Political Roundtable Part XXVI

[dobrojim]

When we retrun to more normal times, I will probably begin to disagree much more frequently
with Micheal Gerson. In the meantime, I gotta give him his props.

When dealing with a political figure who faces allegations of sexual assault, financial misdeeds and obstruction of justice, it is difficult to sort out the greatest damage to our public life. But a strong case can be made that it is the assault on truth.

Trump is not only speaking a series of lies. He is inviting millions of loyalists to live in a political reality conjured by his deceptions. Any news critical of him is “fake.” Any agitprop that supports him — even by the purveyors of conspiracy theories — is to be believed. And any election he might lose is fraudulent.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/trump-isnt-just-speaking-lies-hes-inviting-loyalists-to-live-in-his-own-political-reality/2019/06/24/2be2bcc0-96c0-11e9-8d0a-5edd7e2025b1_story.html?utm_term=.1fe40037eb0a

[Zonkerbl]

So let me see if I have this right. We are going to run 2020 on the issue that Trump is actually Hitler light. And anyone that votes for Trump or anyone that doesn't vote for the D candidate is secretly a supporter of concentration camps. Kind of like a mean version of Hillary's deplorables. Brilliant.

The level of extreme projection will be enough to get Trump reelected. But maybe that is what is going on - maybe secretly Ds really want Trump reelected so that they can prove how bad Rs really are. All of that stuff about the environment, healthcare and higher ed is just a deflection on what the really want?

It's really disingenuous of you to suddenly pretend we were talking about Trump's reelection campaign this whole time. We weren't. We were talking about admitting out loud to ourselves that the GOP is fully endorsing and defending the operation of concentration camps on US soil. And how extraordinary it is that anyone could possibly support the GOP after that. This isn't about election strategy. It's about *basic human decency.*

The elections are the Dems problem, and they apparently have decided having old racist handsy grampa Biden is better than having old racist handsy grampa Trump. Whatever.

[gtn130]

They're concentration camps.

If they weren't technically concentration camps, why is it more important to talk about proper descriptors for child abuse than the child abuse itself?

[dckingsfan]

So let me see if I have this right. We are going to run 2020 on the issue that Trump is actually Hitler light. And anyone that votes for Trump or anyone that doesn't vote for the D candidate is secretly a supporter of concentration camps. Kind of like a mean version of Hillary's deplorables. Brilliant.

The level of extreme projection will be enough to get Trump reelected. But maybe that is what is going on - maybe secretly Ds really want Trump reelected so that they can prove how bad Rs really are. All of that stuff about the environment, healthcare and higher ed is just a deflection on what the really want?

It's really disingenuous of you to suddenly pretend we were talking about Trump's reelection campaign this whole time. We weren't. We were talking about admitting out loud to ourselves that the GOP is fully endorsing and defending the operation of concentration camps on US soil. And how extraordinary it is that anyone could possibly support the GOP after that. This isn't about election strategy. It's about *basic human decency.*

The elections are the Dems problem, and they apparently have decided having old racist handsy grampa Biden is better than having old racist handsy grampa Trump. Whatever.

Of course it isn't disingenuous. How are you going to end the practice? Or don't you want a solution?

[dckingsfan]

They're concentration camps.

If they weren't technically concentration camps, why is it more important to talk about proper descriptors for child abuse than the child abuse itself?

So - same thing as the camps in Germany

[pancakes3]

Is bickering over the definition of what is and is not a concentration camp a meaningful component of the solution?

[Wizardspride]

Read on Twitter

?s=19

Read on Twitter

?s=19

[Pointgod]

They're concentration camps.

If they weren't technically concentration camps, why is it more important to talk about proper descriptors for child abuse than the child abuse itself?

So - same thing as the camps in Germany

You know what happened in Germany isn’t literally the only example of concentration camps in history. There are concentration camps that exist in the world right now. I don’t know why you’ve spent the past 2 pages arguing for a specific definition.

Let’s focus on what’s important and the important question is are you okay with children dying, living in squalor and suffering lifelong psychological trauma as a matter of policy and not simply incompetence as you incorrectly put it. It’s really a simple question if you’re willing to ignore treating humans inhumanely. And I don’t want to hear whataboutism regarding Democrats or Obama. This is a Trump policy and defacto Republican position that they’re okay with children dying or locked in cages.

[dckingsfan]

They're concentration camps.

If they weren't technically concentration camps, why is it more important to talk about proper descriptors for child abuse than the child abuse itself?

So - same thing as the camps in Germany

You know what happened in Germany isn’t literally the only example of concentration camps in history. There are concentration camps that exist in the world right now. I don’t know why you’ve spent the past 2 pages arguing for a specific definition.

Let’s focus on what’s important and the important question is are you okay with children dying, living in squalor and suffering lifelong psychological trauma as a matter of policy and not simply incompetence as you incorrectly put it. It’s really a simple question if you’re willing to ignore treating humans inhumanely. And I don’t want to hear whataboutism regarding Democrats or Obama. This is a Trump policy and defacto Republican position that they’re okay with children dying or locked in cages.

I disagree - concentration camps are by definition what happened in Germany. And that's why all this nonsense of labeling them concentration camps gets us moving in the wrong direction. I think this type of labeling is just incredible stupidity to get us to focus on the wrong things.

And yes, let's ignore the history of the problem. The Trafficking Victims Protection Act of 2000 (reupped in 2005 and 2008) didn't really exist (and isn't being used). The Ds haven't used this to their political advantage at all. Sorry - to old for that - watched any discussion of any kind of reasonable immigration policy be leveraged... hence why we have the mess we have. This mess has been created by BOTH parties. Guessing that doesn't fit the narrative. Specifically, the Ds have sat on their hands on this because it is the policy they like. Families come into the US and can then stay. This is how we got to the dreamer problem - they don't want to offer a solution.

And yes, let's link this from Trump's inability to govern and his inherent stupidity to Rs to your next inevitable jump to all Rs and then to anyone that doesn't vote D. And then of course - they are all complicit and are therefore all children torturers. Sorry - its a broken record for me.

And focusing on this doesn't fix the root cause. And how many have died on the trek to the US? How many died at the boarders? You might find that problem to be much worse than the one we are now focused on...

[dckingsfan]

Is bickering over the definition of what is and is not a concentration camp a meaningful component of the solution?

Interesting - now I see where this all came from: AOC. What a dimwit. One of the incredibly stupid authors of the GND.

Figures. Much ado about nothing.... moving on.

[pancakes3]

Is bickering over the definition of what is and is not a concentration camp a meaningful component of the solution?

Interesting - now I see where this all came from: AOC. What a dimwit. One of the incredibly stupid authors of the GND.

Figures. Much ado about nothing.... moving on.

it came from the journalist/attorney/doctors who were visiting the holding facilities. concentration camp is their words, not AOC's.

i retweeted their original post about the conditions a few pages ago and the thread tagged every senator and prominent congressperson to shine light on the issue. AOC is merely the one that picked the ball up and ran with it.

AOC's intellect aside, the media scrutiny led to a resignation, and the move of those children to more adequate accommodations so in a sense its mission accomplished. regardless of how you feel about the term of art or AOC, the issue did have merit and the movement did enact change

[dobrojim]

They're concentration camps.

If they weren't technically concentration camps, why is it more important to talk about proper descriptors for child abuse than the child abuse itself?

So - same thing as the camps in Germany

You know what happened in Germany isn’t literally the only example of concentration camps in history. There are concentration camps that exist in the world right now. I don’t know why you’ve spent the past 2 pages arguing for a specific definition.

Let’s focus on what’s important and the important question is are you okay with children dying, living in squalor and suffering lifelong psychological trauma as a matter of policy and not simply incompetence as you incorrectly put it. It’s really a simple question if you’re willing to ignore treating humans inhumanely. And I don’t want to hear whataboutism regarding Democrats or Obama. This is a Trump policy and defacto Republican position that they’re okay with children dying or locked in cages.

Particularly when that definition actually wasn't specific in that it had wiggle room to include
camps which were not death camps.

[dckingsfan]

Is bickering over the definition of what is and is not a concentration camp a meaningful component of the solution?

Interesting - now I see where this all came from: AOC. What a dimwit. One of the incredibly stupid authors of the GND.

Figures. Much ado about nothing.... moving on.

it came from the journalist/attorney/doctors who were visiting the holding facilities. concentration camp is their words, not AOC's.

i retweeted their original post about the conditions a few pages ago and the thread tagged every senator and prominent congressperson to shine light on the issue. AOC is merely the one that picked the ball up and ran with it.

AOC's intellect aside, the media scrutiny led to a resignation, and the move of those children to more adequate accommodations so in a sense its mission accomplished. regardless of how you feel about the term of art or AOC, the issue did have merit and the movement did enact change

Then I most humbly stand corrected.

[dckingsfan]

So - same thing as the camps in Germany

You know what happened in Germany isn’t literally the only example of concentration camps in history. There are concentration camps that exist in the world right now. I don’t know why you’ve spent the past 2 pages arguing for a specific definition.

Let’s focus on what’s important and the important question is are you okay with children dying, living in squalor and suffering lifelong psychological trauma as a matter of policy and not simply incompetence as you incorrectly put it. It’s really a simple question if you’re willing to ignore treating humans inhumanely. And I don’t want to hear whataboutism regarding Democrats or Obama. This is a Trump policy and defacto Republican position that they’re okay with children dying or locked in cages.

Particularly when that definition actually wasn't specific in that it had wiggle room to include
camps which were not death camps.

If you have any links to family that were actually in concentration camps - it would piss you off.

[I_Like_Dirt]

I disagree - concentration camps are by definition what happened in Germany. And that's why all this nonsense of labeling them concentration camps gets us moving in the wrong direction. I think this type of labeling is just incredible stupidity to get us to focus on the wrong things.

No, they really aren't that, though. They're just a tool used a certain way by the Nazis. There are swastikas in India that aren't actually Nazi symbols. The Nazis also used guns but that doesn't mean that guns are inherently Nazi or that all guns are the exact same as the ones the Nazis used. Before WWII, concentration camps were largely used to describe detention of civilians without trial. You have cited the definition yourself multiple times and it absolutely describes the situation here. And this isn't even the first time America has used concentration camps. It's just the first major example to hit the news post-WWII. Here's an example of a pre-WWII event where they were used by America that very few people are aware of.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippine%E2%80%93American_War

This type of labeling whether misleading or not is absolutely accurate. What's stupid is trying to deny it despite the fact that it's obvious and bogging the discussion down on the issue because you don't see value in calling something what it is. And no, these camps aren't the same as the Phillipine-American war, either. They still fit the definition. Where this gets trickier is the whole racism factor in the equation because we all know that's driving Trump's actions and popularity. Nobody wants to get into the discussion about their racism or anything like that let alone how it's enabling a concentration camp. They're loaded terms. But if you allow such things to go by without even identifying them, you've set a precedent that you believe such things are okay regardless of whether you believe it or not because you're willing to overlook it to focus on other things hoping that it will resolve the problem in other ways. There are cases where you simply need to take action, though. You don't tell a battered wife that her husband isn't doing spousal abuse because you're worried that he will take offense and won't respond to rehabilitation actions. If you get to that point, true rehabilitation likely isn't in the cards but even if it is it won't be impacted by something so trivial.

[TGW]

Concentration camp, internement camp, cages for families who broke no law.

Who TF cares about the label. Jeezus H Crist--talk about missing the point. The true dimwits are the people who are arguing over the language. STFU.

[Zonkerbl]

They're concentration camps.

If they weren't technically concentration camps, why is it more important to talk about proper descriptors for child abuse than the child abuse itself?

So - same thing as the camps in Germany

Yes, exactly. Thank you for finally understanding the point. Which we've explained to you several times so far and I was beginning to wonder about your reading comprehension.

What is going on right now, deliberately tearing children away from their parents and holding them in concentration camps, is wrong and must end IMMEDIATELY. That's the solution. Let those children go home to their family in the US. Costs the US taxpayer nothing and also, bonus! is not a gross human rights violation/war crime.

[Zonkerbl]

You know what happened in Germany isn’t literally the only example of concentration camps in history. There are concentration camps that exist in the world right now. I don’t know why you’ve spent the past 2 pages arguing for a specific definition.

Let’s focus on what’s important and the important question is are you okay with children dying, living in squalor and suffering lifelong psychological trauma as a matter of policy and not simply incompetence as you incorrectly put it. It’s really a simple question if you’re willing to ignore treating humans inhumanely. And I don’t want to hear whataboutism regarding Democrats or Obama. This is a Trump policy and defacto Republican position that they’re okay with children dying or locked in cages.

Particularly when that definition actually wasn't specific in that it had wiggle room to include
camps which were not death camps.

If you have any links to family that were actually in concentration camps - it would piss you off.

YES! I'm FURIOUS that we have concentration camps in the US!!!! Are you not????? I would further point out that to DENY that these are concentration camps is to minimize the lessons of the Shoah and a dereliction of our duty to ensure that it never happens again.

[Zonkerbl]

I disagree - concentration camps are by definition what happened in Germany. And that's why all this nonsense of labeling them concentration camps gets us moving in the wrong direction. I think this type of labeling is just incredible stupidity to get us to focus on the wrong things.

:facepalm:

https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/concentration-camps-existed-long-before-Auschwitz-180967049/

"The same year, the British Empire extended internment to its colonies and possessions. The Germans responded with mass arrests of aliens from not only Britain but Australia, Canada, and South Africa as well. Concentration camps soon flourished around the globe: in France, Russia, Turkey, Austro-Hungary, Brazil, Japan, China, India, Haiti, Cuba, Singapore, Siam, New Zealand, and many other locations. Over time, concentration camps would become a tool in the arsenal of nearly every country.

...

By the end of [WWI], more than 800,000 civilians had been held in concentration camps, with hundreds of thousands more forced into exile in remote regions. Mental illness and shattered minority communities were just two of the tolls this long-term internment exacted from detainees.

Nevertheless, this more “civilized” approach toward enemy aliens during the First World War managed to rehabilitate the sullied image of concentration camps. People accepted the notion that a targeted group might turn itself in and be detained during a crisis, with a reasonable expectation to one day be released without permanent harm. Later in the century, this expectation would have tragic consequences."

[dckingsfan]

Particularly when that definition actually wasn't specific in that it had wiggle room to include
camps which were not death camps.

If you have any links to family that were actually in concentration camps - it would piss you off.

YES! I'm FURIOUS that we have concentration camps in the US!!!! Are you not????? I would further point out that to DENY that these are concentration camps is to minimize the lessons of the Shoah and a dereliction of our duty to ensure that it never happens again.

And this is where we part ways on this issue. My definition of concentration camps is quite specific and you are broadening them.

Clearly our prisons are then concentration camps as well. Actually, more so in that there are conditions where inmates are actually on death row.

I object to the language and the false parallels. This is exactly how our immigration policies have moved to insoluble. Using this kind of language decreases the chance of a resolution. But I get it - righteous indignation... have at it. Just count me out.