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Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX

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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#261 » by doclinkin » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:28 pm

payitforward wrote:Here's the thing -- Davis played the 4 all three years he was with San Antonio. & this year with us. You want to put him at the 3? Sure, why not? Let's see how he does.

But, so far, he's a 4 & will be assessed as a 4.


Not according to John Hollinger, ESPN, and other position rankings I find. They have him as a SF, even in San Antonio.

Check box scores from San Antonio:

https://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=401070717

See the SF next to his name.

And not according to his play style. So. You're wrong. Nyeah.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#262 » by nate33 » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:43 pm

If he plays alongside Bonga, who is the 4? Particularly now that Bonga has filled out a bit.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#263 » by dckingsfan » Wed Oct 21, 2020 10:54 pm

nate33 wrote:If he plays alongside Bonga, who is the 4? Particularly now that Bonga has filled out a bit.

Do you mean since the bubble? If so, link. It seems like he could put a lot on that frame of his... I have always been puzzled why he didn't rebound better.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#264 » by payitforward » Thu Oct 22, 2020 1:41 am

doclinkin wrote:
payitforward wrote:Here's the thing -- Davis played the 4 all three years he was with San Antonio. & this year with us. You want to put him at the 3? Sure, why not? Let's see how he does.

But, so far, he's a 4 & will be assessed as a 4.


Not according to John Hollinger, ESPN, and other position rankings I find. They have him as a SF, even in San Antonio.

Check box scores from San Antonio:

https://www.espn.com/nba/boxscore?gameId=401070717

See the SF next to his name.

And not according to his play style. So. You're wrong. Nyeah.

Take a little closer look at that box score! It's weird!

Lists 13 minutes total played at Center.
Lists 81 minutes at SF
Lists two starting SFs.
Lists 60 minutes at PF
Lists 2 guys just as "F" -- never seen that before! -- for 19 minutes

That's 160 minutes played at one or another Forward!

I just don't think I'm gonna take this box score as representative of anything at all! Reality must be that when Poeltl goes out, Aldridge moves to Center. Then Gasol play some C minutes too.

Check minutes played on the season, & it'll be clearer. OTOH, I don't disagree w/ the idea of trying him at the 3, so what difference does this make, really....

Funny tho!
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#265 » by nate33 » Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:22 pm

Adapted from a proposed trade on the Trade Board:

Washington trades: Ish Smith + Admiral Schofield + #37
Dallas trades: Delon Wright + #31

Why for Washington: Wright is a better fit than Ish on a team with a healthy Wall and Beal because he can man both guard positions and play some D. The Wizards move up a few slots in the 2nd round as compensation for taking some 2021 salary off of Dallas' books. Also, it frees up a roster spot which can come in handy.

Why for Dallas: They save 2021 money for Giannis.

If the Wizards land Okongwu at #9, I like the way the team looks going forward. Suddenly, they have some pretty good defenders in the lineup:

PG Wall/Wright
SG Beal/Brown
SF Bonga/Bertans
PF Hachimura/Bertans
C Bryant/Okongwu
End of Bench: #31 pick, Robinson, Mathews, Wagner

At #31, some of the Wiz Board favorites figure to be available: Tillman, Flynn, Bey or Reed.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#266 » by Frichuela » Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:09 pm

nate33 wrote:Adapted from a proposed trade on the Trade Board:

Washington trades: Ish Smith + Admiral Schofield + #37
Dallas trades: Delon Wright + #31

Why for Washington: Wright is a better fit than Ish on a team with a healthy Wall and Beal because he can man both guard positions and play some D. The Wizards move up a few slots in the 2nd round as compensation for taking some 2021 salary off of Dallas' books. Also, it frees up a roster spot which can come in handy.

Why for Dallas: They save 2021 money for Giannis.

If the Wizards land Okongwu at #9, I like the way the team looks going forward. Suddenly, they have some pretty good defenders in the lineup:

PG Wall/Wright
SG Beal/Brown
SF Bonga/Bertans
PF Hachimura/Bertans
C Bryant/Okongwu
End of Bench: #31 pick, Robinson, Mathews, Wagner

At #31, some of the Wiz Board favorites figure to be available: Tillman, Flynn, Bey or Reed.


Great trade! Delon Wright’s defensive metrics are pretty good. He is a big guard: almost 6’5” without shoes with 6’7-8” wingspan. Offensively he is also decent. And we get to pick at #31!
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#267 » by payitforward » Sun Oct 25, 2020 8:51 pm

That would be a great trade for us -- amazingly so. It would be great without the pick swap to tell the truth!
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#268 » by doclinkin » Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:01 pm

Probably unlikely and not really a trade but: Andre Drummond and the Cavs are far apart on an extension. They are well below what he is asking in recognition of the reduced market for traditional bigs.

Now he could opt in for an ungodly amount of $ on a 1 year deal with his player extension. But he has made an ungodly amount of $ already, and was seriously pi55ed at Detroit's lack of loyalty in shipping him. Here at the Wizards, the team shows loyalty well beyond the baseline, especially to Wall who is well respected around the league. And receives it in turn with players like Beal stating they'd rather retire here than move on. Over the past few summers Drummond and Wall have hung out in Miami.

All things being equal, if the Cavs offer him a low contract and no one else is offering much, maybe he would he take a reasonable deal to come to DC and play for a potential contender, on an extended contract.

DC needs rebounding and rim protection. Okay and also mobile bigs, but still. He regularly puts up 20/20 games and has been remarkably durable for a true big. And personally I think he has a little more game than he was asked to display in Detroit. The question is: If he were available on the open market, at what price would we want Andre Drummond, if at all?


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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#269 » by payitforward » Sun Oct 25, 2020 9:42 pm

Are you asking about this year? I.e. if he turns down a $29m player option?

Sometimes we lose our real world sense of what these $$ numbers mean. Twenty nine million dollars...? Would you or I recommend that he turn that down? I don't think I could... not in conscience.

"...a potential condender..." -- ? What will we be contending for in '21-22?
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#270 » by doclinkin » Sun Oct 25, 2020 10:12 pm

That's the 'probably unlikely' part. And money is money. But. Would I personally turn down a portion of 29 million dollars not to have to live in Cleveland? I mean, maybe. :clown:

Obviously Drummond would not be turning down $29m to get zero dollars. Come on: we just finished paying Ian Mahinmi $64 million. But let's say Davis Bertans turns down 15 million or so to sign elsewhere. And the Wiz strike out on Big Man talent in the draft. Okongwu gets taken early, we pass on Achiuwa with a trade down possibility, but he gets taken before the later pick.

Drummond could re-up in Cleveland to play a losing year, knowing that if he plays in a losing situation he ends up demotivated and his future contract possibility declines. He is always the sort of player who asks more of himself when surrounded by a good attitude. (I've followed him since UConn since i have people in Connecticut). His agent sniffs the market and nobody is offering much in terms of long term deals, but the Wizards offer 2-3 million per year more than elsewhere. Or longer term.

I'm just sketching on a napkin here, and wondering what really is a 20/20 durable big man worth?
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#271 » by payitforward » Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:43 pm

I've always liked Drummond. But, honestly, these numbers are way too big to turn your back on!
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#272 » by doclinkin » Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:21 am

payitforward wrote:"...a potential condender..." -- ? What will we be contending for in '21-22?


We will be contending for retaining Beal and building around a Wall/Beal backcourt. Adding Drummond instantly gives us a mismatch in the front court against all but the most elite teams. A traditional core of stars, with complimentary glue guy players around them, and sudden depth at key positions.

Here's a question. What would the Wizards record have been last year if:

--We substituted Wall for IT. Even say at 80% of Wall's best production.
--Added a Drummond level scorer/rebounder/rim protector.

We lose the worst high usage player in the NBA. Add a former Allstar and team leader. Deepening our bench rotation in the back court of course, but also reducing fouls in our front court from interior penetration. Best estimate I'm thinking about +7 games from that switch alone.

In the front court: no Wagner, Mahinmi, Pascesniks. And we add a player who has missed maybe 6 games in his entire career, so adding bench depth even in man games lost to injury. Yes we would lose starting production from Bryant, but at his best he still was never putting up eight 20/20 games in a row as Drummond has. And he would be free to play hard on defense since there are no worries on him fouling out. We go from dead last in rebounding to top 3rd just by this addition. Worth another half dozen games there.

I think small ball will see a swing towards Bigs again. Giannis and Embiid and Bam in the East. Bron with AD; Jokic and Bigs. Houston has flamed out without size, and is moving on from Moreyball. Montrezl proved too small to play in the playoffs. The Bucks play two seven footers and feast on the East. Basketball is still a Big man's game.
Check out the head to head match-ups of Giannis vs Drummond. Making the Freak look ordinary.

As for fit otherwise, Drummond has actually played the point center role that I've been banging on about. Without the outside shooting to really give him space. Here, even simply with Beal (if not Bertans) he would have a weapon he has never had before. Better space. An uptick in talent, without duplication of roles and positions. I can see the team playing winning ball with that trio. Who is to say they wouldn't contend? Who has a better Big 3 in the East?

Consider that Ted has paid the lux tax for a losing team, out of necessity but also out of loyalty to the players we drafted, re-upping John early, extending Beal, to see what we can get from the guys we drafted. If it were even possible and could guarantee a deep playoff run for exceeding the tax, I expect he would do it.

Yes. We are constrained in what we can offer, and don't have the assets to trade if he (reasonably) renews. Cleveland will probably wait til the trade deadline to see what playoff teams will offer on an expiring contract. But damn. The idea that he is even on the market is one that starts my inner clockworks ticking and buzzing. He's a better passer than he is credited for, more skilled than the role he was always asked to play. If it were a matter of money, well, it's not my money, but I'd love to see what that trio was able to do against the best of the best. It would be a throwback to a traditional team with a traditional Point, Center, and Shooting guard, but really good versions of each of the above. Complementary in their skills and roles.

Probably an opium dream. But rather than play the man from Poorlock, help me build the court of Kubla Kahn a minute. If it were possible, how would it be possible.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#273 » by WizarDynasty » Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:46 am

doclinkin wrote:
payitforward wrote:"...a potential condender..." -- ? What will we be contending for in '21-22?


We will be contending for retaining Beal and building around a Wall/Beal backcourt. Adding Drummond instantly gives us a mismatch in the front court against all but the most elite teams. A traditional core of stars, with complimentary glue guy players around them, and sudden depth at key positions.

Here's a question. What would the Wizards record have been last year if:

--We substituted Wall for IT. Even say at 80% of Wall's best production.
--Added a Drummond level scorer/rebounder/rim protector.

We lose the worst high usage player in the NBA. Add a former Allstar and team leader. Deepening our bench rotation in the back court of course, but also reducing fouls in our front court from interior penetration. Best estimate I'm thinking about +7 games from that switch alone.

In the front court: no Wagner, Mahinmi, Pascesniks. And we add a player who has missed maybe 6 games in his entire career, so adding bench depth even in man games lost to injury. Yes we would lose starting production from Bryant, but at his best he still was never putting up eight 20/20 games in a row as Drummond has. And he would be free to play hard on defense since there are no worries on him fouling out. We go from dead last in rebounding to top 3rd just by this addition. Worth another half dozen games there.

I think small ball will see a swing towards Bigs again. Giannis and Embiid and Bam in the East. Bron with AD; Jokic and Bigs. Houston has flamed out without size, and is moving on from Moreyball. Montrezl proved too small to play in the playoffs. The Bucks play two seven footers and feast on the East. Basketball is still a Big man's game.
Check out the head to head match-ups of Giannis vs Drummond. Making the Freak look ordinary.

As for fit otherwise, Drummond has actually played the point center role that I've been banging on about. Without the outside shooting to really give him space. Here, even simply with Beal (if not Bertans) he would have a weapon he has never had before. Better space. An uptick in talent, without duplication of roles and positions. I can see the team playing winning ball with that trio. Who is to say they wouldn't contend? Who has a better Big 3 in the East?

Consider that Ted has paid the lux tax for a losing team, out of necessity but also out of loyalty to the players we drafted, re-upping John early, extending Beal, to see what we can get from the guys we drafted. If it were even possible and could guarantee a deep playoff run for exceeding the tax, I expect he would do it.

Yes. We are constrained in what we can offer, and don't have the assets to trade if he (reasonably) renews. Clevel;and will probably wait til the trade deadline to see what playoff teams will offer on an expiring contract. But damn. The idea that he is even on the market is one that starts my inner clockworks ticking and buzzing. He's a better passer than he is credited for, more skilled than the role he was always asked to play. If it were a matter of money, well, it's not my money, but I'd love to see what that trio was able to do against the best of the best. It would be a throwback to a traditional team with a traditional Point, Center, and Shooting guard, but really good versions of each of the above. Complementary in their skills and roles.

Probably an opium dream. But rather than play the man from Poorlock, help me build the court of Kubla Kahn a minute. If it were possible, how would it be possible.


Drummond has never played with guys like wall and beal. I think he would thrive. Now he isn't a full court sprint kind of center so let's not get to high but he gives a physical dimension in the paint that we haven't had since...jahidi white maybe. Just someone who can hold driving lanes and outmuscle and out leverage. Would love to see him here.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#274 » by Dark Faze » Mon Oct 26, 2020 1:46 pm

payitforward wrote:Are you asking about this year? I.e. if he turns down a $29m player option?

Sometimes we lose our real world sense of what these $$ numbers mean. Twenty nine million dollars...? Would you or I recommend that he turn that down? I don't think I could... not in conscience.

"...a potential condender..." -- ? What will we be contending for in '21-22?


To be fair, with the economic uncertainty, if you can get max years at say, 22 million a season, then it might be worth locking in at this point. There's a lot of craziness going on out in the world right now. No indication that this is his thinking at this point, but I wouldn't write it off.

Were he to choose to go that route though I'd highly consider signing him. It would help to balance the roster a lot more and we could look at the wing slots more.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#275 » by pcbothwel » Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:35 pm

Sorry folks, but you'll are attributing way too much positive impact of Drummond on this team in the hope he gets us over the hump.
No need to overthink this and get too crazy.
Assuming Okongwu is gone at 9...
- Draft Vassell at 9, Pritchard at 37, and sign Noel for the MLE.
- Trade Ish & Robinson for Delon Wright

Wall / Wright / Pritchard
Beal / Vassell / Wright
Brown / Bonga
Rui / Bertans / Bonga
Bryant / Noel / Wagner

I thin many would be shocked how good that team would be.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#276 » by Dark Faze » Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:48 pm

pcbothwel wrote:Sorry folks, but you'll are attributing way too much positive impact of Drummond on this team in the hope he gets us over the hump.
No need to overthink this and get too crazy.
Assuming Okongwu is gone at 9...
- Draft Vassell at 9, Pritchard at 37, and sign Noel for the MLE.
- Trade Ish & Robinson for Delon Wright

Wall / Wright / Pritchard
Beal / Vassell / Wright
Brown / Bonga
Rui / Bertans / Bonga
Bryant / Noel / Wagner

I thin many would be shocked how good that team would be.


Man I dunno. That starting lineup doesn't seem to have any particular goal in mind. The rebounding is terrible, the defense is terrible, you've got 4 guys who arguably are best with the ball in their hand, and a real lack of shooting on the wings.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#277 » by Ruzious » Mon Oct 26, 2020 2:58 pm

pcbothwel wrote:Sorry folks, but you'll are attributing way too much positive impact of Drummond on this team in the hope he gets us over the hump.
No need to overthink this and get too crazy.
Assuming Okongwu is gone at 9...
- Draft Vassell at 9, Pritchard at 37, and sign Noel for the MLE.
- Trade Ish & Robinson for Delon Wright

Wall / Wright / Pritchard
Beal / Vassell / Wright
Brown / Bonga
Rui / Bertans / Bonga
Bryant / Noel / Wagner

I thin many would be shocked how good that team would be.

Not bad. I like the idea of trading for Wright - there's a thread on it in the Trade board. Pritchard's a great pick at 37. Noel's an excellent signing. And I get the interest in Vassell - even though I'd probably trade down. Wright, Vassell, and Noah significantly improve the defense, and Pritchard gives us a good bench guy.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#278 » by WizarDynasty » Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:27 pm

all players good and bad
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#279 » by nate33 » Mon Oct 26, 2020 3:43 pm

doclinkin wrote:
payitforward wrote:"...a potential condender..." -- ? What will we be contending for in '21-22?


We will be contending for retaining Beal and building around a Wall/Beal backcourt. Adding Drummond instantly gives us a mismatch in the front court against all but the most elite teams. A traditional core of stars, with complimentary glue guy players around them, and sudden depth at key positions.

Here's a question. What would the Wizards record have been last year if:

--We substituted Wall for IT. Even say at 80% of Wall's best production.
--Added a Drummond level scorer/rebounder/rim protector.

We lose the worst high usage player in the NBA. Add a former Allstar and team leader. Deepening our bench rotation in the back court of course, but also reducing fouls in our front court from interior penetration. Best estimate I'm thinking about +7 games from that switch alone.

In the front court: no Wagner, Mahinmi, Pascesniks. And we add a player who has missed maybe 6 games in his entire career, so adding bench depth even in man games lost to injury. Yes we would lose starting production from Bryant, but at his best he still was never putting up eight 20/20 games in a row as Drummond has. And he would be free to play hard on defense since there are no worries on him fouling out. We go from dead last in rebounding to top 3rd just by this addition. Worth another half dozen games there.

I think small ball will see a swing towards Bigs again. Giannis and Embiid and Bam in the East. Bron with AD; Jokic and Bigs. Houston has flamed out without size, and is moving on from Moreyball. Montrezl proved too small to play in the playoffs. The Bucks play two seven footers and feast on the East. Basketball is still a Big man's game.
Check out the head to head match-ups of Giannis vs Drummond. Making the Freak look ordinary.

As for fit otherwise, Drummond has actually played the point center role that I've been banging on about. Without the outside shooting to really give him space. Here, even simply with Beal (if not Bertans) he would have a weapon he has never had before. Better space. An uptick in talent, without duplication of roles and positions. I can see the team playing winning ball with that trio. Who is to say they wouldn't contend? Who has a better Big 3 in the East?

Consider that Ted has paid the lux tax for a losing team, out of necessity but also out of loyalty to the players we drafted, re-upping John early, extending Beal, to see what we can get from the guys we drafted. If it were even possible and could guarantee a deep playoff run for exceeding the tax, I expect he would do it.

Yes. We are constrained in what we can offer, and don't have the assets to trade if he (reasonably) renews. Cleveland will probably wait til the trade deadline to see what playoff teams will offer on an expiring contract. But damn. The idea that he is even on the market is one that starts my inner clockworks ticking and buzzing. He's a better passer than he is credited for, more skilled than the role he was always asked to play. If it were a matter of money, well, it's not my money, but I'd love to see what that trio was able to do against the best of the best. It would be a throwback to a traditional team with a traditional Point, Center, and Shooting guard, but really good versions of each of the above. Complementary in their skills and roles.

Probably an opium dream. But rather than play the man from Poorlock, help me build the court of Kubla Kahn a minute. If it were possible, how would it be possible.

It's a moot point. There is no possible way to add Drummond. We don't have the cap room or filler contracts, and Drummond isn't going to take a pay cut all the way down to the MLE.
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Re: Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX 

Post#280 » by Frichuela » Mon Oct 26, 2020 4:19 pm

WizarDynasty wrote:
Ruzious wrote:
pcbothwel wrote:Sorry folks, but you'll are attributing way too much positive impact of Drummond on this team in the hope he gets us over the hump.
No need to overthink this and get too crazy.
Assuming Okongwu is gone at 9...
- Draft Vassell at 9, Pritchard at 37, and sign Noel for the MLE.
- Trade Ish & Robinson for Delon Wright

Wall / Wright / Pritchard
Beal / Vassell / Wright
Brown / Bonga
Rui / Bertans / Bonga
Bryant / Noel / Wagner

I thin many would be shocked how good that team would be.

Not bad. I like the idea of trading for Wright - there's a thread on it in the Trade board. Pritchard's a great pick at 37. Noel's an excellent signing. And I get the interest in Vassell - even though I'd probably trade down. Wright, Vassell, and Noah significantly improve the defense, and Pritchard gives us a good bench guy.


What is that people see in Vassell. He has very marketable personality, i get that. I like the kid's attitude but do you see his right knee--(you can see that his right knee is starting to fail, he doesn't have calf muscle power or quadriceps to absord, the force that he exerts on his landing or dunks. He has very thin legs and uses his joints instead of muscle strength to absorb impact. It's not his fault, just the way his body is built. He definitely did train with heavy weights and squats while his body was growing, or he would much thicker legs. Good fit for others teams, but not wizards. He is built just like Otto Porter, very fragile. He has a great attitude, works hard, and fights, but he is severely limited physically. The type of body frame the wizards need is one like anthony Edwards. If you don't see a guy with that type of athleticism and body type as a wing, then he is not worth drafting in the lottery. He has the same leg and knee structure as otto porter. that type of body structure does not hold up well in the wizards offense or defense.


This! This is one my biggest concerns with Vassell: durability..How will he cope with the physical strain of having to guard NBA big wings?

This is why, should we pick a wing, I rather select an Okoro, Patrick Williams or Saddiq Bey (or even Nesmith, who is stronger/heavier than Vassell).

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