Grunfeld a Great GM. Proves Doubters Wrong

[TGW]

Signing Gooden was simply coincidence. The Wizards needed another bigman after Nene got hurt. If Nene doesn't get hurt, Gooden isn't on this team. Period.

[montestewart]

If some of you can find nothing positive to say about Ernie Grunfeld and his management of the Wizards, at least be fair and give credit where it is due. Drew Gooden, averaging 17 points and 8.5 rebounds the past 4 games. Outstanding acquisition. His production far outweighs his contract value.

I got no problem giving EG credit for picking up Gooden and Miller, even if they were just happy accidents that cam eabout from trying to repair previous bad moves. He's made some good moves through the years (Kwame for Caron), but the scales have always been tilted toward the suck end of the spectrum, and I'd have to write a WizD-style epic to cover all the bad moves.

[McFilthy]

I have to give Ernie credit. He has cleaned up some messes. Wait...who made those messes?

[ptptpt]

If some of you can find nothing positive to say about Ernie Grunfeld and his management of the Wizards, at least be fair and give credit where it is due. Drew Gooden, averaging 17 points and 8.5 rebounds the past 4 games. Outstanding acquisition. His production far outweighs his contract value.

So? He's not the main piece that will bring this team a ring in the near future. You are gonna have to big up yourselves better than that of Drew Gooden. He's no Anthony Davis. Instead of trying to convince us of these current moves, what is the plan for the future? Keep this roster together and ride the waves of lukewarm playoff appearances? That's only gonna be good enough for a few seasons. Reality is you are gonna have to bring in or draft somebody that is better than Wall. Wall's not gonna carry this team by himself and the talent around him ain't enough. And you guys in management deep down know it too.

[TGW]

If some of you can find nothing positive to say about Ernie Grunfeld and his management of the Wizards, at least be fair and give credit where it is due. Drew Gooden, averaging 17 points and 8.5 rebounds the past 4 games. Outstanding acquisition. His production far outweighs his contract value.

So? He's not the main piece that will bring this team a ring in the near future. You are gonna have to big up yourselves better than that of Drew Gooden. He's no Anthony Davis. Instead of trying to convince us of these current moves, what is the plan for the future? Keep this roster together and ride the waves of lukewarm playoff appearances? That's only gonna be good enough for a few seasons. Reality is you are gonna have to bring in or draft somebody that is better than Wall. Wall's not gonna carry this team by himself and the talent around him ain't enough. And you guys in management deep down know it too.

He's had several opportunities to draft a semi-competent young bigman. So many wasted 1st round picks on losers it's hard to stomach. But this clown thinks Grunfeld deserves credit for Gooden, who was basically ousted out of the league.

[dckingsfan]

If some of you can find nothing positive to say about Ernie Grunfeld and his management of the Wizards, at least be fair and give credit where it is due. Drew Gooden, averaging 17 points and 8.5 rebounds the past 4 games. Outstanding acquisition. His production far outweighs his contract value.

EG has done some good things as the GM - we are just objectively grading his entire body of work rather than individual moves.

I can play cards and be really happy about that hand I won - even if I lost $10K for the entire game. Kind of the same with EG.

[dckingsfan]

I would argue that defense is the biggest hole in Beal's game.

He could use some work on defense -- he rates a bit below average in the defense part of my metric. But, I think shot selection is the bigger issue.

OK, I have him rated more than a bit below on D. My metric but also drb%, stl%, blk% - but you have some different metrics than I do - and they could very well be more accurate.

But - I am definitely not arguing about the long 2s - I just think he could make a bigger jump next year on the defensive end of the court.

Any insights appreciated.

[hands11]

If some of you can find nothing positive to say about Ernie Grunfeld and his management of the Wizards, at least be fair and give credit where it is due. Drew Gooden, averaging 17 points and 8.5 rebounds the past 4 games. Outstanding acquisition. His production far outweighs his contract value.

Do you really think Ernie would have signed Gooden if Nene didn't get hurt? Gooden just happened to have been working out in the Verizon Center and in the area when Nene went down. Ernie just picked the most convenient vet available.

That's an interesting way of framing things.

Any team in the league could have made a move to sign Gooden. None did. Not for more then half the season. EG did sign him. It was a good signing. And Gooden can be resigned for vet min next year while MIL pays his 6.8M contract. We can do a Dray on MIL. That makes the move a B+ to A+

The Gooden signing was a good move. If he resigns its a great move. EG get credit for this.

Call the sinkers what they are. Call the good moves what they are.

[hands11]

If some of you can find nothing positive to say about Ernie Grunfeld and his management of the Wizards, at least be fair and give credit where it is due. Drew Gooden, averaging 17 points and 8.5 rebounds the past 4 games. Outstanding acquisition. His production far outweighs his contract value.

EG has done some good things as the GM - we are just objectively grading his entire body of work rather than individual moves.

I can play cards and be really happy about that hand I won - even if I lost $10K for the entire game. Kind of the same with EG.

Thats a fair way to divide things. But when talking about overall vs individual moves you also have to define different time frames if you want to have a relevant conversation. Its hard to have that conversation here because people focus on different time frames as relevant.

What is the time frame ?
Some feel the time frame is this year over last. Some feel its since Ted took over. Some think its since he was the Wizards GM. Some feel its his entire GM work. A case can be made for each of those as viable but some look at them separately, in context and weighted differently. The longer the time frame, the more variables there are.

Clearly some fans, specially new ones, look at this year over last or this year over two years or this year over since Ted as the more relevant conversation to have. For those who have prebaked everything is failure, the progress is a sell out dead end so they don't see progress as progress. Those people tend to find something bad in every move and always frame things and add speculation to make it that way. Or they change the conversation to something longer term that was bad that supports their negative take things. For those that understand the offseason is a huge blank slate, they see progress or progress toward something that can keep getting better so they are enjoying the good moves and more wins. Gooden was a good move so you find some fans of the Wizards enjoying things getting better year over year.

That's what goes on here.

Year over year is a win.
The combined moves both good and bad, improved med staff, etc. has added up to 7 more wins than last year so far with 13 games to go. Lets say they end up at 14 games better then last year. That 48% more wins.

No way you can ignore the validity of some fans seeing that as progress. Now you can change the time frame to draw the conversation into something negative, but evaluating things on shorter time frames is also relevant. It why people looking at stock look at different windows as well. I'm in a stock that tanked when the banks failed. It bottomed out at like 6. I got in after that. Its now at 14 and paying a 10% dividend. I wasn't in it before it tanked so I don't evaluate it based on that. Its an interesting reference point, but not more important then what it is doing for me know.

Not knowing what the offseason brings, it perfectly valid for fans to look at this data as a positive.

[montestewart]

If some of you can find nothing positive to say about Ernie Grunfeld and his management of the Wizards, at least be fair and give credit where it is due. Drew Gooden, averaging 17 points and 8.5 rebounds the past 4 games. Outstanding acquisition. His production far outweighs his contract value.

EG has done some good things as the GM - we are just objectively grading his entire body of work rather than individual moves.

I can play cards and be really happy about that hand I won - even if I lost $10K for the entire game. Kind of the same with EG.

Thats a fair way to divide things. But when talking about overall vs individual moves you also have to define different time frames if you want to have a relevant conversation. Its hard to have that conversation here because people focus on different time frames as relevant. Some feel the time frame is this year over last. Some feel its since Ted took over. Some think its since he was the Wizards GM. Some feel its his entire GM work. A case can be made for each of those as viable but some look at them separately, in context and weighted differently. The longer the time frame, the more variables there are.

Clearly some fans, specially new ones, look at this year over last or this year over two years or this year over since Ted as the more relevant conversation to have. For those who have prebaked everything is failure, the progress is a sell out dead end so they don't see progress as progress. Those people tend to find something bad in every move and always frame things and add speculation to make it that way. Or they change the conversation to something longer term that was bad that supports their negative take things. For those that understand the offseason is a huge blank slate, they see progress or progress toward something that can keep getting better so they are enjoying the good moves and more wins. Gooden was a good move so you find some fans of the Wizards enjoying things getting better year over year.

That's what goes on here.

Year over year ?
The combined moves both good and bad, improved med staff, etc. has added up to 7 more wins than last year so far with 13 games to go. Lets say they end up at 14 games better then last year. That 48% more wins.

No way you can ignore the validity of some fans seeing that as progress. Now you can change the time frame to draw the conversation into something negative, but evaluating things on shorter time frames is also relevant. It why people looking at stock look at different windows as well.

Not knowing what the offseason brings, it perfectly valid for fans to look at this data as a positive.

When Gilbert Arenas was the center piece of the franchise mini-renaissance, a lot of fans got stuck in comparing him to pass first PGs and more vocal leaders, and comparing the high octane offense-oriented team to a more balanced team with aggressive team defense and tough interior muscle.

But the team had an electric all-star who could light up from anywhere and helped propel the team to a three year playoff run for the first time since the Hayes/Unseld days and the first 2nd round series since the early 80s. Forget about aging veterans, injuries waiting to happen, no bench, etc. You could really enjoy the now if you suspended disbelief and wore rose colored goggles to view the long term. It's all a matter of perspective. I highly recommend rose colored goggles.

[leswizards]

The combined moves both good and bad, improved med staff, etc. has added up to 7 more wins than last year so far with 13 games to go. Lets say they end up at 14 games better then last year. That 48% more wins.

The team was supposed to be .500 last season. Ted gave them a break because of injuries. Then, they were supposed to be .500 with Wall. They were a game under .500. Ted gave them a break because he deemed them to be close enough. Now, you are giving them a break (using the poor overall record due to the injuries from last season) because you want to make EG look better than he is. Their record is irrelevant. EG is an awful GM who has blown numerous chances to help this team become contenders.

His fingerprints on this team are all veterans who are not bargains, and very high draft picks that were no brainers, and first round picks who have not lived up to expectations. The time frame is irrelevant. It is time for EG to go.

[dckingsfan]

hands does make a good point though... if you started as a fan last year - you would really like some of the moves that EG has made. And you would like that the Wizards were in the playoffs.

His analogy of stocks stand. If you were picking the stock last year to this year - you would have had a pretty good return.

Over the last 5 - not so much.

[TGW]

I find it funny that hands has that outlook on Grunfeld's performance the past 2 seasons, but doesn't extend the same courtesy to Whitman and his job performance. Sounds hypocritical.

[LyricalRico]

If some of you can find nothing positive to say about Ernie Grunfeld and his management of the Wizards, at least be fair and give credit where it is due. Drew Gooden, averaging 17 points and 8.5 rebounds the past 4 games. Outstanding acquisition. His production far outweighs his contract value.

Do you really think Ernie would have signed Gooden if Nene didn't get hurt? Gooden just happened to have been working out in the Verizon Center and in the area when Nene went down. Ernie just picked the most convenient vet available.

That's an interesting way of framing things.

Any team in the league could have made a move to sign Gooden. None did. Not for more then half the season. EG did sign him. It was a good signing. And Gooden can be resigned for vet min next year while MIL pays his 6.8M contract. We can do a Dray on MIL. That makes the move a B+ to A+

The Gooden signing was a good move. If he resigns its a great move. EG get credit for this.

Call the sinkers what they are. Call the good moves what they are.

+1

[LyricalRico]

hands does make a good point though... if you started as a fan last year - you would really like some of the moves that EG has made. And you would like that the Wizards were in the playoffs.

His analogy of stocks stand. If you were picking the stock last year to this year - you would have had a pretty good return.

Over the last 5 - not so much.

Another +1

[hands11]

EG has done some good things as the GM - we are just objectively grading his entire body of work rather than individual moves.

I can play cards and be really happy about that hand I won - even if I lost $10K for the entire game. Kind of the same with EG.

Thats a fair way to divide things. But when talking about overall vs individual moves you also have to define different time frames if you want to have a relevant conversation. Its hard to have that conversation here because people focus on different time frames as relevant. Some feel the time frame is this year over last. Some feel its since Ted took over. Some think its since he was the Wizards GM. Some feel its his entire GM work. A case can be made for each of those as viable but some look at them separately, in context and weighted differently. The longer the time frame, the more variables there are.

Clearly some fans, specially new ones, look at this year over last or this year over two years or this year over since Ted as the more relevant conversation to have. For those who have prebaked everything is failure, the progress is a sell out dead end so they don't see progress as progress. Those people tend to find something bad in every move and always frame things and add speculation to make it that way. Or they change the conversation to something longer term that was bad that supports their negative take things. For those that understand the offseason is a huge blank slate, they see progress or progress toward something that can keep getting better so they are enjoying the good moves and more wins. Gooden was a good move so you find some fans of the Wizards enjoying things getting better year over year.

That's what goes on here.

Year over year ?
The combined moves both good and bad, improved med staff, etc. has added up to 7 more wins than last year so far with 13 games to go. Lets say they end up at 14 games better then last year. That 48% more wins.

No way you can ignore the validity of some fans seeing that as progress. Now you can change the time frame to draw the conversation into something negative, but evaluating things on shorter time frames is also relevant. It why people looking at stock look at different windows as well.

Not knowing what the offseason brings, it perfectly valid for fans to look at this data as a positive.

When Gilbert Arenas was the center piece of the franchise mini-renaissance, a lot of fans got stuck in comparing him to pass first PGs and more vocal leaders, and comparing the high octane offense-oriented team to a more balanced team with aggressive team defense and tough interior muscle.

But the team had an electric all-star who could light up from anywhere and helped propel the team to a three year playoff run for the first time since the Hayes/Unseld days and the first 2nd round series since the early 80s. Forget about aging veterans, injuries waiting to happen, no bench, etc. You could really enjoy the now if you suspended disbelief and wore rose colored goggles to view the long term. It's all a matter of perspective. I highly recommend rose colored goggles.

Now thats a debate that you can frame and evaluate. My take on that rebuild. I saw the team getting better the year before they made the playoff even though it was only a 25 win season, and enjoyed the first appearance. After that, I started to sour on Gil and EJ. I saw Gil increasingly not living up to being the leader he needed to be and I saw EJ as a coattail riding assistant looking to get paid by assembling as many wins as possible at all cost (max mins for Gil and later CB and AJ ) so he could land another contract which he did. EJ did well for himself. Not so much for us. I also saw a dysfunctional franchise with an owner that hand picked that HC before hiring the GM. I saw a GM that wanted to help the team get a better HC (Tibbs) but that didn't have the control to get it done.

I also saw a team that was not built to defend which to me is a flawed design. That had a PG that wasn't in the mold of the type of PG I think works best which is a PG that is a pass oriented run the offense PG first that can also score. That wasn't Gil. A saw a PF that couldn't defend at all which is an other thing I hate. I saw that team is seriously flawed. Mainly based on Gil and EJ and AJ. And the owner. I saw serious fools Gold while in the middle of fans going full in kookaid about Gil and where the team could go with him.

I think it was some time last year I started posting that this current core group with Wall will be better then the Gil teams. I think they are already there and Wall is already a better PG then Gil was in his 3rd years. Gil played more mins and scored more, Wall is a better complete PG and leader. You can build a contender with Wall as your PG. That was never going to happen with Gil.

Wall, Beal, TA, Webster, Nene, Gortat, Gooden, A Miller, AH, Booker, Otto, Temple, Kevin S

vs what.

Gil, Hughes, Jefferies, AJ, Haywood, Hayes, Ruffin, Dixon, Etan, Kwame, S Blake 45 win 2nd round team ?
Gil, AD, CB, AJ, Haywood, Jefferies, Etan Ruffin, Hayes ?

I'll take this team to beat either of those teams and I will take this rebuild and owner over that last one. Which would you take ?

[hands11]

I have to give Ernie credit. He has cleaned up some messes. Wait...who made those messes?

I have no problem with a GM cleaning up their own poop. Its actually a good thing. What I think we all prefer is that they poop less but lets be honest..... every GM lays some turds. The better ones know when and how to clean them up and do so without walking away with stinky fingers.

Ves was a bad pick at #6. Could he have worked out better with the right coach on a team that committed minutes to him like they have Beal. Would it have worked better if Wall stayed healthy. Most likely yes. Ves was drafted as a transition player to run with Wall. Could he have stuck around for vet min next year under a new coach that could make use of him better. I would say probably.

Was cleaning up the Ves and Maynor turds for A Miller and an open roster spot that turned into The Golden Boy Gooden who can get signed for vet min next year a good/great move. Its looking that way.

So the #6 pick in a top weak draft.. Bismack Biyombo went 7th.. a FA BAE and a 2nd pick worth 32 year old Gooden who is ballin his mind out and the Iron Man Professor Miller who can teach Wall to post up. Its not looking terrible right now. Not ideal but no longer bust worthy in total.

No, EG cleaned up his turd. You want a GM to do that.

[hands11]

If some of you can find nothing positive to say about Ernie Grunfeld and his management of the Wizards, at least be fair and give credit where it is due. Drew Gooden, averaging 17 points and 8.5 rebounds the past 4 games. Outstanding acquisition. His production far outweighs his contract value.

So? He's not the main piece that will bring this team a ring in the near future. You are gonna have to big up yourselves better than that of Drew Gooden. He's no Anthony Davis. Instead of trying to convince us of these current moves, what is the plan for the future? Keep this roster together and ride the waves of lukewarm playoff appearances? That's only gonna be good enough for a few seasons. Reality is you are gonna have to bring in or draft somebody that is better than Wall. Wall's not gonna carry this team by himself and the talent around him ain't enough. And you guys in management deep down know it too.

No one knows the answer to those questions. Pretending the do is nonsense.

There are big moves to make this off season. GM, HC and players. All you know is what they have right now with is a playoff appearance with a weak HC. Its a mixed bag to get excited about. But I'm happy for Wall and Beal since they will get their first playoff experience. Something I think is vital to their development. And Wall got his first AS appearance. And won the dunk contest. And is about to hit his 100s 3 point shot for the year very shorty.

Its been a good year for Wall and thats good for the franchise moving forward since he is signed as a core piece and team leader. That's what we know.

[hands11]

The combined moves both good and bad, improved med staff, etc. has added up to 7 more wins than last year so far with 13 games to go. Lets say they end up at 14 games better then last year. That 48% more wins.

The team was supposed to be .500 last season. Ted gave them a break because of injuries. Then, they were supposed to be .500 with Wall. They were a game under .500. Ted gave them a break because he deemed them to be close enough. Now, you are giving them a break (using the poor overall record due to the injuries from last season) because you want to make EG look better than he is. Their record is irrelevant. EG is an awful GM who has blown numerous chances to help this team become contenders.

His fingerprints on this team are all veterans who are not bargains, and very high draft picks that were no brainers, and first round picks who have not lived up to expectations. The time frame is irrelevant. It is time for EG to go.

Another interesting way of framing things. I don't recall. Where you posting along with me last year that things were better then they looked or were you slamming them because the record is the record and thats all that counts. The only thing that is is what is. Because twisting it both ways doesn't work. They either were good last year and would have done well over the year before short of a freak Wall injury or they just stunk and they are a lot better this year.

My take is they were better last year but the Wall injury crushed them and Wall didn't get to develop like he could because he missed so much time. But even given that, we saw some progress from him once he did play. Remember, Wall had a great summer that year and was primed to take that into the season. They should have been near .500 and we should have gotten a more seasoned Wall to start this year. That being the case, they would have added to the wins this year. And with that better record and Wall, they probably could have attracted a better PG then Maynor to back up Wall. Maybe Collison would have come here. They would have made the playoffs last year and gotten that exposure. Wall would have gotten his first experience and so would Beal.. in his first year in the league.

Its hard to say how them being near or at .500 would have effected the offseason. Its hard to unravel these things. Its like Back to the Future stuff. But even without factoring in that stuff, this would be their second go at things. Would Randy be a better coach having lost in the first round of the playoff last year. Would he have learned something. Who knows. But this 2nd year of over .500 would/will likely show 4 or so games improvement over that .500 ish team last year.

So pick one. Two years of playoffs and improving record with a pack booth of load fans this year, or a huge leap between last year and this year and a first playoff appearance.

Pick a methodology. Then people here can have an honest debate with you.

It can't be that the only thing that is is what is now but then when now looks good you change the time frame.

[montestewart]

Wall, Beal, TA, Webster, Nene, Gortat, Gooden, A Miller, AH, Booker, Otto, Temple, Kevin S

vs what.

Gil, Hughes, Jefferies, AJ, Haywood, Hayes, Ruffin, Dixon, Etan, Kwame, S Blake 45 win 2nd round team ?
Gil, AD, CB, AJ, Haywood, Jefferies, Etan Ruffin, Hayes ?

I'll take this team to beat either of those teams and I will take this rebuild and owner over that last one. Which would you take ?

Pretty sure I'd take 04-05 Wizards over this team. I'll call coach/GM/owner about even.

As a nod to your eternal optimism, I'm sure I can't say anything with absolute finality about the current team. I sure hope its ceiling is higher.