Bean Burrito / Nick Young Appreciation Thread.

[Illuminaire]

[quote="dobrojim"]and I forget, does PER attempt to measure defense?

[quote]

Not really. It measures rebounding, blocks, and steals. Basically, it draws on what you would see in a box score. As such, Hollinger freely admits that it is a poor tool for assessing defensive prowess.

PER is at least more balanced than Winscore, though. I cringe at the thought of what Nick's numbers would look like to Berri, given his love affair with rebounding stats.

[Nivek]

Posted this in the Trade Thread but I'd like to have it here since this is the default thread for tracking Young's progress:

As of now, there are only 12 guys in the league who score as much as Nick on a per-minute basis with a TS% equal or greater. If he keeps this up all year, a fair case can be made that he's a serviceable #1 offensive threat on any team, and a high quality #2 offensive threat on any team. Throw in the fact that he's a two way player and one might consider him to be a, gulp, star-caliber player.

I'm saying this with love and respect, but this may be the most nonsensical thing I've seen you post.

There's more to the game than scoring.

There are 16 players with offensive production comparable to Nick's -- 20+ pts per 36, usage rate of 24 or higher, offensive rating of 108 or better (Nick is at 110). Nick's PER (15.7) ranks last in this group -- 15th is Monta Ellis with a 19.8.

He's tied for last (with Ellis) in rebounds per 36. He's last in assists -- his assists per minute number is half of 15th place. 15th is Boozer. He's 12th in steals, in a virtual tie with noted ballhawks Boozer and Amare. He's 12th in blocks -- right between Russell Westbrook and Kevin Martin. He's tied for 11th in offensive rating, and he ranks 16th in scoring in this group.

He's not All-Star caliber. He's not a #1 option on a good team. Not unless he adds some dimension to his game.

[nate33]

Posted this in the Trade Thread but I'd like to have it here since this is the default thread for tracking Young's progress:

As of now, there are only 12 guys in the league who score as much as Nick on a per-minute basis with a TS% equal or greater. If he keeps this up all year, a fair case can be made that he's a serviceable #1 offensive threat on any team, and a high quality #2 offensive threat on any team. Throw in the fact that he's a two way player and one might consider him to be a, gulp, star-caliber player.

I'm saying this with love and respect, but this may be the most nonsensical thing I've seen you post.

There's more to the game than scoring.

There are 16 players with offensive production comparable to Nick's -- 20+ pts per 36, usage rate of 24 or higher, offensive rating of 108 or better (Nick is at 110). Nick's PER (15.7) ranks last in this group -- 15th is Monta Ellis with a 19.8.

He's tied for last (with Ellis) in rebounds per 36. He's last in assists -- his assists per minute number is half of 15th place. 15th is Boozer. He's 12th in steals, in a virtual tie with noted ballhawks Boozer and Amare. He's 12th in blocks -- right between Russell Westbrook and Kevin Martin. He's tied for 11th in offensive rating, and he ranks 16th in scoring in this group.

He's not All-Star caliber. He's not a #1 option on a good team. Not unless he adds some dimension to his game.

I don't see why steals and blocks should have any bearing on his ability to be a #1 option scorer, nor rebounding for that matter. The biggest knock on him being a primary option scorer is that he's a lousy passer. But does that make him much different from, say, Antawn Jamison of the past two seasons?

I never said Young would be a "good" #1 option, just serviceable. I do think he could be a pretty effective #2 option (if his current production isn't a fluke and can be maintained over 36 minutes a game). You yourself just stated that there are only 16 guys comparable to Nick from a usage/efficiency standpoint. There are 30 teams in the league.

And let me clarify that by "star" I absolutely did not mean "superstar". I means a star in the same tier as somebody like Monta Ellis, Jamison, Caron Butler, Steven Jackson, etc. Not really a great player, but somebody good enough to be mentioned in the byline. i.e. "The Chicago Bulls host the Washington Wizards, featuring John Wall, Nick Young and (good big man not yet on roster)".

[fishercob]

Posted this in the Trade Thread but I'd like to have it here since this is the default thread for tracking Young's progress:

As of now, there are only 12 guys in the league who score as much as Nick on a per-minute basis with a TS% equal or greater. If he keeps this up all year, a fair case can be made that he's a serviceable #1 offensive threat on any team, and a high quality #2 offensive threat on any team. Throw in the fact that he's a two way player and one might consider him to be a, gulp, star-caliber player.

I'm saying this with love and respect, but this may be the most nonsensical thing I've seen you post.

There's more to the game than scoring.

There are 16 players with offensive production comparable to Nick's -- 20+ pts per 36, usage rate of 24 or higher, offensive rating of 108 or better (Nick is at 110). Nick's PER (15.7) ranks last in this group -- 15th is Monta Ellis with a 19.8.

He's tied for last (with Ellis) in rebounds per 36. He's last in assists -- his assists per minute number is half of 15th place. 15th is Boozer. He's 12th in steals, in a virtual tie with noted ballhawks Boozer and Amare. He's 12th in blocks -- right between Russell Westbrook and Kevin Martin. He's tied for 11th in offensive rating, and he ranks 16th in scoring in this group.

He's not All-Star caliber. He's not a #1 option on a good team. Not unless he adds some dimension to his game.

I don't see why steals and blocks should have any bearing on his ability to be a #1 option scorer, nor rebounding for that matter. The biggest knock on him being a primary option scorer is that he's a lousy passer. But does that make him much different from, say, Antawn Jamison of the past two seasons?

I never said Young would be a "good" #1 option, just serviceable. I do think he could be a pretty effective #2 option (if his current production isn't a fluke and can be maintained over 36 minutes a game). You yourself just stated that there are only 16 guys comparable to Nick from a usage/efficiency standpoint. There are 30 teams in the league.

And let me clarify that by "star" I absolutely did not mean "superstar". I means a star in the same tier as somebody like Monta Ellis, Jamison, Caron Butler, Steven Jackson, etc. Not really a great player, but somebody good enough to be mentioned in the byline. i.e. "The Chicago Bulls host the Washington Wizards, featuring John Wall, Nick Young and (good big man not yet on roster)".

I guess the point is he could be a #2 offensive threat on any bad team, not on any team. Good players have many players good at many things and a few specialists. Bad teams have many players good at one or two things.

Teams are going to take away some of Young's strengths with a little more scouting. Young MUST find other ways to contribute if the Wizards are going to be any good and him playing big minutes. He needs to create possessions on the boards, get to the line, assist his teammates, etc. Look around the league -- there are a lot of specialists, but not a lot that play big minutes and even fewer that play big minutes on good teams. Young is a scoring specialist and little more right now.

All those guys you listed above -- if they're the second best player on a team, that team is probably pretty bad.

[Nivek]

I mention the other stat categories because they have a bearing on whether he could stay on the floor for a good team.

I'd like to be wrong, but I don't see Nick entering even the star level you're describing. He's a good scorer on a bad team. I don't think he has the mental makeup to do the same on a good team.

[DallasShalDune]

I agree that NY does fit our SG position perfectly for our John Wall led, Flip Saunders coached team. Someone previously posted everything that NY fills, so I won't repeat. Now, if we could replace him with a better player, we should, but until then, we don't need to sell high because he fills a need. If a team offers a package that benefits us as much as having NY on the floor, we'd be dumb to listen, but there is no reason to shop NY. He fills a need. 'nuff said.

[Ed Wood]

Yeah, while Nick has been wonderful by his standards this year and has earned a hopefully reasonable additional NBA playcheck when prior to this year he would have probably remained in the league as a result of momentum as much as anything but he's not a first option on a good team. Nick is currently 14th among NBA shooting guards in PER, which is crazy to me because it's Nick but still ultimately not really evidence that he's a really excellent player.

Even guys who are pretty similar (ie they score a lot, don't do much else) at shooting guard but are significantly more effective than Nick have generally been pretty ineffective as first or second options. Eric Gordon is actually a little better than Nick as a rebounder (ugh) and a much better passer and better scorer and the Clippers currently suck with him sort of sharing first option duties with Blake Griffin. Ellis is a better scorer, significantly better passer and not really much worse at rebounding, has decent backup in David Lee, Steph Curry and Dorrell Wright and the Warriors are still kinda eh. Leandro Barbosa has been roughly as effective offensively as a second option on the Raptors and they blow. Kevin Martin is like Nick on his best day every day and as a first option for the Rockets and Houston is only okay, though more because of defensive issues than anything. Nick would be like the fourth best player maybe on a good team.

By the way Kevin Martin is scoring 29.7 points per 40 with a TS% of 62.1%, holy ****.

edit: As for trading Nick, trade anybody you can get more than fair value for. Know what they're worth an look for more, always.

[pancakes3]

Teams are going to take away some of Young's strengths with a little more scouting. Young MUST find other ways to contribute if the Wizards are going to be any good and him playing big minutes. He needs to create possessions on the boards, get to the line, assist his teammates, etc. Look around the league -- there are a lot of specialists, but not a lot that play big minutes and even fewer that play big minutes on good teams. Young is a scoring specialist and little more right now.

All those guys you listed above -- if they're the second best player on a team, that team is probably pretty bad.

well, nick's strengths right now are hard to take away. he's coming off screens and nailing 3 point jumpers. the only way you really take away what he does is face-guard him and basically give him durant/kobe treatment with some serious hustle and ball-denial. if opposing teams want to gameplan around Nick, go for it. it just makes the lane that much more wide open for wall to drive. do you live with taking away nick's 16 ppg right now or do you shut him down and give Wall a shot at 30+?

to beat a dead horse, if you give nick more offensive freedoms? that would cause problems with improved scouting. even a layman such as myself can see that if nick gets less-than-ideal shots, his %'s will plummet, and his TO's are going to rise. He's not very good making decisions with the ball (as evidenced with his step-out-of-bounds play) and if you pressure him... bad things will happen. However, as it is now, in the wake of the best game of his life? I can see him being no worse than jamal crawford, jason richardson, or any other perfectly serviceable sg out there.

the rebounds will be harder to come by though. he was getting more boards than usual, but if we keep going with the tall frontcourt lineup of McGee, Blatche, and Lewis, and all 3 continue to grab 8+ rpg, and wall/hinny being good rebounding guards in their own right? There's really not enough boards to go Nick's way.

also, nick's game right now isn't really conducive to him making assists. he's coming off screens, with open looks. if the shot isn't there, he gives it RIGHT back to wall. if you want nick to get more assists, you either need to trust him to make plays (aka DRIBBLE) or you want his vision to somehow "get better" and the interior guys - lewis and blatche - to get open on their own. i have doubts for either.

as for the idea that nick can't be the #2 option of a championship team? debatable. it depends on how good that #1 option is, and how bad the #3 (or 2b) option is. if wall turns out to be an all-nba-er like Chris Paul, Blatche lives up to his KG lite potential, Shard becoming a poor man's pippen, and McGee filling out to be Camby 2.0? Nick could very well be the #2 offensive option on a deep playoff team.

anyway, this thread is really not so much Nick Young appreciation anymore but rather "the battle over N1's immortal soul". let's go pick some nits on 'Dre.

[DallasShalDune]

Yeah, while Nick has been wonderful by his standards this year and has earned a hopefully reasonable additional NBA playcheck when prior to this year he would have probably remained in the league as a result of momentum as much as anything but he's not a first option on a good team. Nick is currently 14th among NBA shooting guards in PER, which is crazy to me because it's Nick but still ultimately not really evidence that he's a really excellent player.

Even guys who are pretty similar (ie they score a lot, don't do much else) at shooting guard but are significantly more effective than Nick have generally been pretty ineffective as first or second options. Eric Gordon is actually a little better than Nick as a rebounder (ugh) and a much better passer and better scorer and the Clippers currently suck with him sort of sharing first option duties with Blake Griffin. Ellis is a better scorer, significantly better passer and not really much worse at rebounding, has decent backup in David Lee, Steph Curry and Dorrell Wright and the Warriors are still kinda eh. Leandro Barbosa has been roughly as effective offensively as a second option on the Raptors and they blow. Kevin Martin is like Nick on his best day every day and as a first option for the Rockets and Houston is only okay, though more because of defensive issues than anything. Nick would be like the fourth best player maybe on a good team.

By the way Kevin Martin is scoring 29.7 points per 40 with a TS% of 62.1%, holy ****.

edit: As for trading Nick, trade anybody you can get more than fair value for. Know what they're worth an look for more, always.

Nick is a better defender then they are, at least. Like DeShawn, except he is faster and can create his own shot.

[tontoz]

Teams are going to take away some of Young's strengths with a little more scouting. Young MUST find other ways to contribute if the Wizards are going to be any good and him playing big minutes. He needs to create possessions on the boards, get to the line, assist his teammates, etc. Look around the league -- there are a lot of specialists, but not a lot that play big minutes and even fewer that play big minutes on good teams. Young is a scoring specialist and little more right now.

All those guys you listed above -- if they're the second best player on a team, that team is probably pretty bad.

well, nick's strengths right now are hard to take away. he's coming off screens and nailing 3 point jumpers. the only way you really take away what he does is face-guard him and basically give him durant/kobe treatment with some serious hustle and ball-denial. if opposing teams want to gameplan around Nick, go for it. it just makes the lane that much more wide open for wall to drive. do you live with taking away nick's 16 ppg right now or do you shut him down and give Wall a shot at 30+?

I would argue that on a good team with better offensive options Nick would get easier looks. Right now he is taking a lot of long, contested 2s which are the toughest shots to make. On a better team i believe he would be getting more open looks from 3 which is where he killed Sactown. Plus when guys run him off the 3 pt line he can easily drive past them.

A guy who can score well without dominating the ball and play defense has a lot of value even if it doesn't show up in PER.

[fishercob]

From Mike Lee at the Post

Young said that when he got home, he spoke with his mother, father, and his brothers. He also got a lot of Facebook messages and found an interesting text message from Gilbert Arenas. "I looked at my phone, it said, "You learned from the master.' "

But when he arrived for practice on Wednesday, Young didn't find that his teammates and coaches to be in such a congratulatory mood. Instead of praise, they gave him a good ribbing for his post-game theatrics. "Been trying to humble me all day," Young said, smiling. "Just talking trash, about me bowing and all that. It's bringing me back down."

Yay teammates and coaches.

[verbal8]

From Mike Lee at the Post

Young said that when he got home, he spoke with his mother, father, and his brothers. He also got a lot of Facebook messages and found an interesting text message from Gilbert Arenas. "I looked at my phone, it said, "You learned from the master.' "

But when he arrived for practice on Wednesday, Young didn't find that his teammates and coaches to be in such a congratulatory mood. Instead of praise, they gave him a good ribbing for his post-game theatrics. "Been trying to humble me all day," Young said, smiling. "Just talking trash, about me bowing and all that. It's bringing me back down."

Yay teammates and coaches.

Maybe there is something to this culture change idea.

[closg00]

Nick Young was unable to practice this afternoon because of soreness in his left knee and he was unsure if he would be available on Saturday when the Wizards host the Toronto Raptors

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/wizardsinsider/

[hands11]

Wow, just when we finally got to have everyone healthy for 1 practice then.

Howard was back out.
Dray down with a shoulder
Now Nick hurting with a knee

So Nick has been balln though a sore knee. News to me. Well, he did miss that one game so I guess it lingering is to be expected.

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/wizardsinsider/

Young said he first started feeling discomfort last month in New Jersey and has been wearing a knee brace the past 13 games. He scored 15 points in the Wizards' 109-97 loss in Minnesota, hitting a three-pointer to give the team a four-point lead with less than six minutes remaining. But when he arrived at Verizon Center on Friday, Young said the pain was too unbearable to participate in practice.

"It's been bothering me for a while and I've just been treating it, and treating it, everyday," he said. "It's kind of starting to wear down on me. And before it gets worse, I just want to build it up and fix it, a little bit."

Mike Miller Returns To Action.
Andray Blatche did practice and is expecting to be available against Toronto after missing the loss to Minnesota with a sprained right shoulder. "If he comes back, I don't know how totally effective he's going to be because he's not 100 percent," Saunders said. "But one thing about Dray, he's not afraid to play with pain. As long as we know he's not going to hurt it any more, he probably would try to extend and try to play if he can, just give us another big body guy and a lot presence."

[hands11]

Not only did Nick suck it up and play with a sore knee, but in the 2nd quarter he was

MICRO NICK

Great to see everyone keep feeding him the ball when he was hot. That is something I haven't seen this team do in a long time. Now, I have seen it twice in like three games. That is a good sign that players can check their egos and just feed the hot hand, I mean Nick.

Nick is so much more mentally tough this year. He got off to a slow first quarter but still brought it.

And happy to see he was near the 20 shots range I wanted to see him at. 10-19 and that was with only 2-7 from 3. 7-9 from the line with many coming down the stretch when they were fouling up on the in bound plays to stop the clock. 29 pts 6 rebounds 4 assists 1 steal

Post Game. Nick says they are still trying to make the playoffs. It may not happen but at least he is still driving and focused on fight for something.

Nick continues to grow mentally and in his extending his game.

[The Fax]

I wonder what his asking price is going to be this summer

[JWizmentality]

He should have gotten Blatche Snatch's contract.

[Wizards2Lottery]

He's averaging 22 points, 3 rebounds and 2 assists in his last 10 games. His points, assists and rebound have all steadily increased every month of the season.

I don't think it's a stretch that Nick will eventually start adding other dimensions to his game. With teams respecting his outside shot a lot more, he will have easier opportunities to attack the rim. I don't know what the stats show but I've seen him attack the rim with a lot more confidence than we have in the past.

The better he gets at taking his man off the dribble into the paint, the better chances he will have at assists.

With the steady improvement in his stats since the start of the season, I think given the benefit of the experience he got this year along with another offseason, he can really average 20 points, 4 rebounds and around 4 assists a game. Add that along with his solid defense, that's a really productive SG.

For a team that has as much talent issues as we do, we really can't afford to be picky in regards to who we keep and who we don't.

[nuposse04]

I have no problem paying him now, I just want to see the same Nick Young on the road. Offensively I still think he is our best player right now. I'd rather he have the ball in shot clock expiration plays as well.

[tontoz]

I have no problem paying him now, I just want to see the same Nick Young on the road. Offensively I still think he is our best player right now. I'd rather he have the ball in shot clock expiration plays as well.

On the road Nick is averaging 13 ppg shooting 43%, 38.5% from 3. Obviously this is well below his home production but it isnt that bad.