Discussing Other NBA Games 2.0

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

http://www.hoopsstats.com/basketball/fa ... /11/26/365

Cousins won 20 and lost 20 as a rookie. Had some of his best games against Pau and Marc Gasol, Tyson Chandler, and Roy Hibbert. As a rookie DeMarcus also won matchups against Duncan and Garnett. Four of his lost matchups were to Nene.

Cousins had less expectations and arguably a better rookie season than Wall, tontoz.

At no time did Cousins look like a bust. (Coach killer, yes. Bust, no.) I commented many times Cousins wasn't as good as I thought he would be. He can't finish well inside and lacks the athleticism to be an elite talent. I admitted as much many times last season, tontoz.

My boy Cousins, at 21, is second in the NBA in rebounding percentage. He has improved tremendously, despite his past two games, one against the Wizards. FWIW, McGee plays him well and so does Seraphin. Cousins had his worst rookie outing against Javale.

Right now, I would say that Wall and Cousins are both great young players. I would love to have Cousins at PF with McGee at C and Wall at PG. No more arguing and a whole lot better team.

[TGW]

What I saw from Cousins the other night pretty much confirms what I think he'll be for his career...Zach Randolph 2.0

In other words, a career loser.

[Zonkerbl]

What is up with Cousins though? Why is he so ineffective? He just disappeared right out of the Wiz-Sacto game -- I mean, even before he cried uncle to Kevin. That's the second time I've seen him do that against the wiz -- have two or three totally awesome possessions and then disappear for the rest of the game.

[tontoz]

Cousins had less expectations and arguably a better rookie season than Wall, tontoz.

At no time did Cousins look like a bust.

Fat ass couldn't get his TS% over 50(still can't), had a PER lower than a banged up Wall, had multiple attitude episodes but he never looked like a bust?

That's worth another

You couldnt be any more obviously biased.

I am still waiting to hear you explain how 16.4/8.3 for a rookie pg was disappointment.

[DaRealHibachi]

You do understand that Wall will lose more matchups at the PG position because it's a relatively more difficult and talented than the C position, right?

Those numbers mean nothing; there's way too many variables involved... Wall almost had a triple double the other night, doesn't mean that much since his team still lost... The only numbers that matter are those in the W-L column, and if I remember correctly, the Kings were just as bad as we were last year...

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Cousins had less expectations and arguably a better rookie season than Wall, tontoz.

At no time did Cousins look like a bust.

Fat ass couldn't get his TS% over 50(still can't), had a PER lower than a banged up Wall, had multiple attitude episodes but he never looked like a bust?

That's worth another

You couldnt be any more obviously biased.

I am still waiting to hear you explain how 16.4/8.3 for a rookie pg was disappointment.

I was disappointed with Wall. He was not appreciably better than Brandon Jennings or Jru Holiday and their teams had better records. The points and assists are fine if you ignore Wall's rookie FG%, the FG% of his opponents, that he lost more match ups than he won, and that the Wizards had a terrible record despite having the top overall pick and a veteran, winning coach. I thought the #1 overall should be better as a rookie. I really shouldn't say I was disappointed, because before he was drafted I thought he would struggle.

My opinion is just an opinion. So is yours. I don't want to keep going around and around on this.

Wall just started playing like I expect a #1 pick to play. Check the trade board and you will see a few others were posting Wall trades. Guys on this board, tontoz.

If you want to deflect any and all Wall criticism and talk about "my boy" Cousins, fine. It will not change my opinion any more than all sorts of facts will change yours. Both Cousins and Wall will be in the NBA for a long, long time.

[tontoz]

Your fascination with matchups is just further evidence of your obvious bias. Todays era is one of the strongest ever at the point and one of the weakest ever at c. Not to mention Wall was playing hurt much of the season which obviously hindered his defense.

In spite of the fact he was hurt he still shot better than 270 pound Cousins who played center. His assists were higher as a rookie than any of the top pgs in the game today had in their rookie years.

You saw what you wanted to see.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

tontoz, why was Wall selected after Irving by Barkley and Shaq and why is he coming off the bench today? If this is such a strong PG era, why is a rookie being more highly esteemed than John Wall by two future HOFers? If Wall were considered a great success would he be slighted? I don't think so.

I might have seen what I want to see, but I am not alone, tontoz.

The only reason why I offered matchup info is you were not swayed by FG shooting. I really wanted to point out that PGs like Jennings, Holiday, and most recently Isaiah Thomas have their way with Wall some nights. Last season, he lost most of his matchups and by that criteria, Wall was not even an average NBA starting PG.

This season, he is well-above average and has recently improved dramatically. Whether or not his injuries last year caused him to struggle is relevant. Was he injured in December and January, when Flip got fired and none of the guards could shoot 40%? Or, has coaching and personnel changes and a more up tempo style of play helped Wall? I would say the latter. Wall is playing with much more confidence now.

[Dat2U]

CCJ who gives a f* about some rising stars game? It's a freaking popularity contest. We aren't even talking about a real all-star game for goodness sakes. And Kemba Walker & Marshon Brooks were selected ahead of Wall. It means absolutely nothing! And just because a guy is a HOF'er doesn't mean he's an excellent judge of basketball talent. Weren't you here for the MJ era as GM??? Haven't we seen enough evidence that a lot of these former great basketball players make terrible GM's?

And I honestly don't understand why your focusing so much on individual matchups. You, I and anyone else knows that so much goes into determining success on the basketball court beyond those matchups. Basketball is not played one-on-one so placing such heavy emphasis on those individual statistics is flawed. How much would Wall be helped by bigs that rotate correctly, show hard on pick & rolls and actually challenge or change shots?

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Up until recently, I could have said how much would bigs be helped by a PG who could hit an outside shot, and who had decent ability to run a team in half court; instead of having a PG who puts his head down and heads straight toward the basket like a missile when he doesn't take quick shots or try to win games playing hero ball. Wall has had other problems besides lousy teammates.

I could also say that Javale only has one guard, Nick Young, who does a reasonably good job as a man defender. Opposing guards get into the lane at will, particularly opposing PGs, most nights. Also, they frequently get open jumpers.

Every attempt at pointing out a Wall deficiency to Dat, tontoz, and others just results in them attacking my point of view on something else. Bring up Cousins or the bigs or Wall's teammates but do not address Wall's defense or his shooting, which until February 2012 was a major weakness. Also, match ups ARE important. When Calderon destroys Wall, you can't blame that on the bigs.

I keep saying all of the reasons I was disappointed with Wall. Not that I am still disappointed with him. He seems to be playing with a whole lot more poise and is very decisive on offense. His midrange shot looks good. His assists are ever climbing but his turnovers are not climbing. Wall has made some really spectacular defensive plays in transition, and I agree his woes on defense do seem to be more with the system of defending PnR and not with any weakness in his game--with the exception of quicker/shiftier guards getting inside.

I like what Wall is doing now. I wouldn't have said that a month ago.

[tontoz]

The matchup argument is just a joke. Ever hear of a pick and roll? Do you think the Wizards defend it well? You could put Rondo on this team and any pg would score on him easily just by running a pick and roll with Mcgee's man.

Just last game Mcgee purposely let a player get to the rim so he could make a blatant goaltend.

Every attempt at pointing out a Wall deficiency to Dat, tontoz, and others just results in them attacking my point of view on something else

Do you want me to pull up the game threads from Jan last season when i was dogging Wall's lack of defense? I was so critical of Wall in the game threads that Dat wanted me suspended.

We are commenting on your obvious bias. You didn't want to draft Wall and that colors your judgement. you focus repeatedly Dec-Jan last year while ignoring what he did the last 3 months of the season because that suits your agenda.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Okay, tontoz. Whatever you say. This is beyond pointless.

(Dec-Jan this season of this season. I said a lot and you didn't even comprehend the simplest part. Just put me on ignore.)

[tontoz]

Okay, tontoz. Whatever you say. This is beyond pointless.

I'll tell you what is pointless is saying the exact same thing dozens of times in multiple threads. Nobody on this board made more pointless posts than you did with your relentless tirades against Flip. Flip is gone but the team still sucks.

You invite abuse with your comments. If you just commented on Wall's problems (poor shooting, too many turnovers, etc) then you wouldn't find so much resistance. But when you run around saying Wall is overrated, looks like a bust, we should consider trading him for whatever over and over and over, you are just putting a "kick me" sign on your back. Then you whine when you get kicked. Need a tissue?

[tontoz]

(Dec-Jan this season of this season. I said a lot and you didn't even comprehend the simplest part. Just put me on ignore.)

You do realize they played only 3 games in december of this season, right?

I thought John Wall started out last season with a few very strong games early, but went into a terrible slump after some injury issues. I don't recall him playing well the last three months.

That is called a selective memory.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

viewtopic.php?f=6&t=1163630

[hands11]

Lin came close to a double double, 8 points and 8 turnovers. 1-11 from the field, 3 assists.... if Wall had a game like that this board would flip out.

We'd have the amazingly sucky John Wall thread, complete with JJ calling Wall the B' word, hands saying Wall is an idiot and too much like Gilbert and CCJ reminding us how great it would have been if the Wizards listened to him and traded Wall for Cousins and a pick instead.

Lin IS a good NBA player but I don't think he was ever the savior that NY and the media were starting to make him out to be. He doesn't make NY a contender and he's really benefited from a combination of perfect timing and an ideal PG friendly system that fits his skillset nicely.

Lin is a great story considering he was on the verge of getting cut but he's not an elite player and it was unfair to make him out to be one.

He was playing like an idiot. When he stopped, I gave him props for it. When he started it up again, I called it like that. Then he got better again. He has been up and down this year. But of late, he is playing a lot better and his outside shot is looking better. Now he is doing what I said he should be doing, he is making the pass and letting the system break where it is broken so that is highlighted instead of him trying to save the day, which he can't.

Someone on the board called him out for jawing with Isiah which you had no problem with though Isiah was quoted as saying that he told Wall wait for the second half. Then Isiah showed him. Yeah, I said I saw a little more Gil in him then I liked and I stand by that. Kyrie is defiantly a more mature person and player. But Wall is the better athlete.

Kyrie as a rookie is shooting .476 and .415 from 3 with 5 dimes and 3.5 rebounds 18 pts.

As for Lin, he is averaging 21 pts on .471 8 asst 4 rebounds for Feb. and the team is 9-3 with him starting. They were 2-11 prior to that.

[hands11]

CCJ: Cousins and a pick likely would have been available and was an interesting argument, but Irving and a pick? I doubt Cleveland was offering us the 1 and 4 for Wall, so that's a bit of a strawman.

You're right that Lin's handle was bad in the Miami game, but it's always seemed pretty weak to me. He has an excellent first dribble where he leans his whole body, and he can do that in either direction, but otherwise he struggles going left.

I agree with you, willbcocks, that Cleveland wouldn't have given up both 2011 draft pick (#1 and #4) for Wall. However, I do think they might have given up Irving and their 2012 1st round pick (top 3-5 protected) for Wall. In this draft, if held today Cleveland would have the #10 pick. In theory, the Wizards could have exchanged Irving plus someone like Arnett Moulrie or Tyler Zeller for Wall.

It's all speculation and I respect Dat a bunch. I just don't think he can say with certainty trading for either of those guys and a pick is worse than having John Wall.

On Jeremy Lin, you're right about him on both counts, IMO. His handle is a bit loose and he doesn't go to his left nearly as well as his right. The Heat scouted him and forced him repeatedly to his weakness. Other teams do not defend that well. Also, I think JR Smith and Iman Shumpert need to help handle the ball more when Lin is under duress.

The Knicks are still way better in a short amount of time, and Lin is no fluke.

Kyrie for Wall and getting a pick was a deal I was talking about pre draft as well but never really though Cleveland was going to do it. Kyrie was to good of a pick for them.

As for this running debate...Damn you have a lot of patience CCJ. Hey, at least you tried and stayed calm. You get a gold star for that.

[queridiculo]

I always love the post draft, revisionist trade scenarios that have the Wizards get away with highway robbery. What makes those scenarios even funnier to me is how matter-of-factly they're being thrown around...

[tontoz]

I think I'll step aside and let CCJ argue with himself. This post is from the end of last season.

I don't really have a problem with closing the case on that. I also believe Wall is going to become a superstar in about 3 years.

My favorite moments and newfound appreciation Wall have occurred very recently. I like his response to Ilgauskas. John's not a big guy, but he at least tried to hit Ilgauskas. That response is instinctive. Some guys cower down and some guys fight back. I know which one Wall is.

But the best part is a quote that I can't find or else I'd link it. After the final game Wall made the comment that he couldn't believe the season was already over. I realize he missed a lot of games injured and he struggled at times, but his resolve was that of a guy just getting started. He spoke with optimism and a tone of how he couldn't wait to work on some things.

That IS a winner right there. He's a very young man, not even close to physically mature. However, he's already got the right mindset. He is going to fight to get better.

DCZards, I agree on the potential superstar.

viewtopic.php?f=35&t=1081934&start=240

Below are posts he made yesterday in this thread.

I thought John Wall started out last season with a few very strong games early, but went into a terrible slump after some injury issues. I don't recall him playing well the last three months.

I didn't like his game and wondered if he was a bust until recently.

And last but not least.

My opinions don't fluctuate wildly like a mood swing.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

CCJ: Cousins and a pick likely would have been available and was an interesting argument, but Irving and a pick? I doubt Cleveland was offering us the 1 and 4 for Wall, so that's a bit of a strawman.

You're right that Lin's handle was bad in the Miami game, but it's always seemed pretty weak to me. He has an excellent first dribble where he leans his whole body, and he can do that in either direction, but otherwise he struggles going left.

I agree with you, willbcocks, that Cleveland wouldn't have given up both 2011 draft pick (#1 and #4) for Wall. However, I do think they might have given up Irving and their 2012 1st round pick (top 3-5 protected) for Wall. In this draft, if held today Cleveland would have the #10 pick. In theory, the Wizards could have exchanged Irving plus someone like Arnett Moulrie or Tyler Zeller for Wall.

It's all speculation and I respect Dat a bunch. I just don't think he can say with certainty trading for either of those guys and a pick is worse than having John Wall.

On Jeremy Lin, you're right about him on both counts, IMO. His handle is a bit loose and he doesn't go to his left nearly as well as his right. The Heat scouted him and forced him repeatedly to his weakness. Other teams do not defend that well. Also, I think JR Smith and Iman Shumpert need to help handle the ball more when Lin is under duress.

The Knicks are still way better in a short amount of time, and Lin is no fluke.

Kyrie for Wall and getting a pick was a deal I was talking about pre draft as well but never really though Cleveland was going to do it. Kyrie was to good of a pick for them.

As for this running debate...Damn you have a lot of patience CCJ. Hey, at least you tried and stayed calm. You get a gold star for that.

Thanks, hands.

I don't even think photographic evidence, fingerprints, and DNA evidence could have convinced tontoz.