Political Roundtable Part XXII

[Zonkerbl]

I think it's inevitable that peasants eventually rise up against tyrants and I think in the us that will happen sooner than you think.

[stilldropin20]

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whistleblower: Stephen halpen was being paid $2000.00 per page to write a report on Page, papadopoulus, and Flynn. And it was halpen himself that lured all 3 of them to do "work" for halpen and "interviewed them." he invited carter page, George papadopoulous, and even General Flynn to meetings...then produced false reporting of all 3.

When all 3 were interviewed by the FBI, they gave a different account of the meetings to FBI...hence charging Flynn and Papa with lying. Carter Page (former naval intelligence was smart enough to not answer FBI question directly so no charge of lying to FBI. Instead FBI obtained a fisa on Page.

Again...the US government (FBI and CIA) paid Halpen to write a report on these 3 individuals. So halpen paid (or made offers to pay) these indivduals for interviews and in the case of papadopoulus to write a report. <--based on the report from halpen, the FBI then interviewed all 3 and charged 2 of them with lying to the FBI and the other 1 they obtained a FISA 1 surveillance warrant.

Dont get me wrong. Nate and I told you guys about this 18 months ago. But breaking today....a whitsleblower is coming forward with proof of all of this.

I know. I know. No one cares. This is OK. You hate trump so "get him" by any means possible. But anyway, just thought you should know what the obama administration was up to at the highest levels.

Bruce Ohr testifies tomorrow. #4 at the FBI had dossier level knowledge. Congress is going to push him on who else knew. And the walls are entirely coming down around this entire fake russia investigation and Bruce Ohr knows it. So we'll see who he gives up tomorrow.

[closg00]

SD20, stay inside your safe, alternate reality where Trump and his inner circle were all set-up and conjecture and opinion are substitutes for facts and evidence.

[Pointgod]

Real headline in 2018. Amazing.....

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[payitforward]

Speaking of the Podesta's, I wonder when they're going to be investigated? They're consulting firm is as corrupt as Manefort-Davis.

They work for Ukrainian dictators? They're involved with Russia or any foreign country in an attempt to influence the result of our Presidential election?

Actually... what exactly have the Podestas done that strikes you as "corrupt?"

[stilldropin20]

Real headline!!

promises made, promises kept!!! Trump delivers again!!! Seriously...what kind of politician do we have here...this guy makes good on every single damn campaign promise he made!! This is unheard of honesty and transparency to the american people. does deals right in front of the press!! Trump has set a new bar for being a politician. I still cant beleive how badly the liberals hate him so much. They just dont kmnow better. their wallets get fatter. house is worth more. retirement worth more. more jobs available. entire familyis sustainable and can find work right now. and its only going to get better.

Getting mexico on board first was HUGE!! more dominoes to fall in line. Once canada caves...and they will cave. China will be forced to renegotiate...untill then? massive tarriffs for all of them!!!

Details emerging on US-Mexico trade agreement!!

Huge win on trade today!! Huge. Per mexico: They will go bi-lateral without canada if necessary!!! Huge!! Big win for north america in general.<--which allows trump and north america to now make better trade deals with china and europe. American markets and american manufacturing and sourcing will increase significantly. China will be hurt significantly by the deal.


--Automobile production Under the new agreement, 75% of the content in automobiles must be sourced in North America to quality for tariff-free treatment, up from just 62.5% under the current Nafta.

--High-wage auto production The agreement stipulates that between 40% percent and 45% of auto content must be produced by workers earning at least $16 dollars an hour. This would force companies to either maintain more production in the U.S. and Canada—where wages are higher—or pay higher wages in their Mexican factories. Either way, the requirement reduces the incentive to outsource automobile and auto part production to lower-wage factories.

--Steel and aluminum inputs Certain key inputs in automobiles, such as steel and aluminum, must be sourced in North America. The agreement could help the Trump administration reach its goal of boosting U.S. steelmakers operations to 80% of their capacity, a goal targeted by the administration’s earlier steel and aluminum tariffs.

--Rules of Origin in Other Sectors New rules will also be in place for industries like textiles, chemicals, steel-intensive products and other industrial goods to qualify for tariff-free treatment, creating an incentive for more of that production in North America.

---Intellectual property Copyright holders will have full copyright protections in markets of all members countries. The chapter on intellectual property rights will be held up as a model for agreements with countries, including China.
Digital trade Tariffs will be prohibited for digital products that are distributed electronically, such as e-books, videos, music, software and games. A chapter on digital trade was one obvious area for updating Nafta since the original agreement, written in the mid-1990s, had not accounted for the extent of today’s digital trade.


--Labor In addition to requiring higher-wage factories in the automobile supply chain, the deal would require Mexico to take specific steps to recognize collective bargaining rights, according to the U.S. Trade Representative. The details of these provisions haven’t been released yet. These provisions are a key source of concern for Democrats, who could make it difficult for a new Nafta to make it through Congress if they aren’t satisfied with the provisions. Michigan Congressman Sandy Levin, seen as a key voice on labor issues, said today that “it remains unclear whether there will be assured, substantial change in the status quo on this key issue.”

---Sunset clause The deal calls for a 16-year agreement with a provision for review after 6 years. The Trump administration’s demand for Nafta to automatically expire after 5 years with a so-called sunset clause was one of the biggest sticking points in negotiations. Canada and Mexico had argued that companies needed greater certainty about the deal remaining in place to make the sort of long-term investments that drive trade.

----Dispute settlement The original Nafta created a system of international tribunals that would consider disputes between a company and a Nafta country’s government. The Trump administration had opposed these tribunals, while U.S. industry groups as well as Mexico and Canada wanted to keep them, because reduced the risk of investing in other Nafta countries. As part of the deal, the dispute settlement panels will remain for certain industries, but not others. Oil and gas, energy and infrastructure companies will retain their ability to go to the dispute settlement panels.

----Agriculture The U.S. and Mexico agreed not to impose tariffs on each other’s agricultural goods, and not to use export subsidies. Free trade in agriculture was firmly established in the original Nafta, and today’s deal preserves most of those provisions. The deal—and an apparent shift toward more conciliatory U.S. trade policy—could be a source of special relief for farmers, who have born the brunt of retaliatory tariffs.

[payitforward]

I think it's inevitable that peasants eventually rise up against tyrants and I think in the us that will happen sooner than you think.

To put it the other way, tyrants never last. They're always overthrown.

Tyranny is based on charismatic promises. Those promises never come true. The legitimacy of governments, on the other hand, is based on established institutions & traditions (I sound like Edmund Burke!). You can have a 1000 year monarchy, but a 1000 year Reich lasts 12 years & kills 50 or 60 million people.

We have 250 years & many crises in our history. They give us ways to deal w/ a demagogue like Trump w/o rebellion.

What is certainly true is that economic changes will create both disruption and opportunity. There are going to be fewer and fewer manufacturing jobs, not more and more, even if/when manufacturing returns to this country, for example.

When I say that nothing is inevitable, what I mean is that no particular result is inevitable -- or can even be predicted (to take a weaker version of "inevitable"). For one thing, complexity & emergence cover this field. For another, we are never at the point of "result." There's always more change coming.

In 2007, no one would have predicted "President Barack Obama." In 2014, no one would have predicted "President Donald Trump."

Yet w/ Obama elected we thought something had changed forever. Then we got Trump, rising explicit racism, etc. That also doesn't represent something "changed forever"

We never arrive anywhere; we're always going somewhere -- moving away from what is & towards the unknown.

[popper]

Huh! If there's more than 1 or 2 other posters here who have heard of Antonio Gramsci it'll be a pleasant surprise. What you're referring to are the Prison Notebooks -- which Gramsci composed while imprisoned from 1929-35 (when he was was released b/c of ill health: he died 2 years later, aged 46).

Gramsci is one of the key thinkers of XXth Century Marxism &, many people would say, of XXth Century political philosophy altogether. It's been many decades since I've read anything by him, & I wasn't anything like an expert on him back when I did (the first selections from the 3000 pages of these notebooks appeared in English in the 1970s). But, there is no question that he was, as you say, "brilliant."

Probably his most famous saying -- one which I've had reason to recall many times & very usefully -- is this:

"Pessimism of the intellect; optimism of the will."

The right attitude in many situations (including that of the Wizards fan, come to think of it!).

TBH, Popper, it's hard for me to see how Gramsci or his writings have done any damage whatever to this country. There isn't enough Marxism in the US to fill a thimble (outside of the "theory of a theory of a theory" academic kind -- which has had zero impact), & even if there were, Gramsci's densely theoretical/historical essays aren't the kind of thing to return any significant practical effect. Especially compared to something like, say, Mao's Little Red Book.

Edmund Burke -- yes, an exceptional writer, thinker -- & statesman. But, you do understand what was at stake for Burke & those who reacted to him, right? Edmund Burke denied the entire idea of "the rights of man" (or as we now call them more often: "human rights"). For him, all "rights" come to a person by way of the traditions of his country.

Tom Paine's The Rights of Man, usually regarded as a fundamental work in establishing the American character & political system, was written as a riposte to Burke.

I’m a believer in aspects of both Burke and Paine’s seemingly opposing philosophies regarding the origins of the “rights”of man. Its clear the French Revolution catalyzed deep thought on the subject. I’m traveling full time until mid October but will try to explain further as time permits (if you’re interested). Gramsci’s a different animal and I disagree with you regarding his influence on our politics and govt. IMO, he invented the blue print of progressive strategy for influence and power and it’s working as intended. He’s succeeded where Marx and Lenin failed (insofar as the USA is concerned). That’s why I have so much respect for his intellect. Unfortunately for our country, it’s destined to lead to misery and perhaps even revolution.

The positions of Burke & Paine are not "seemingly opposing philosophies," Popper -- they are in utter contradiction with one another. They might both be wrong, of course, but there is nothing whatever about which they can both be right.

The idea that Gramsci's ideas might lead even "lead to... revolution" in the US baffles me. You've given some thought to this, however, so I'll be interested in what you write further on the subject -- as time permits on your travels & after you return.

When I used the phrase “seemingly opposing philosophies” I was thinking of their mutual respect and support for the tenets we associate with liberal democracy (freedom of speech, rule of law, freedom of religion and association, etc). Your counter that they are in “utter contradiction with one another” is true when considering the philosophical foundations by which they would understand and pursue the foregoing. One respecting the hereditary/institutional value of political evolution and the other defending the natural rights of man in his natural state preceding politics. Obviously I’m no expert on the subject so feel free to critique my understanding.

Regarding Gramsci, I’ll address that when I get another window of time.

[stilldropin20]

hey guys SD20 here checking in...anyway how many of you are old enough to remember that time last week when i said Lanny Davis was bluffing? Anyone...yeah i wrote it down so you can go back and check it out. anyway...yeah he was bluffing! he's got nothin!

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poor cohen. flipped on trump so he wont get a pardon but flipped on trump without anything on trump. Idiot.

you guys should really check out the look on anderson cooper's face during the interview. straight up priceless.

your fathful servant calling real balls and strikes and delivering real news to you daily,

oh fake news, never change!

humbly,

SD20

[stilldropin20]

I think it's inevitable that peasants eventually rise up against tyrants and I think in the us that will happen sooner than you think.

Tyranny is based on charismatic promises. Those promises never come true.

sooooo....liiiiiiiike.....uhhhhhh a staple in any legitmate politician is one where like ugh....promises are made and promises kept????? Cool. Trump kept yet another campaign promise today and renegotiated a much better trade deal with mexico...by better i mean better for the american people, our markets and our jobs, manufacturing and sourcing of raw material and agriculture.

In 2007, no one would have predicted "President Barack Obama." In 2014, no one would have predicted "President Donald Trump."

wrong. So wrong. could not be more wrong. Pure lunatic fringe idiocy.

the only thing standing in Obama's way of the presidency were 2 of the worst candidates in modern history and he rolodex of wealthy elites to raise money. but the internet happened. then social media happened and obama had billionaire penny pritzker behind him and they were first to use social media to raise small amounts of money. And Obama didn't know what he didn't know and happy to be there and played the part perfectly. HRC and Mccain were the washington generals...both showed up just to lose. neither knew how to win nor how to play to win. Pritzker did. and Obama played his part as the perfect polished spokesperson that can tell or not tell any unknowing lie he needed to say to order motivate the liberal base that is prone to emotional vitriol disguised as elegance.

me? I knew what i was buying when i bought Obama. I just thought he would do more for chicago.

as for him being the first african-american president? Was that what you meant!!?? Shame on you!! That too was very predictable!!!! I mean extremely predictable. We will soon have a first female president too. also very predictable. as well as first black female. First Asian-amerioca. Asian female. We will someday have a homosexual president. and perhaps even a transexual, gender neutral etc. all are extremely predictable. It will all happen eventually and is very predictable. There was nothing surprising about Obama winning unless you were/are a racists or grew up around a bunch of racists. Only those people were surprised.

Yet w/ Obama elected we thought something had changed forever. Then we got Trump, rising explicit racism, etc. That also doesn't represent something "changed forever"

We never arrive anywhere; we're always going somewhere -- moving away from what is & towards the unknown.[

more foolish racism and race baiting bullcrap from you?? methinks you got issues with race. go get some help.

[TGW]

Speaking of the Podesta's, I wonder when they're going to be investigated? They're consulting firm is as corrupt as Manefort-Davis.

They work for Ukrainian dictators? They're involved with Russia or any foreign country in an attempt to influence the result of our Presidential election?

Actually... what exactly have the Podestas done that strikes you as "corrupt?"

Quick answer? Yes and yes. As a matter of fact, they were a part of mueller’s Investigation and have ties to Ukrainian and Russian oligarchs. For probably political reasons, Mueller has not gone after them.

http://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/357962-Manafort-Podesta-Group-highlight-DC-swamp-culture

[stilldropin20]

Speaking of the Podesta's, I wonder when they're going to be investigated? They're consulting firm is as corrupt as Manefort-Davis.

They work for Ukrainian dictators? They're involved with Russia or any foreign country in an attempt to influence the result of our Presidential election?

Actually... what exactly have the Podestas done that strikes you as "corrupt?"

Quick answer? Yes and yes. As a matter of fact, they were a part of mueller’s Investigation and have ties to Ukrainian and Russian oligarchs. For probably political reasons, Mueller has not gone after them.

http://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/357962-Manafort-Podesta-Group-highlight-DC-swamp-culture

That article is over a year old and Nate and I have been reporting on this for over 18 months. You guys just now waking up to the truth?

The entire russian collusion thing was made up. and made up in such a way that the podestas, the DNC, HRC and their attorneys, perkins coie, hired fusion (who directly colluded with russians).

I mentioned (and coined?) the term "legal firewall" here in this space over 18 months ago where all the players involved can deny away and there is some level of plausible deniability...but at some point the real investigation will being. at some point individuals will be named in criminal activity and they will begin to speak.

Trump may be many things...but the biggest mistake he made was hiring sessions and then not firing sessions immediately when he recused himself out of the job. I cant wait until Sessions is fired. If i'm trump, i fire session tomorrow and name jim jordan USAG and hold the gorsuch approval over the senate's (GOP) head in confirming Jordan. The president deserves full control of his DOJ. As it stands, he's got mueller running around carte blanche looking for crimes. all because he fired comey. who was illegally heading an illegal investigation into trump and illegally prosecuting Flynn after they had already illegally surveilled the trump campaign.

I mean i still cant believe how many times ive types this out in this thread and none of you care. President Barrack Obama's banana effin republic!!

[dckingsfan]

She rightly merrits (IMO) a viceral reaction from both the Right and Center. Part of what brought us Trump was the Ds bringing us Hillary - the two actions can't be divorced from each other.

One reason I'm hopeful that Trump won't be reelected. He presumably won't be running against HRC.

I wouldn't be surprised if she runs again TBH. I can imagine her justifying the action by saying that the election was stolen from her. That being said, I hope someone else from the Ds takes the lead.

Yep, the Ds would only have themselves to blame if HRC runs again much less wins the primary. That said, Bernie would be just a big a disaster.

[montestewart]

I told you guys about this 18 months ago.

yeah i wrote it down so you can go back and check it out.

I have been reporting on this for over 18 months.

I mentioned (and coined?) the term "legal firewall" here in this space over 18 months ago

i still cant believe how many times ive types this out in this thread and none of you care.

And then I realized, Hands never really left us

[stilldropin20]

I think it's inevitable that peasants eventually rise up against tyrants and I think in the us that will happen sooner than you think.

i dont think a guy like you will ever actually figure out who the real tyrants are because in these pages you advocate strongly for past and present tyrants.

By adding the alex jones link below -which is fun and somewhat interesting for anyone who clikcs on...I'm not advocating for Alex Jones. And I'm not saying i follow nor believe everything alex jones says... but for the peasants to ever "rise up" we are going to need to listen to and fight for people like alex jones freedom of speech. In successfully shutting him up, the tyrants win. They win now. And they win in the future.

I'd add that for the peasants to be successful in this "rising up" you advocate, the peasant better be damn sure they are right. To be right they must be educated. To get educated they must talk. About. Everything.

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[stilldropin20]

what an idiot. jobs are back! revenue revenue is growing (with tax cuts)! UE at historic lows! Manufacturing is coming back!

and now nafta is renegotiated and is better for america (including mexico)!! Either Obama was an idiot or a globalist traitor that was desperate to make china great again! What kind of president gives up on the american people and how many lies did obama say in the clip below? 20? 25? The entire thing is a lie. Where's snopes to fact check him!

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[Jamaaliver]

what an idiot. jobs are back! revenue revenue is growing (with tax cuts)! UE at historic lows! Manufacturing is coming back!

Someone should tell these guys the economy was fixed...

Almost half of Americans can't pay for their basic needs


Four in 10 Americans are struggling to pay for their basic needs such as groceries or housing, a problem even middle-class households confront, according to a new study from the Urban Institute.

Despite the U.S. economy being near full employment, 39.4 percent of adults between 18 and 64 years old said they experienced at least one type of material hardship in 2017, according to the study, which surveyed more than 7,500 adults about whether they had trouble paying for housing, utilities, food or health care.


Against the backdrop of President Donald Trump's boasting about low unemployment and strong economic growth, the research adds nuance to the problems facing American families. Middle-class households tend to struggle with paying their health care bills rather than utilities, for instance. Health care costs have outpaced wages and inflation, pushing more Americans into high-deductible plans, which can backfire when serious health problems arise.


Low-income households reported the highest share of hardship. For instance, more than 40 percent of poor and near-poor adults, or those below and slightly above the federal poverty level, experienced food insecurity, compared with about 23 percent across all income groups.

Holding a job also doesn't provide immunity to hardship, the study found. One of three families with at least one working adult said they had trouble meeting at least one basic need, such as paying for food or utilities.

Minorities report higher rates of hardship than whites, while women are almost 7 percentage points more likely to struggle to meet their basic needs than men. White households tend to earn more money than minority families, while men out-earn women due to the gender wage gap and occupational segregation, meaning men hold a larger share of higher-paying jobs.

"I hope that people will see," said Karpman, "that even though we're in a relatively healthy economy, a lot of families are still having difficulty meeting their basic needs for food, housing and healthcare."

CBS News

[verbal8]

Speaking of the Podesta's, I wonder when they're going to be investigated? They're consulting firm is as corrupt as Manefort-Davis.

They work for Ukrainian dictators? They're involved with Russia or any foreign country in an attempt to influence the result of our Presidential election?

Actually... what exactly have the Podestas done that strikes you as "corrupt?"

Quick answer? Yes and yes. As a matter of fact, they were a part of mueller’s Investigation and have ties to Ukrainian and Russian oligarchs. For probably political reasons, Mueller has not gone after them.

http://thehill.com/opinion/campaign/357962-Manafort-Podesta-Group-highlight-DC-swamp-culture

I think there will be a few Democrats caught up in this. I think it would be the investigation vs. political leanings that would delay the prosecution. While a lot of focus has been on co-conspirators as providing information to the investigation - victims also can provide important information/testimony. If wrong-doing by the victims is revealed, it should be prosecuted - but it may be delayed/reduced for the purposes of the investigation.

[payitforward]

I’m a believer in aspects of both Burke and Paine’s seemingly opposing philosophies...

The positions of Burke & Paine are not "seemingly opposing philosophies," Popper -- they are in utter contradiction with one another. ...

When I used the phrase “seemingly opposing philosophies” I was thinking of their mutual respect and support for the tenets we associate with liberal democracy (freedom of speech, rule of law, freedom of religion and association, etc). Your counter that they are in “utter contradiction with one another” is true when considering the philosophical foundations by which they would understand and pursue the foregoing. ....

We don't have to go into this much further, but I do think this is basically inaccurate. They did disagree at the level of "philosophical foundations," but they disagreed even more on questions of what government was & what it ought to do.

Of course, one can draw the picture at a broad enough level that they (or pretty much any two) political philosophers can be found to agree, but in this case the relationship was between contemporaries & was specific (they each had the other in mind), extremely pointed & critical in both directions, & fairly extended.

Paine wrote The Rights of Man with the express idea in mind of disproving Burke & discrediting his ideas (i.e. his book Reflections on the Revolution in France). Burke then wrote a sequel to Reflections in which he quoted Paine's treatise at length to prove it both wrong and foolish -- in fact, he uses Paine as the model of what he opposes. Whereupon Paine wrote The Rights of Man, Part Two -- hitting back at Burke. & that's where it ended.

There is plenty of value to be found in the works of both Burke & Paine. They are inspirational (if to different sets of people!), & they are fascinating. Their greatest value, as one could also say of Voltaire or Spinoza or Machiavelli or Aquinas or Thucydides or... straight back to the earliest works we have from when writing was a new technology, is to offer example of smart people thinking hard about things that matter. That's always valuable & always a good model to keep front of mind.

But, however much one can learn from either Burke or Paine, they neither lived in nor wrote about a society anything like ours. There is no direct way to extend either of their sets of ideas into our time. The moment that's done they are turned into quasi-religious figures instead of thinkers, statues in the park as it were, with their maxims quoted reverently & opposition to any of them viewed as a kind of heresy.

[FAH1223]

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