Discussing Other NBA Games 2.0

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Lin had to learn to play with Amare, Carmelo, JR Smith, and start in front of Baron Davis. He has had all the media scrutiny of any athlete IN THE WORLD. I know he just moved to a new apartment. I could probably find out how many hours sleep Jeremy Lin gets, as no doubt paparazzi are outside his door.

As for what happened today, the Heat shut him down in Miami. Lin had a miserable game. He seemed totally exhausted by the end of the game--his passes had nothing on them and his handle was very loose. He could not make a shot and seemed terribly frustrated.

All that said the guy has had 2 weeks for all this to go down and he played against a motivated Heat team. Dwyane Wade said Lin is good and deserves all the attention he has received.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Lin came close to a double double, 8 points and 8 turnovers. 1-11 from the field, 3 assists.... if Wall had a game like that this board would flip out.

We'd have the amazingly sucky John Wall thread, complete with JJ calling Wall the B' word, hands saying Wall is an idiot and too much like Gilbert and CCJ reminding us how great it would have been if the Wizards listened to him and traded Wall for Cousins and a pick instead.

Lin IS a good NBA player but I don't think he was ever the savior that NY and the media were starting to make him out to be. He doesn't make NY a contender and he's really benefited from a combination of perfect timing and an ideal PG friendly system that fits his skillset nicely.

Lin is a great story considering he was on the verge of getting cut but he's not an elite player and it was unfair to make him out to be one.

Up until 3 weeks ago a lot of people were calling Wall a bust. He still got his ass handed to him by Isaiah Thomas in the fourth quarter at Verizon, when the game mattered.

I said I would take Cousins and a pick for Wall and the next season I said I would take Irving and a pick for Wall. I would STILL do the second deal and wouldn't be too upset with the first.

John Wall is a great player but he's just now showing it. You want to talk about Cousin's poor effective field goal percentage, but you do not want to talk about his rebounding. You do not want to talk about his double doubles. You do not want to look at the comments he made yesterday about his teammate, Chuck Hayes. No. You said Cousins was a team cancer. Some team cancer--he would rather watch as his teammate got it done.

Cousins might very well turn on Coach Smart and get him fired. Cousins might have some really bad outburst. But the bottom line is if you check his team's record, his win score, his PER, and the ability he has to impact games he's arguably better than Wall.

Dat, I like Wall ... now.

[willbcocks]

CCJ: Cousins and a pick likely would have been available and was an interesting argument, but Irving and a pick? I doubt Cleveland was offering us the 1 and 4 for Wall, so that's a bit of a strawman.

You're right that Lin's handle was bad in the Miami game, but it's always seemed pretty weak to me. He has an excellent first dribble where he leans his whole body, and he can do that in either direction, but otherwise he struggles going left.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

CCJ: Cousins and a pick likely would have been available and was an interesting argument, but Irving and a pick? I doubt Cleveland was offering us the 1 and 4 for Wall, so that's a bit of a strawman.

You're right that Lin's handle was bad in the Miami game, but it's always seemed pretty weak to me. He has an excellent first dribble where he leans his whole body, and he can do that in either direction, but otherwise he struggles going left.

I agree with you, willbcocks, that Cleveland wouldn't have given up both 2011 draft pick (#1 and #4) for Wall. However, I do think they might have given up Irving and their 2012 1st round pick (top 3-5 protected) for Wall. In this draft, if held today Cleveland would have the #10 pick. In theory, the Wizards could have exchanged Irving plus someone like Arnett Moulrie or Tyler Zeller for Wall.

It's all speculation and I respect Dat a bunch. I just don't think he can say with certainty trading for either of those guys and a pick is worse than having John Wall.

On Jeremy Lin, you're right about him on both counts, IMO. His handle is a bit loose and he doesn't go to his left nearly as well as his right. The Heat scouted him and forced him repeatedly to his weakness. Other teams do not defend that well. Also, I think JR Smith and Iman Shumpert need to help handle the ball more when Lin is under duress.

The Knicks are still way better in a short amount of time, and Lin is no fluke.

[closg00]

Lin had to learn to play with Amare, Carmelo, JR Smith, and start in front of Baron Davis. He has had all the media scrutiny of any athlete IN THE WORLD. I know he just moved to a new apartment. I could probably find out how many hours sleep Jeremy Lin gets, as no doubt paparazzi are outside his door.

As for what happened today, the Heat shut him down in Miami. Lin had a miserable game. He seemed totally exhausted by the end of the game--his passes had nothing on them and his handle was very loose. He could not make a shot and seemed terribly frustrated.

All that said the guy has had 2 weeks for all this to go down and he played against a motivated Heat team. Dwyane Wade said Lin is good and deserves all the attention he has received.

That was the most intense game I've seen all year, the ferocity on both sides was impressive.
Later I was wondering which Western team might be able to slow this Heat team down in the finals. Miami still looks like they can be exploited in a slowed-down half-court game against a team with a bigger front-court. It's a also interesting that the Bucks have beaten Miami twice.

[Ruzious]

Lin came close to a double double, 8 points and 8 turnovers. 1-11 from the field, 3 assists.... if Wall had a game like that this board would flip out.

We'd have the amazingly sucky John Wall thread, complete with JJ calling Wall the B' word, hands saying Wall is an idiot and too much like Gilbert and CCJ reminding us how great it would have been if the Wizards listened to him and traded Wall for Cousins and a pick instead.

Lin IS a good NBA player but I don't think he was ever the savior that NY and the media were starting to make him out to be. He doesn't make NY a contender and he's really benefited from a combination of perfect timing and an ideal PG friendly system that fits his skillset nicely.

Lin is a great story considering he was on the verge of getting cut but he's not an elite player and it was unfair to make him out to be one.

Up until 3 weeks ago a lot of people were calling Wall a bust. He still got his ass handed to him by Isaiah Thomas in the fourth quarter at Verizon, when the game mattered.

I said I would take Cousins and a pick for Wall and the next season I said I would take Irving and a pick for Wall. I would STILL do the second deal and wouldn't be too upset with the first.

John Wall is a great player but he's just now showing it. You want to talk about Cousin's poor effective field goal percentage, but you do not want to talk about his rebounding. You do not want to talk about his double doubles. You do not want to look at the comments he made yesterday about his teammate, Chuck Hayes. No. You said Cousins was a team cancer. Some team cancer--he would rather watch as his teammate got it done.

Cousins might very well turn on Coach Smart and get him fired. Cousins might have some really bad outburst. But the bottom line is if you check his team's record, his win score, his PER, and the ability he has to impact games he's arguably better than Wall.

Dat, I like Wall ... now.

John Wall has changed less than most players his age. It's just your view of him that varies wildly from game to game.

I think Lin will be a solid NBA starter, but he's got to adjust to teams now playing him to stop him from going to his right. He's got to make that adjustment mid-season at the NBA level - at least against teams that are capable of using scouting reports - which might not include the Wizards.

[tontoz]

Up until 3 weeks ago a lot of people were calling Wall a bust. .

Like who?

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Like who, tontoz? Others around the league who are not Wizard homers, who have turned a blind eye to Wall's faults and the Wizards terrible record. They're probably more objective about Wall.

Here are a few who have debated whether Wall is a bust:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/1022 ... -be-a-bust

(This was written 5 weeks ago, before Wall really turned things around)

The biggest problem with Wall is that he almost never outplays the person he is matched up with. Here’s a brief list of the opposing players that have outplayed Wall this season: Ricky Rubio, John Lucas, Luke Ridnour, Deron Williams, Rajon Rondo and Brandon Jennings. Opposing starting point guards are averaging 13.3 points per game and 7.3 assists per game compared to Wall’s 13.4 PPG and 7.1 APG.

That stat is even more telling when you consider it 1) doesn’t factor in Rubio’s performance since Rubio did not start against the Wizards, and 2) does factor in Toney Douglas’ zero-point, zero-assist performance that occurred when the Wizards played the New York Knicks.

Wall often gets outplayed by the opposition because at this stage in his career he is not only a terrible offensive player—his speed in the open court cannot make up for the fact that he lacks the ball-handling skills of an elite point guard and is a terrible shooter from both the perimeter and around the paint—he is also a terrible defensive player. As a result, he labors to score, making each basket come across as a Herculean triumph, while opposing guards score easily against him.

Here are links to others who wondered whether Wall is a bust:

http://clippertalk.com/topic/john-wall-bust
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showth ... 381&page=2
http://www.sodahead.com/entertainment/i ... n-1446455/
http://malaysia.answers.yahoo.com/quest ... 627AAvbVjM
http://slumz.boxden.com/f16/john-wall-n ... h-1676981/

***I wondered as well based on what he did last season, and this season up until 3 weeks ago.

Look at Wall's shooting in the 50 losses he played in last season (see 2011 splits below). You will see he shot sub 40%. (This is just his offense, and not even the defensive matchup data that would show how opposing PGs did). He had a rough start for the number 1 overall pick last season.

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... lits/2011/

If you look at his December and January splits from this season, Wall still struggled. I really worried that he didn't seem to have improved any from last season, based on what I saw early this season, in December and January.

However, Wall has had a TREMENDOUS February. Thus, the last three weeks he has been great.

(See John Wall's February 2012 splits, below. Wow, what a difference!)

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... lits/2012/

Ruzious, my opinion changed when Wall's game got better. He showed me something I had not seen from him. He CAN play efficiently on offense and he can lead well.

I am going to say what I feel about Wall, right and wrong, but I will give you my reasons for saying what I do. My opinions don't fluctuate wildly like a mood swing. No. His game has gotten better, Ruz.

[tontoz]

Actually i was asking about who on this board. The people here actually watch the games.

Secondly i don't know why you are referencing his play last year as evidence of possibly being a bust since Wall played well the last 3 months of the season.

His weak start this season was obviously, as i said repeatedly at the time, due at least in part to the lockout. Common sense dictated that the lockout and small sample size of games made it ridiculous to jump to conclusions. That didn't stop some people though.

[tontoz]

During the last 3 months of last season here are Wall's numbers

Feb 16.5/8/5
March 18/7/5
April 19/6/6

He shot 40% or better in each of those months. And he was playing hurt. Sure looked like a bust.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Other guards who were lighting him up in December and January were locked out, too, tontoz.

I thought John Wall started out last season with a few very strong games early, but went into a terrible slump after some injury issues. I don't recall him playing well the last three months. What I think is the last three weeks the light definitely came on with Wall.

To get back on topic, I think the Lin publicity and John Wall's game against Lin happened somewhere in the time frame where Wall really started playing well.

[tontoz]

Other guards who were lighting him up in December and January were locked out, too, tontoz.

I thought John Wall started out last season with a few very strong games early, but went into a terrible slump after some injury issues. I don't recall him playing well the last three months. What I think is the last three weeks the light definitely came on with Wall.

To get back on topic, I think the Lin publicity and John Wall's game against Lin happened somewhere in the time frame where Wall really started playing well.

Let's try this again,

During the last 3 months of last season here are Wall's numbers

Feb 16.5/8/5
March 18/7/5
April 19/6/6

He shot 40% or better in each of those months. And he was playing hurt. Sure looked like a bust.

What part of these numbers made you think he was a possible bust?

[tontoz]

Other guards who were lighting him up in December and January were locked out, too, tontoz.

.

First of all i don't see how giving up 13/7 is considered getting lit up.

Opposing starting point guards are averaging 13.3 points per game and 7.3 assists per game compared to Wall’s 13.4 PPG and 7.1 APG.

Secondly getting locked out isn't going to have much affect on vets or Euro players.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Look, this all started out with two people accusing me. I said people called him a bust until recently and I backed that up with a bunch of links. You can take issue with their opinions but you cannot argue I backed up what I said. I also showed a dramatic improvement over the past 3 weeks.

This is all I have to say about Wall:

I didn't like his game and wondered if he was a bust until recently. I am not the only one who feels that way. I am not a homer, nor am I a blind Wall hater. His play is much better recently. He also has made some great comments following losses that show me he gets it and does have emerging leadership skills.

[tontoz]

Look, this all started out with two people accusing me. I said people called him a bust until recently and I backed that up with a bunch of links. You can take issue with their opinions but you cannot argue I backed up what I said. I also showed a dramatic improvement over the past 3 weeks.

This is all I have to say about Wall:

I didn't like his game and wondered if he was a bust until recently. I am not the only one who feels that way. I am not a homer, nor am I a blind Wall hater. His play is much better recently. He also has made some great comments following losses that show me he gets it and does have emerging leadership skills.

So you wondered if he was a bust even though..

During the last 3 months of last season here are Wall's numbers

Feb 16.5/8/5
March 18/7/5
April 19/6/6

i think that clearly shows your bias.

[tontoz]

It should also be noted that WAll averaged 16.6/7.3/5.5 last month shooting 41.4%. That isn't exactly bust territory for a 2nd year player.

[tontoz]

Here are links to others who wondered whether Wall is a bust:

http://clippertalk.com/topic/john-wall-bust
http://www.insidehoops.com/forum/showth ... 381&page=2
http://www.sodahead.com/entertainment/i ... n-1446455/
http://malaysia.answers.yahoo.com/quest ... 627AAvbVjM
http://slumz.boxden.com/f16/john-wall-n ... h-1676981/

Did you even read those links you posted?

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

NO, I didn't

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

It should also be noted that WAll averaged 16.6/7.3/5.5 last month shooting 41.4%. That isn't exactly bust territory for a 2nd year player.

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fa ... /11/30/432

Those matchup data are from his rookie season. He won 24 matchup and lost 32. If you note what Wall shot you should also note what his opposing PGs shot, tontoz. Wall's greatest rookie performances came against Will Bynum, Ish Smith, and Derrick Fisher. He had understandably rough outings against Calderon, Westbrook, Nash, Curry, and Rondo.

John Wall was the #1 overall pick, so any talk of him being a bust would be relative to where he was picked and relative to the expectations placed upon him at draft time. For the most part, Wall had an unimpressive rookie season.

[tontoz]

It should also be noted that WAll averaged 16.6/7.3/5.5 last month shooting 41.4%. That isn't exactly bust territory for a 2nd year player.

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fa ... /11/30/432

Those matchup data are from his rookie season. He won 24 matchup and lost 32. If you note what Wall shot you should also note what his opposing PGs shot, tontoz. Wall's greatest rookie performances came against Will Bynum, Ish Smith, and Derrick Fisher. He had understandably rough outings against Calderon, Westbrook, Nash, Curry, and Rondo.

John Wall was the #1 overall pick, so any talk of him being a bust would be relative to where he was picked and relative to the expectations placed upon him at draft time. For the most part, Wall had an unimpressive rookie season.

He won 24 and lost 32....BFD.

What was clear to me is that he played far better in the 2nd half of the season than the first. He didn't even look like the same player. He played well consistently for the last 3 months. He didn't look anything remotely like a bust. And lets not forget that he was playing hurt for much of the season.

An unimpressive rookie season relative to who exactly? He averaged 16.4 ppg and was 7th in the league in assists per game. He had a higher PER and a higher TS% than your boy Cousins. I don't remember you saying Cousins was looking like a bust. I wonder why.