Bean Burrito / Nick Young Appreciation Thread.

[dlts20]

NY for MIP

He's going to have to get up to 18ppg and get some national recognition before he can even be considered. Already established players who are playing like superstars like Love and Westbrook will be considered before NY at this point in my opinion.

I think NY can boost his ppg up to 18, personally.

yeah, I talked about this on another Wiz site when someone brought up Love. I said that it all depends on what you consider him. I mean Love was averaging a double double last year. He had like 14 & 11 in only 28min. Its just that the idiot coach never played him alot. Even for like the first 10 games this year he was only getting like 25mpg. Westbrook should definitely not have a chance. He's just going through a natural progression if you ask me

[hands11]

Nick is getting a longer run as a starter and lots more minutes then Dray did last year.

Dray's averages were climbing but there just wasn't enough time for the better scores to pull up the average.

Nick doesn't have that issue.

Averages for NY

Numbers for November Pts 13.2 Mins 22.7
Numbers for December Pts 18.3 Mins 32.7
Numbers for January Pts 22.2 Mins 36.6

Overall average 15.9 Mins 28.3

Since Average pts is average per game regardless of minutes, NY has some low minute/ low pt games that are pulling down his average pts number. With more than half the games still to be played and Nick regularly getting 36 or more minutes, 18 pts a game is easily in his range.

A top flight scoring machine like Nick should be getting 20 or more FGA a game. He is averaging 13 but has been getting more like 18 lately. But again, there are only so many shots a game so someone needs to back off the jacking. I think Dray and Wall shoot to much for a team that has Young and Lewis shooting .460

[pancakes3]

20 fga/game is a BUNCH. out of legit #1 options like brandon roy, kevin martin, joe johnson, etc. nobody gets that many shots. the only guys in the league that get that kind of green light are: Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Melo, and Monta Ellis.

i mean, let's not get carried away. nick can shoot pretty nice and we've always know he could heat up. however he's by no means a "top flight scoring machine". if that shot isn't falling, he's not getting buckets. he can't get to the rim and draw fouls, he can't force the issue by posting up, and he's not especially good at creating off the dribble. i think the way he's being used right now is fine and dandy. 12-15 fga is more than enough for Nick. if he's hot? sure, feed him some more, but don't make it a point to utilize him more than he can handle.

[nate33]

Nick Young averaged 15 shots per 36 in his first two seasons, 14 shots per 36 last year, and 16 shots per 36 this year. Clearly, he can handle his current workload. He might be able to get that up to 17 or 18 shots a game, but it's tough to see him getting more than that.

A good comparison might be Antawn Jamison. In Jamison's last two seasons here (when Arenas was hurt), he was the number one option of offense but he wasn't really the kind of player who did a whole of lot of shot creation himself; his role was similar to Young's. Jamison averaged 18 shots per 38 in 08/09 and 17 shots per 36 in 09/10. It's tough to see Nick getting more shots than that.

If Young averaged 17 shots a game at his current eFG% of just above .500, he's score about 18 a game on FG's alone. Throw in his customary 4 FTA's a game and he can tack on another 3.5 points. So that's about 21.5 points a game while shooting roughly as much as Jamison did.

[tontoz]

I think there are some people here who focus too much on what Nick can't do instead of what he can do.

He can...

-hit 3s. He has been doing that since his rookie year. Currently he is shooting 41% from 3 on 4 attempts per game.
-shoot off the dribble. His pullup J off the dribble seems to be his favorite shot and is tough to guard.
- play defense. He has shown good defensive effort and ability.

Those are important, if not mandatory, skills for a starting 2. So what if he doesn't get assists. Playing next to Wall that isn't a big issue. He also doesn't turn it over. He is very decisive with the ball. If he takes a couple of dribbles and nothing is there he kicks it back out.

I would like to see him get more rebounds but that is not a huge issue for a 2. My main criticism is that he doesn't get to the basket/foul line enough but i think now that he has a bigger role with the team he will improve on this with time.

[pancakes3]

i REALLY don't think we can expect so much development from N1 so quick. there are people on this board (fish?) who still aren't convinced Nick's turned a corner now. yet there are others who want to increase his minutes, AND increase his per-minute production? i dunno. to me that's just asking too much. i'd be happy if mcgee can just get up to his per-36 numbers as it is, without any fga/min increases etc.

[DaRealHibachi]

I think there are some people here who focus too much on what Nick can't do instead of what he can do.

He can...

-hit 3s. He has been doing that since his rookie year. Currently he is shooting 41% from 3 on 4 attempts per game.
-shoot off the dribble. His pullup J off the dribble seems to be his favorite shot and is tough to guard.
- play defense. He has shown good defensive effort and ability.

Those are important, if not mandatory, skills for a starting 2. So what if he doesn't get assists. Playing next to Wall that isn't a big issue. He also doesn't turn it over. He is very decisive with the ball. If he takes a couple of dribbles and nothing is there he kicks it back out.

I would like to see him get more rebounds but that is not a huge issue for a 2. My main criticism is that he doesn't get to the basket/foul line enough but i think now that he has a bigger role with the team he will improve on this with time.

Couldn't have said it better myself... He does what he needs to do, we're in a position to sing him cheap... And he's a perfect #2 scoring option behind a true 1st option scorer... He's a good fit for the team we're trying to build; young players through the draft and eventually adding that star player...

[tontoz]

^ I forgot to mention that he also seems to step up in big games. Before last night his best games this year were against Miami and LAL. He dropped 30 on Wade and Kobe.

I happened to be watching the game in his rookie year when they played the Lakers in LA. He put on quite a show. He seems to like a big stage.

[nate33]

^ I forgot to mention that he also seems to step up in big games. Before last night his best games this year were against Miami and LAL. He dropped 30 on Wade and Kobe.

I happened to be watching the game in his rookie year when they played the Lakers in LA. He put on quite a show. He seems to like a big stage.

I think part of it is that Wade and Kobe do so much work on the offensive end that they're not thrilled about chasing Young around all over the place on the defensive end.

[Zonkerbl]

I think there are some people here who focus too much on what Nick can't do instead of what he can do.

He can...

-hit 3s. He has been doing that since his rookie year. Currently he is shooting 41% from 3 on 4 attempts per game.
-shoot off the dribble. His pullup J off the dribble seems to be his favorite shot and is tough to guard.
- play defense. He has shown good defensive effort and ability.

Those are important, if not mandatory, skills for a starting 2. So what if he doesn't get assists. Playing next to Wall that isn't a big issue. He also doesn't turn it over. He is very decisive with the ball. If he takes a couple of dribbles and nothing is there he kicks it back out.

I would like to see him get more rebounds but that is not a huge issue for a 2. My main criticism is that he doesn't get to the basket/foul line enough but i think now that he has a bigger role with the team he will improve on this with time.

But this is precisely what I just said and everyone jumped all over me...

[tontoz]

^ I forgot to mention that he also seems to step up in big games. Before last night his best games this year were against Miami and LAL. He dropped 30 on Wade and Kobe.

I happened to be watching the game in his rookie year when they played the Lakers in LA. He put on quite a show. He seems to like a big stage.

I think part of it is that Wade and Kobe do so much work on the offensive end that they're not thrilled about chasing Young around all over the place on the defensive end.

That reminds me of an interview with Steve Smith. Speaking of defense he said he hated trying to guard Reggie Miller because it took so much effort to chase him around all game. When the subject turned to Jordan he said it was "easy" to guard Jordan, by easy he meant not physically taxing. He would get scored on but not worn out.

[hands11]

20 fga/game is a BUNCH. out of legit #1 options like brandon roy, kevin martin, joe johnson, etc. nobody gets that many shots. the only guys in the league that get that kind of green light are: Kobe, Lebron, Wade, Melo, and Monta Ellis.

i mean, let's not get carried away. nick can shoot pretty nice and we've always know he could heat up. however he's by no means a "top flight scoring machine". if that shot isn't falling, he's not getting buckets. he can't get to the rim and draw fouls, he can't force the issue by posting up, and he's not especially good at creating off the dribble. i think the way he's being used right now is fine and dandy. 12-15 fga is more than enough for Nick. if he's hot? sure, feed him some more, but don't make it a point to utilize him more than he can handle.

What ?

Not good at creating off the dribble ? What are you talking about ? Nick can break ankles and get separation all by himself.

And one of his first moves yesterday was a post up though I have been calling for more of this.
And he can drive. He just doesn't do it enough. He is growing his game and another 5 lbs will help.

And you're missing the context of my post also. What is enough for Nick or Nick and Lewis ? They are more efficient that the player shooting more than they are. - Wall and Dray.

Nick has earned the right for that steady diet of shots through both time and on court production. He has earned the green light and I have grown to trust him with it. From what I see, we have a better shot of producing pts giving him and Lewis more shots than Wall and Dray taking all those attempts at a lower percentage. Plus when Nick get it going, he gets wet. Soaking wet.

And even the top name scorer/shooter have off nights.

Durant 9-24, 9-24, 6-24, 6-17, 9-26, 8-20
Ellis 9-22, 7-22, 7-21, 6-16, 7-24, 12-29, 4-19
Kobe 8-20, 11-32, 8-27, 14-33, 9-25, 9-23, 8-27

Year Averages to Date
Durant Min 39.1 attempts 20.1, FG% .466 3FG .320
Ellis Min 40.9 attempts 20.2, FG% .465 3FG .389
Kobe Min 33, attempts 19.6, FG% .446 3FG .321
Nick Min 28.3, attempts 12.9, FG% .462 3FG .410

Nicks January Numbers 15
Min 32.7, attempts 14.5, FG% .436, 3FG .422

Nicks January Numbers ( 5 games)
Min 36.6, attempts 16, FG% .506, 3FG .500

Jan is a small sample size so they will likely drop but Nick is hot and coming into him own with the training he has received and the increased minutes he has EARNED.

http://espn.go.com/nba/statistics/player/_/stat/scoring-per-game/sort/fieldGoalPct/position/shooting-guards

Look at Nick and Ellis's numbers. Only minutes separate them with Nick better from 3 range and FT

FEED THE NICK.

[hands11]

i REALLY don't think we can expect so much development from N1 so quick. there are people on this board (fish?) who still aren't convinced Nick's turned a corner now. yet there are others who want to increase his minutes, AND increase his per-minute production? i dunno. to me that's just asking too much. i'd be happy if mcgee can just get up to his per-36 numbers as it is, without any fga/min increases etc.

His minutes are already up.

Jan 36.6 with games of 40, 39, 45 (OT)

For those that watched the game last night, they got to witnessed was a break out game by him. Nick will need to stay focused and humble so he doesn't get to ahead of himself, but now he knows he can do it vs just thinking he can. And just as important, his teammates and coaches know it and so do other teams and coaches. Now you have to game plan for him even more and that will open up things for more players as long as they put the ball in his hands first and there are other options like Lewis on the floor with him. Even the famously RGM crappy Kirk is shooting FG .460 and 3FG .350. And that is low for Kirks 3 ball since his career average is .378 and his best year was .415

Nicks mental development this year as been... AMAZING. He is being coachable.

[pancakes3]

His minutes are already up.

Jan 36.6 with games of 40, 39, 45 (OT)

For those that watched the game last night, they got to witnessed was a break out game by him. Nick will need to stay focused and humble so he doesn't get to ahead of himself, but now he knows he can do it vs just thinking he can. And just as important, his teammates and coaches know it and so do other teams and coaches. Now you have to game plan for him even more and that will open up things for more players as long as they put the ball in his hands first and there are other options like Lewis on the floor with him. Even the famously RGM crappy Kirk is shooting FG .460 and 3FG .350. And that is low for Kirks 3 ball since his career average is .378 and his best year was .415

Nicks mental development this year as been... AMAZING. He is being coachable.

ok...

so Nick for most of his career has been averaging 15-16 fga/36. the problem is that he's never been able to play 36 mins. this isn't because coaches were holding him back, or anything like that. it was because he was clueless on defense, and if you left him in there too long, he'd just jack shots - bad shots. this season, finally, he's playing within himself to play 36 effective mins. great. now you're saying "well if he's handling 16 fga/game efficiently, why not laden him with 20 fga? nate is suggesting 18 fga in a Jamison-esque role.

i'm saying... he's not good enough (yet)! he's not wade/kobe/durant/ellis. he DOESN'T shake people off by himself. the only reason he's SO OPEN this season is because he's NOT trying to shake himself loose by himself. He's coming off screens, moving without the ball, and basically being a prototypical SG.

i don't even think he's ready for 18 fga, honestly. Jamison was a proven scorer. we would iso Jamison when things weren't working out. he wouldn't draw a LOT of fouls, but at least 5-6. Nick is going at what... 2-3 FTA/game right now? /game and /36?

furthermore, just because you remember him having 1 post up play doesn't mean he can post up effectively. that's just not his role in the offense. to make Nick a 20fga player requires a drastic overhaul of what nick is doing right now and frankly, that should NOT happen. Why can't we just be happy with what Nick is doing right now? why can't we manage our expectations and say "hey... a shooting guard who's hustling on defense and scoring 16-18 on 15fga is pretty damn good especially considering where he was last season" and not hitch our wagon to the idea that Nick Young will be our offensive savior?

then you talk about keeping humble. well it's hard to be humble when after one good shooting performance, you have people saying "he deserves kobe/wade/durant touches".

[nate33]

i REALLY don't think we can expect so much development from N1 so quick. there are people on this board (fish?) who still aren't convinced Nick's turned a corner now. yet there are others who want to increase his minutes, AND increase his per-minute production? i dunno. to me that's just asking too much. i'd be happy if mcgee can just get up to his per-36 numbers as it is, without any fga/min increases etc.

His minutes are already up.

Jan 36.6 with games of 40, 39, 45 (OT)

For those that watched the game last night, they got to witnessed was a break out game by him. Nick will need to stay focused and humble so he doesn't get to ahead of himself, but now he knows he can do it vs just thinking he can. And just as important, his teammates and coaches know it and so do other teams and coaches. Now you have to game plan for him even more and that will open up things for more players as long as they put the ball in his hands first and there are other options like Lewis on the floor with him. Even the famously RGM crappy Kirk is shooting FG .460 and 3FG .350. And that is low for Kirks 3 ball since his career average is .378 and his best year was .415

Nicks mental development this year as been... AMAZING. He is being coachable.

Here's a list of all swing men who average at least 14 shots per 36 minutes, sorted by FGA/min. Young ranks 10th on the list so it's not like he's not getting shots up. However, If you look at his efficiency, you can make a case that he probably deserves a few more shots.

The four guys immediately ahead of him (Evans, Rip, Jamison, Granger) shoot a bit more at a notably lower TS%. The five guys ahead of them are the elite scorers (Lebron, Martin, Wade, Melo and Kobe) and all maintain about the same TS% as Nick but with a higher volume (except Anthony who's been rather inefficient this year).

There are only a handful of guys with fewer attempts than Nick who shoot with greater efficiency: JRich, Manu and Chandler.

One must also consider that these numbers came out immediately after the best game of Nick's career. Prior to yesterday, his TS% hovered around .530 rather than it's current .564

[nate33]

ok...

so Nick for most of his career has been averaging 15-16 fga/36. the problem is that he's never been able to play 36 mins. this isn't because coaches were holding him back, or anything like that. it was because he was clueless on defense, and if you left him in there too long, he'd just jack shots - bad shots. this season, finally, he's playing within himself to play 36 effective mins. great. now you're saying "well if he's handling 16 fga/game efficiently, why not laden him with 20 fga? nate is suggesting 18 fga in a Jamison-esque role.

i'm saying... he's not good enough (yet)! he's not wade/kobe/durant/ellis. he DOESN'T shake people off by himself. the only reason he's SO OPEN this season is because he's NOT trying to shake himself loose by himself. He's coming off screens, moving without the ball, and basically being a prototypical SG.

i don't even think he's ready for 18 fga, honestly. Jamison was a proven scorer. we would iso Jamison when things weren't working out. he wouldn't draw a LOT of fouls, but at least 5-6. Nick is going at what... 2-3 FTA/game right now? /game and /36?

furthermore, just because you remember him having 1 post up play doesn't mean he can post up effectively. that's just not his role in the offense. to make Nick a 20fga player requires a drastic overhaul of what nick is doing right now and frankly, that should NOT happen. Why can't we just be happy with what Nick is doing right now? why can't we manage our expectations and say "hey... a shooting guard who's hustling on defense and scoring 16-18 on 15fga is pretty damn good especially considering where he was last season" and not hitch our wagon to the idea that Nick Young will be our offensive savior?

then you talk about keeping humble. well it's hard to be humble when after one good shooting performance, you have people saying "he deserves kobe/wade/durant touches".

Fair points, all.

It really boils down to the concept that someone has to do the shooting. As it stands now, the shots that Nick aren't taking seem to default to either Blatche or Wall, who have a TS% of .474 and .496 respectively. I think all Hands11 is saying is that it would be prudent to redistribute some of those shots taken by Wall and Blatche and give them to Young. I understand your concern that each additional shot forcefed to Young is likely to come at a lower efficiency than his current average, and I think that's true. But nevertheless, even if those additional attempts come at a TS% of, say, .510, it's still better than them coming from Wall or Blatche.

On a side note, I think Rashard could handle a few extra shot attempts as well.

[pancakes3]

i'll agree with Shard gobbling up those extra shots. i'd much rather him take on the "blatche" role in the offense and make AB the odd man out of our offense. pick and pops with rashard lewis instead of AB? awesome. Iso's from the wing? Lewis would shoot over every SF and beat any PF off the dribble. You leave AB wandering in the middle setting picks for Young, and only getting the ball when he has good positioning or a mismatch.

it'd be a relatively easy swap since that's Shard's game anyway. drain kick outs, shooting over shorter players, and blowing past bigger players. it'd be better for AB's development also because it forces him to get down low and give us an interior scoring presence, finally. AND HE HAS TO DO IT BECAUSE WE OWN HIS @SS, CONTRACTUALLY. MUAH HAH HAH.

i'm REALLY hesitant about giving N1 too much. he's already probably sniffin his own drawers a little too much as evidenced by his jersey antics last night. he's GOT to stay humble and realize he's just a poor man's reggie miller right now, and that's playing PERFECTLY. the second he deviates from what he's doing, he reverts to N1 of seasons past and useless.

[nate33]

Posted this in the Trade Thread but I'd like to have it here since this is the default thread for tracking Young's progress:

As of now, there are only 12 guys in the league who score as much as Nick on a per-minute basis with a TS% equal or greater. If he keeps this up all year, a fair case can be made that he's a serviceable #1 offensive threat on any team, and a high quality #2 offensive threat on any team. Throw in the fact that he's a two way player and one might consider him to be a, gulp, star-caliber player.

[hands11]

ok...

so Nick for most of his career has been averaging 15-16 fga/36. the problem is that he's never been able to play 36 mins. this isn't because coaches were holding him back, or anything like that. it was because he was clueless on defense, and if you left him in there too long, he'd just jack shots - bad shots. this season, finally, he's playing within himself to play 36 effective mins. great. now you're saying "well if he's handling 16 fga/game efficiently, why not laden him with 20 fga? nate is suggesting 18 fga in a Jamison-esque role.

i'm saying... he's not good enough (yet)! he's not wade/kobe/durant/ellis. he DOESN'T shake people off by himself. the only reason he's SO OPEN this season is because he's NOT trying to shake himself loose by himself. He's coming off screens, moving without the ball, and basically being a prototypical SG.

i don't even think he's ready for 18 fga, honestly. Jamison was a proven scorer. we would iso Jamison when things weren't working out. he wouldn't draw a LOT of fouls, but at least 5-6. Nick is going at what... 2-3 FTA/game right now? /game and /36?

furthermore, just because you remember him having 1 post up play doesn't mean he can post up effectively. that's just not his role in the offense. to make Nick a 20fga player requires a drastic overhaul of what nick is doing right now and frankly, that should NOT happen. Why can't we just be happy with what Nick is doing right now? why can't we manage our expectations and say "hey... a shooting guard who's hustling on defense and scoring 16-18 on 15fga is pretty damn good especially considering where he was last season" and not hitch our wagon to the idea that Nick Young will be our offensive savior?

then you talk about keeping humble. well it's hard to be humble when after one good shooting performance, you have people saying "he deserves kobe/wade/durant touches".

Fair points, all.

It really boils down to the concept that someone has to do the shooting. As it stands now, the shots that Nick aren't taking seem to default to either Blatche or Wall, who have a TS% of .474 and .496 respectively. I think all Hands11 is saying is that it would be prudent to redistribute some of those shots taken by Wall and Blatche and give them to Young. I understand your concern that each additional shot forcefed to Young is likely to come at a lower efficiency than his current average, and I think that's true. But nevertheless, even if those additional attempts come at a TS% of, say, .510, it's still better than them coming from Wall or Blatche.

On a side note, I think Rashard could handle a few extra shot attempts as well.

Thanks Nate. That was exactly the points I was attempting to make. Efficiency by redistribution.

Sounds like it makes sense, right ?

Add to it the link I provided with the SG guard numbers that showed Ellis's numbers and how Nicks minutes are already up and how that compares to other top scorers.

Can he keep it up ? I see no signs currently that show he can't.
He has been steady as a back up SG and got settled into that. Than they moved him to starter and he has been getting settled into that. He was due for a break out. And now he did that. He has been working on taking on the challenge of being more physical as other team are being that way with him. Check. Now he has to mentally deal with the success. Some people can't handle success. They are better while trying to get there. It's the difference between being motivated by trying to prove you belong and finding other motivations to keep you going once you have. Some people let up once they prove it or they get full of themselves. You have to keep setting new goals. I'm sure Flip and Sam are working with him on that. Steady as she goes Nick.

[dobrojim]

in the game thread someone posted that his per is only 15.7 or some such

I'd be curious to know what it is as a starter

and I forget, does PER attempt to measure defense?

FWIW, I've liked N1 for a while and have felt that for reasons that
were never clear to me, he's always gotten jerked around wrt playing time.
There may have been valid reasons for this that I am unaware of.

When he has just been put out there and allowed to play, he's gotten
steadily better esp wrt consistency.

last thing - I didn't see the whole take off your jersey thing.
I'm not a big fan of that kind of behavior but I am willing to
overlook it at times. I always liked the Berry Sanders approach,
after scoring a TD just hand the ball to the ref, like you expect
to be doing it again soon.