Political Roundtable Part XIII

[popper]

Our political differences and values (conservative vs. progressive) are on opposite ends of the spectrum. This yawning divide prevents both ideologies an opportunity to achieve their desired policy outcomes. Just curious, would my progressive friends here support splitting the country in two or more nations based on ideology (assuming it was even possible)? I would in a heart beat. I respect those on my political left but I'd like my kids to be able to pursue a future consistent with their belief system and I assume progressives would want to do the same. Otherwise gridlock prevails. Maybe the angst in CA and their desire to secede might actually be an impetus to seriously look at separation.

I would think it most certainly lead to another civil war...

If it was desired by both parties and negotiated with mutual respect there would be no need for a civil war.

[Kanyewest]

Read on Twitter

Freedom! Democracy!

This is depressing.

From Fox News.

Read on Twitter

[dckingsfan]

Our political differences and values (conservative vs. progressive) are on opposite ends of the spectrum. This yawning divide prevents both ideologies an opportunity to achieve their desired policy outcomes. Just curious, would my progressive friends here support splitting the country in two or more nations based on ideology (assuming it was even possible)? I would in a heart beat. I respect those on my political left but I'd like my kids to be able to pursue a future consistent with their belief system and I assume progressives would want to do the same. Otherwise gridlock prevails. Maybe the angst in CA and their desire to secede might actually be an impetus to seriously look at separation.

I would think it most certainly lead to another civil war...

If it was desired by both parties and negotiated with mutual respect there would be no need for a civil war.

So, you are a liberal in a red state. Or you are a conservative in a blue state. There would be no respectful dialog for those.

[popper]

I would think it most certainly lead to another civil war...

If it was desired by both parties and negotiated with mutual respect there would be no need for a civil war.

So, you are a liberal in a red state. Or you are a conservative in a blue state. There would be no respectful dialog for those.

Why? I've had respectful dialog with progressives here for seven years. Before that, for decades in my other interactions.

[DCZards]

Our political differences and values (conservative vs. progressive) are on opposite ends of the spectrum. This yawning divide prevents both ideologies an opportunity to achieve their desired policy outcomes. Just curious, would my progressive friends here support splitting the country in two or more nations based on ideology (assuming it was even possible)? I would in a heart beat. I respect those on my political left but I'd like my kids to be able to pursue a future consistent with their belief system and I assume progressives would want to do the same. Otherwise gridlock prevails. Maybe the angst in CA and their desire to secede might actually be an impetus to seriously look at separation.

I would think it most certainly lead to another civil war...

If it was desired by both parties and negotiated with mutual respect there would be no need for a civil war.

I think this notion that the country is deeply divided between left and right is blown out of proportion. I believe most Americans are moderates or in the middle politically...depending upon the issue. Those people would find this idea to divide the country based on politics ridiculous, imo.

[popper]

I would think it most certainly lead to another civil war...

If it was desired by both parties and negotiated with mutual respect there would be no need for a civil war.

I think this notion that the country is deeply divided between left and right is blown out of proportion. I believe most Americans are moderates or in the middle politically...depending upon the issue. Those people would find this idea to divide the country based on politics ridiculous, imo.

Well there are millions of CA progressives that are "ridiculous" then.


California Dreamin’? Many in Golden State Want to Secede From Trump’s U.S.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/california-dreamin-many-golden-state-want-secede-trump-s-u-n681796

California’s Secession Movement Gains Traction in Wake of Trump’s Election

http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/444357/california-secession-movement-support-increases-state-resists-trump-administration

[tontoz]

I think this notion that the country is deeply divided between left and right is blown out of proportion. I believe most Americans are moderates or in the middle politically...depending upon the issue. Those people would find this idea to divide the country based on politics ridiculous, imo.

Agreed. I don't feel like either party represents me at all.

I can't help but feel like the two party system really doesn't work. Instead of working towards the best interests of the country it is all about beating the other side.

[bsilver]

Our political differences and values (conservative vs. progressive) are on opposite ends of the spectrum. This yawning divide prevents both ideologies an opportunity to achieve their desired policy outcomes. Just curious, would my progressive friends here support splitting the country in two or more nations based on ideology (assuming it was even possible)? I would in a heart beat. I respect those on my political left but I'd like my kids to be able to pursue a future consistent with their belief system and I assume progressives would want to do the same. Otherwise gridlock prevails. Maybe the angst in CA and their desire to secede might actually be an impetus to seriously look at separation.

I think there is a false assumption in your question. If we divide politically there's not just two groups. There's at least three, and people in the middle would probably want their own country.

There's also a lot of people with little or no interest in politics. Their main desire may be to live in a warm place, or near the ocean, or in a city, or the country. Others want to be where's there's a job.

All that aside, today, anyone with strong political beliefs can choose to live with others of like minded beliefs. Last year we moved to New Haven, CT to be near family. We chose to live in the city which is very liberal and diverse. We could have lived 20 minutes away and been in almost all white conservative community. Others can also choose a place to live based on politics.

[sfam]

Really great but long read:

Read on Twitter

The cover is amazing!

[sfam]

That was our country at one time. So was slavery. So was the massacre of the Indians.

Certainly we have made a lot of progress since then but a lot of people were needlessly killed along the way. I am not seeing similar progress in Muslim countries. They have far less diversity and far more ethnic conflicts.

If they can't get along peacefully with each other I see no reason why I should expect them to assimilate peacefully here. I have no problem with more vetting in regards to Muslim immigration, although Trump's handling of the issue certainly leaves something to be desired.

He is a bit nuts himself with a laundry list of character flaws, but that doesn't mean he is wrong about everything.

You keep bypassing the essential point - Muslims have been here since before the Revolutionary War. They are already ingrained fabric of Americana.

We could say the same thing about all Latin Americans - its been "Big Men" rule there for generations. I see no reason that those Christians, who clearly can't get along peacefully with each other should assimilate peacefully here.

This is like blaming White Vans for the DC Sniper attacks. You're sort of blaming the wrong thing. Muslims are integrating fine in the US. The only problem with integration - Muslims or otherwise - is alienation. By overtly supporting policies to alienate and ostracize them, you actually create the violent extremists you are concerned of. This is what the research shows quite clearly.

And its strange - not too long ago Republicans talked of American exceptionalism. Trump regularly bashes the US. "We've made progress since then" is a really far fall from the shining city on the hill. We've made more than progress - our values and way of living have been a beacon for the world specifically because of our notions of meritocracy - meaning even a Muslim potentially could come here and become successful.

[closg00]

Read on Twitter

Freedom! Democracy!

This is what Fascism looks like, straight-up. Mussolini, Hitler, Pinchot, and other Dictators enjoyed support amongst their population during their rule, Trump will be no exception, "the base" will love to this.

[popper]

Our political differences and values (conservative vs. progressive) are on opposite ends of the spectrum. This yawning divide prevents both ideologies an opportunity to achieve their desired policy outcomes. Just curious, would my progressive friends here support splitting the country in two or more nations based on ideology (assuming it was even possible)? I would in a heart beat. I respect those on my political left but I'd like my kids to be able to pursue a future consistent with their belief system and I assume progressives would want to do the same. Otherwise gridlock prevails. Maybe the angst in CA and their desire to secede might actually be an impetus to seriously look at separation.

I think there is a false assumption in your question. If we divide politically there's not just two groups. There's at least three, and people in the middle would probably want their own country.

There's also a lot of people with little or no interest in politics. Their main desire may be to live in a warm place, or near the ocean, or in a city, or the country. Others want to be where's there's a job.

All that aside, today, anyone with strong political beliefs can choose to live with others of like minded beliefs. Last year we moved to New Haven, CT to be near family. We chose to live in the city which is very liberal and diverse. We could have lived 20 minutes away and been in almost all white conservative community. Others can also choose a place to live based on politics.

Yeah. I described the two poles and then noted a possible separation into "two or more nations".

[sfam]

Our political differences and values (conservative vs. progressive) are on opposite ends of the spectrum. This yawning divide prevents both ideologies an opportunity to achieve their desired policy outcomes. Just curious, would my progressive friends here support splitting the country in two or more nations based on ideology (assuming it was even possible)? I would in a heart beat. I respect those on my political left but I'd like my kids to be able to pursue a future consistent with their belief system and I assume progressives would want to do the same. Otherwise gridlock prevails. Maybe the angst in CA and their desire to secede might actually be an impetus to seriously look at separation.

Muslim Americans and Christian Americans, Republicans and Democrats all:

- follow most traffic rules. This is not common almost anywhere.
- watch the Superbowl, including the ads.
- eat tacos
- stay in line in retail stores and shopping markets. This is not common almost anywhere
- take their kids to play soccer, sometime around 5 or 6, and worry about providing the right snacks
- largely believe in the rule of law
- want to feel safe in their homes at night
- want their kids to do better than they have
- believe America should be a beacon for the rest of the world
- hate politicians
- hate the news media
- hate spam phone calls
- want their kids to go to college and have wonderful lives
- want to have grandkids

In terms of your approach, what about Austin Texas? What about all the liberals living in Montana? We're Americans first. That which binds us as Americans - our culture - really is a shared entity. Something as simple as following traffic laws or lining up at a McDonalds are truly American, and shared by all who live here.

There really is a shared way of life that those who come here learn and adhere to. Just travel abroad widely and it hits you in the face. We're doing our level best to break this country apart, but its gonna take a while.

[sfam]

Read on Twitter

Freedom! Democracy!

This is what Fascism looks like, straight-up. Mussolini, Hitler, Pinchot, and other Dictators enjoyed support amongst their population during their rule, Trump will be no exception, "the base" will love to this.

Well, if Jake Tapper ends up getting poisoned with Vx, I think you'll have a stronger argument.

[montestewart]

Our political differences and values (conservative vs. progressive) are on opposite ends of the spectrum. This yawning divide prevents both ideologies an opportunity to achieve their desired policy outcomes. Just curious, would my progressive friends here support splitting the country in two or more nations based on ideology (assuming it was even possible)? I would in a heart beat. I respect those on my political left but I'd like my kids to be able to pursue a future consistent with their belief system and I assume progressives would want to do the same. Otherwise gridlock prevails. Maybe the angst in CA and their desire to secede might actually be an impetus to seriously look at separation.

I think there is a false assumption in your question. If we divide politically there's not just two groups. There's at least three, and people in the middle would probably want their own country.

There's also a lot of people with little or no interest in politics. Their main desire may be to live in a warm place, or near the ocean, or in a city, or the country. Others want to be where's there's a job.

All that aside, today, anyone with strong political beliefs can choose to live with others of like minded beliefs. Last year we moved to New Haven, CT to be near family. We chose to live in the city which is very liberal and diverse. We could have lived 20 minutes away and been in almost all white conservative community. Others can also choose a place to live based on politics.

Yeah. I described the two poles and then noted a possible separation into "two or more nations".

Tricky and krii?

[tontoz]

That was our country at one time. So was slavery. So was the massacre of the Indians.

Certainly we have made a lot of progress since then but a lot of people were needlessly killed along the way. I am not seeing similar progress in Muslim countries. They have far less diversity and far more ethnic conflicts.

If they can't get along peacefully with each other I see no reason why I should expect them to assimilate peacefully here. I have no problem with more vetting in regards to Muslim immigration, although Trump's handling of the issue certainly leaves something to be desired.

He is a bit nuts himself with a laundry list of character flaws, but that doesn't mean he is wrong about everything.

You keep bypassing the essential point - Muslims have been here since before the Revolutionary War. They are already ingrained fabric of Americana.

We could say the same thing about all Latin Americans - its been "Big Men" rule there for generations. I see no reason that those Christians, who clearly can't get along peacefully with each other should assimilate peacefully here.

This is like blaming White Vans for the DC Sniper attacks. You're sort of blaming the wrong thing. Muslims are integrating fine in the US. The only problem with integration - Muslims or otherwise - is alienation. By overtly supporting policies to alienate and ostracize them, you actually create the violent extremists you are concerned of. This is what the research shows quite clearly.

And its strange - not too long ago Republicans talked of American exceptionalism. Trump regularly bashes the US. "We've made progress since then" is a really far fall from the shining city on the hill. We've made more than progress - our values and way of living have been a beacon for the world specifically because of our notions of meritocracy - meaning even a Muslim potentially could come here and become successful.

Lol Muslims are 1 percent of the population. They are such a small minority that they can't start making demands.

But if we had truly open borders how long would it be before that changed? Judging by what I am seeing overseas it wouldn't take long, not to mention the murders they have committed here.

[Wizardspride]

Yeah, don't think I like the road we're going down....

Read on Twitter

Read on Twitter

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

Freedom! Democracy!

Read on Twitter

[payitforward]

Actually I've decided to start here in the US with people like you. Diversity and multiculturalism is a good thing. Our nation is a country of immigrants. This is our strength.

So if it is a good thing then why are those countries fighting all the time? I guess it is only a good thing when it is convenient for you.

Were down to nonsense statements here. Really not sure what you intended with this, but, um, OK.

Dang! You put a bonehead on Ignore, but you still see his posts when someone quotes them. Hey... I guess the world isn't perfect, is it?

As far as what he "intended," that's easy. He didn't "intend" anything at all. Just an empty-headed blow-hard: the sound you hear is the wind whistling between his ears.

Oh wait a minute... I'm on a break from this thread! See you'all in some days. Actually, maybe not for a couple of weeks, as I'm off to Europe for a while. They got some a&&holes there too, btw! Fight the good fight, sfam. Or, even better, don't waste your time!

[sfam]

Apparently my delusion is spreading

Read on Twitter

Who could've guessed that Trump was creating a policy without an actual intelligence basis? I'm Shocked! Shocked! to find out the intelligence community thinks this is a horrible idea!

What is not so shocking is that the Trump administration has tried to axe the actual intelligence assessment.

"I already told you the answer! Now give me intelligence to meet the fake facts!" Delusional indeed.

Someone certainly is delusional here, but it appears the intelligence community is slowly getting them aware of reality, leak by leak....

EDIT: Actual document here