looks like he has a quicker crossover and a flashier dribble, stronger frame. I don't fault him for his athleticism, but I got every right to point out the difference between his evident physical skills and his oncourt results. If he were a less selfish player, yeah a _smarter_ player, he'd be this year's Derrick Rose. But he ain't and he's not. Tough, yes. Competitive, fine. Not as smart a player. That's my take. Feel free to disagree with my opinion, prove me wrong, but no point getting blacked into a corner defending a kid you or I don't know. [sic]

Tyreke is a solid talent. I just rank him lower down because of an instinct that says he has a bunch more growing up to do.

[pancakes3]

What's with all this talk of Tyreke Evans being a PG? The kid's an athlete pure and simple. Yes he did play PG at memphis but this kid is not an NBA quality pg by any stretch of the imagination. He's a more skilled DeRozen and inexplicably he's projected about 10 spots lower than DeRozen.

As for his character issues, i believe that if he kept his nose relatively clean at D1 school with all the scrutiny, temptations, stress, etc., odds are that he can keep his nose relatively clean in the NBA. He might not have the work ethic of Steph Curry but he won't be a slacker either. If he was going to be binging on booze, drugs, and women, he would be doing it already at college where the booze, drugs, and women are readily abundant. And if he was doing it already, it certainly isn't affecting his play any.

I personally have no interest in drafting Evans seeing as he's a clone of Nick Young - talented 2-guard who can get to the rim at will but has a penchant to settle for jumpers and has a bad habit of fading away even on spot up jumpers. Except Nick Young is a way more reliable shooter than Evans can ever aspire to be. I'm sure another team lacking in depth can pick him up and use him in an ariza-type role but we already took a flier and we shouldn't be looking for another one when last year's model is running fine.

[doclinkin]

But yeah, his frame is closer to Jason Terry than Steve Francis.

Gong. His frame is closer Juan Dixon's. Steve Francis is like Ollie to Curry's Stanley.

Let's re-read: Closer to Jason Terry's than -TO- Steve Francis'. Thought that was implied. Jason Terry was something like 175 lbs coming into the league. Stef's got height on him, but he's semi-scrawny, no question. I've said since the last thread that his starting position is as essentially a better shooting, better dishing Juan Dixon. With room to grow. But I don't see that as an epithet.

[DCZards]

You don't think you can read a person by looking at them?

Yeah, I guess you also read Susan Boyle by looking at her.

I could use cliches like "don't judge a book by its cover" or "looks can be deceiving" but that would probably only prompt another long-winded, "look how smart I am" response from you.

Peace & love.

[LyricalRico]

And I'll feel free to make snap judgments about whomevertheheck I want to. Not because he's black, poor, whatever/whomever, but because my thin-slice of the kid tells me (posture, eye focus, responses in interviews, etc) something about the guy based on life experience and instinct. Juan Dixon had a harder circumstance, raised by his brother, two dead addicts for parents. But I never had the same questions about Juan. You don't think you can read a person by looking at them? Or what I can't because I'm white? Getthefoutta here.

My opinion only, I think he'll have an adjustment period and some growing up to do and will require a little more babysitting/growing up offcourt than some other players. Even than Griffin (who seems to attract violence) but especially more than Curry. And whatever his talent level, how ever it tops out, on this team that's not as good a fit. I account that aptitude for success as a part of talent.

Great reply, doc. I'm black myself but even I couldn't see how you raising questions about a guy's involvement in a shooting or his high turnover rate or how he'll fit in with the current Wiz roster equates to racial stereotyping. Especially since Curry is also black (although him having money and being able to speak english would make many of my folks call him white anyway).

Let's stick to the basketball arguments, people. Okay? No need to go all Whitlock on us.

[doclinkin]

You don't think you can read a person by looking at them?

Yeah, I guess you also read Susan Boyle by looking at her.

Yes, poor lateral movement. Not bowlegged enough.


(But since you brought it up. Am I an ass for thinking she can't sing all that well? She's alright but good god I was expecting to be blown away for all the hoopla. There's plenty of un-handsome ladies who can sing far better than that. )

[nate33]

FWIW, Evans was involved in a shooting incident. Evans was driving a Ford Expedition when his cousin Jamar Evans, sitting in the passenger seat, shot and killed Marcus Reason. Tyreke, Jamar, and a third passenger, Dwayne Davis say that it was self defense because Reason shot first. Police haven't found evidence that Reason fired a gun.

No charges were filed against Tyreke Evans and the general impression is that Tyreke Evans was in the wrong place at the wrong time. Jamar Evans turned himself in and will be charged with murder. He will claim self defense.

link

Not to poke a stick into a hornets nest here, but I have one question: Where did Evans get a Ford Expedition?

He grew up in a working class town just south of Philly. No mother or father around. His older brother is his legal guardian. He's just 18. Where did he get the coin to drive around in an Expedition? Did anybody here on this board have a Ford Expedition (or equivalent) at 18?

Is it wrong to wonder about such things?

[doclinkin]

My understanding is Team Tyreke bought it for him, as they take care of all his expenses. There were rumors that they were accepting money from various outside sources (shoe companies, recruiters). Dismissed as unfounded rumors started by jealous haters. But whatever, that part's just college athletics, doesn't bother me.

I had a yellow Dodge Aspen station wagon with a V8 engine and a towing hitch. Not fast, not maneuverable, but it had torque like a bulldozer. Ugly as heck.

[fishercob]

Part of me really likes Steph Curry, but I'm admittedly conflicted. The last great shooting, great scoring, physically limited NCAA superstar was JJ Redick. He's had very little impact, and has had the benefit of Howard drawing doubleteams. Adam Morrison, his co player of the year, is a complete bust.

I know it's not an apples to apples comparison since Curry purportedly has legit PG skills, but I worry is all. If he's not an NBA athlete, will his college success translate?

[nate33]

Part of me really likes Steph Curry, but I'm admittedly conflicted. The last great shooting, great scoring, physically limited NCAA superstar was JJ Redick. He's had very little impact, and has had the benefit of Howard drawing doubleteams. Adam Morrison, his co player of the year, is a complete bust.

I know it's not an apples to apples comparison since Curry purportedly has legit PG skills, but I worry is all. If he's not an NBA athlete, will his college success translate?

I actually think he is an NBA athlete. It's not like he's slow-footed or can't jump. He may not be an ultraquick waterbug type like Devin Harris, but he's as athletic as Dixon, Hinrich, Ben Gordon, Flip Murray, Kerr, Ray Allen, Redd, Mark Price, etc.

I figure the worst-case scenario is that he's a much better version of Juan Dixon. He's Juan Dixon with passable PG skills and one of the best jumpers in the history of the NBA. On the upside, he might be another Mark Price. If he's a legit 6-3 barefoot, and grows another inch, he could be another Ray Allen.

[fishercob]

Ray Allen the future HOF'er? Have you looked at Ben Gordon's physique lately?

You had me with the rich man's Juan Dixon. Steve Kerr? Absolutely. And hell, Reggie Miller and Rip Hamilton were both very good players with skinny frames. All I'm saying is that there's reason to expect Curry might have a tough adjustment given that he's going to be gaurded by stronger guys a lot of the time. He may have a fine NBA career, but if we're picking 5th, I have concerns about him at that spot.

[charlie32]

Curry's "supporting cast" might have been the weakest collection of D1 players I have ever seen, because without Curry you would never see a team like Davidson play. They were atrocious. The fact that that team could be competitive with the likes of Oklahoma is testament to the brilliance of Curry. I watched them several times this year and never saw the kid one time blow up at his inferior teammates as they dropped passes, missed wide open shots, or otherwise displayed skills that would have some rec league ballers kicking chairs on the sideline. To the contrary, he seemed to be the guy who was picking his team up, telling them not to worry, keeping his cool and inspiring confidence. All of which is to say the guy is a winner. And he will continue to be a winner. All this talk about his frame, his athletic ability, etc. is much ado about nothing in his case. Can he carry or transform an NBA team -- no; can he be as good as Mike Bibby (another smallish, not amazingly athletic son of a former NBA player) -- absolutely, and Mike Bibby was for a time one of the best PGs in the league.

[fishercob]

Good argument charlie. I like the Bibby comparison.

[LyricalRico]

^ The only thing with the Bibby comparison is that in his prime in Sacto he had a backcourt partner that could play PG and lock down SGs - Curry won't have that here. Bibby also played with 2 of the best passing big men of the last 20 years playing the high post - Curry won't have that here either. I don't know where I'm going with this but I just thought I'd point that out.