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Tracking Former Wizards 4.0

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Re: Tracking Former Wizards 4.0 

Post#281 » by payitforward » Mon Jul 29, 2024 1:13 am

montestewart wrote:
AFM wrote:Completely unacceptable and disgusting comments. Wow. Just wow.

Wes Unseld never would’ve said anything so ignorant, and Arenas once again reminds me why he never displaced Unseld as my favorite franchise player. What an undignified look for him and the franchise. I hope he takes walking that **** back seriously. That team lost by one point. They deserve a lot of respect, not bigotry.

The thing is... in Wes's day there wasn't a tech apparatus that captures every stupid thing anyone happens to say. Gilbert apologized for his thoughtless remark; suffices for me.
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Re: Tracking Former Wizards 4.0 

Post#282 » by payitforward » Mon Jul 29, 2024 1:24 am

There's nothing to "agree to disagree" about! Of course Boston could have signed Porzingis outright -- why not?
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Re: Tracking Former Wizards 4.0 

Post#283 » by Benjammin » Mon Jul 29, 2024 1:55 am

I feel sorry that the league has moved on from the skillset Tyus brings, but I'm very happy with the PG situation now.

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Re: Tracking Former Wizards 4.0 

Post#284 » by nate33 » Mon Jul 29, 2024 3:48 am

payitforward wrote:There's nothing to "agree to disagree" about! Of course Boston could have signed Porzingis outright -- why not?

Boston didn’t have cap room to sign Porzingis. The only way to acquire him was to work out a trade with Washington.

You are wrong about Washington having no leverage. They had substantial leverage because their consent was necessary to facilitate a trade to Boston. Porzingis’ threat to opt out was a fairly empty threat. If he opted out, he could only go to a team with cap room. IIRC, the only team with cap room was Detroit. There may have been one or two others, but certainly not any team with championship aspirations.
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Re: Tracking Former Wizards 4.0 

Post#285 » by closg00 » Mon Jul 29, 2024 12:32 pm

nate33 wrote:
payitforward wrote:There's nothing to "agree to disagree" about! Of course Boston could have signed Porzingis outright -- why not?

Boston didn’t have cap room to sign Porzingis. The only way to acquire him was to work out a trade with Washington.

You are wrong about Washington having no leverage. They had substantial leverage because their consent was necessary to facilitate a trade to Boston. Porzingis’ threat to opt out was a fairly empty threat. If he opted out, he could only go to a team with cap room. IIRC, the only team with cap room was Detroit. There may have been one or two others, but certainly not any team with championship aspirations.


Please put this on a bronze plaque and pin it somewhere, Washington treated this like they were sending their kid to camp while Boston was doing what Boston does, win trades, embarrassingly bad trade for Washington.
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Re: Tracking Former Wizards 4.0 

Post#286 » by montestewart » Mon Jul 29, 2024 1:56 pm

payitforward wrote:
montestewart wrote:
AFM wrote:Completely unacceptable and disgusting comments. Wow. Just wow.

Wes Unseld never would’ve said anything so ignorant, and Arenas once again reminds me why he never displaced Unseld as my favorite franchise player. What an undignified look for him and the franchise. I hope he takes walking that **** back seriously. That team lost by one point. They deserve a lot of respect, not bigotry.

The thing is... in Wes's day there wasn't a tech apparatus that captures every stupid thing anyone happens to say. Gilbert apologized for his thoughtless remark; suffices for me.

You don’t know much about Unseld.
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Re: Tracking Former Wizards 4.0 

Post#287 » by payitforward » Mon Jul 29, 2024 2:21 pm

montestewart wrote:
payitforward wrote:
montestewart wrote:Wes Unseld never would’ve said anything so ignorant, and Arenas once again reminds me why he never displaced Unseld as my favorite franchise player. What an undignified look for him and the franchise. I hope he takes walking that **** back seriously. That team lost by one point. They deserve a lot of respect, not bigotry.

The thing is... in Wes's day there wasn't a tech apparatus that captures every stupid thing anyone happens to say. Gilbert apologized for his thoughtless remark; suffices for me.

You don’t know much about Unseld.

I didn't write anything about him. Didn't mean to suggest anything at all about him.
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Re: Tracking Former Wizards 4.0 

Post#288 » by montestewart » Mon Jul 29, 2024 2:38 pm

payitforward wrote:
montestewart wrote:
payitforward wrote:The thing is... in Wes's day there wasn't a tech apparatus that captures every stupid thing anyone happens to say. Gilbert apologized for his thoughtless remark; suffices for me.

You don’t know much about Unseld.

I didn't write anything about him. Didn't mean to suggest anything at all about him.

Fair enough, my mistake. To me it's taking the good with the bad with Arenas, and on his podcast he sometimes comes across as a baiting bully, which can produce entertainment but can also produce Gungate. Not that the two are mutually exclusive.
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Re: Tracking Former Wizards 4.0 

Post#289 » by payitforward » Mon Jul 29, 2024 3:00 pm

nate33 wrote:
payitforward wrote:There's nothing to "agree to disagree" about! Of course Boston could have signed Porzingis outright -- why not?

Boston didn’t have cap room to sign Porzingis. The only way to acquire him was to work out a trade with Washington.

You are wrong about Washington having no leverage. They had substantial leverage because their consent was necessary to facilitate a trade to Boston. Porzingis’ threat to opt out was a fairly empty threat. If he opted out, he could only go to a team with cap room. IIRC, the only team with cap room was Detroit. There may have been one or two others, but certainly not any team with championship aspirations.

Thanks, nate -- as you point out, we had a choice I didn't consider: we might have played hard ball with Porzingis, & he wouldn't have been able to opt out. Instead, he would have remained a Washington Wizard for one more year & then become an unrestricted free agent.

My mistake. Except, it's not Porzingis w/ whom we had to play hard ball, is it? It's Boston.

So now let's look again. & in doing so I'm going to assume that you have some business experience to draw on.

Let's consider as follows Tell me what you would have done, nate:

You've just come in as a FO team. You're looking at a project where you have to tear down the entire edifice, to the studs, & rebuild. KP wants out. Your options are:

a) play hardball, keep KP for another year (as a disgruntled player, to be sure -- or do you think not?), & then let him walk for nothing?

b) work out a deal where KP leaves & you get Tyus Jones?

c) insist that Tyus isn't enough, & they'll just have to come up with more?

Your business experience, I have no doubt, will cause you to recognize that c is a completely empty option.

Why? Because you're simply not going to choose a, & the guy on the other side of the table is perfectly aware of the fact. The potential negative effects of a are immense & entirely incalculable. & it has zero positive effect.

Only a fool would choose a -- or, of course, someone posting on a message board who will experience no consequence of what he writes & therefore has no particular reason to think it through.

So, what do you do/ Smart person that you are, you start with c, pro forma -- "what's the best you can do?" -- & when they come back with b, you take the deal.

Or, to put it another way, you have zero leverage. You're not going to keep KP around, that's for sure! Do I really have to lay out the many reasons you'd never do that?

&, so, now that we've taken the toy train all the way around the circular track, we are back to what I said in the first place. We had no leverage. We took what we could get.
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Re: Tracking Former Wizards 4.0 

Post#290 » by nate33 » Mon Jul 29, 2024 10:51 pm

payitforward wrote:a) play hardball, keep KP for another year (as a disgruntled player, to be sure -- or do you think not?), & then let him walk for nothing?

b) work out a deal where KP leaves & you get Tyus Jones?

c) insist that Tyus isn't enough, & they'll just have to come up with more?

You insist on more coming back from Boston in the trade. If they refuse, then you keep a disgruntled Porzingis and shop him throughout the following season. Porzingis, on an expiring contract, would be a good soldier and play hard because he’d want to get paid on his next contract.
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Re: Tracking Former Wizards 4.0 

Post#291 » by DCZards » Tue Jul 30, 2024 4:57 am

nate33 wrote:
payitforward wrote:a) play hardball, keep KP for another year (as a disgruntled player, to be sure -- or do you think not?), & then let him walk for nothing?

b) work out a deal where KP leaves & you get Tyus Jones?

c) insist that Tyus isn't enough, & they'll just have to come up with more?

You insist on more coming back from Boston in the trade. If they refuse, then you keep a disgruntled Porzingis and shop him throughout the following season. Porzingis, on an expiring contract, would be a good soldier and play hard because he’d want to get paid on his next contract.

Keeping a “disgruntled” player is never a good idea when you’re a new regime trying to establish a new and different culture.
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Re: Tracking Former Wizards 4.0 

Post#292 » by penbeast0 » Tue Jul 30, 2024 2:02 pm

I didn't get any impression that Porzingis was disgruntled the way I did when he was in Dallas. I got that he appreciated Washington rehabbing his value and that he wanted to be on a winning team but I could see him waiting it out to be traded at the deadline or even playing out the year and becoming a UFA.

If he had been a UFA already or was pulling a stunt like Simmons where he was refusing to play for the team at all and it was causing problems, then we would have the zero leverage that you are talking about. But we were not in that situation yet.
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Re: Tracking Former Wizards 4.0 

Post#293 » by Kanyewest » Tue Jul 30, 2024 2:07 pm

penbeast0 wrote:I didn't get any impression that Porzingis was disgruntled the way I did when he was in Dallas. I got that he appreciated Washington rehabbing his value and that he wanted to be on a winning team but I could see him waiting it out to be traded at the deadline or even playing out the year and becoming a UFA.

If he had been a UFA already or was pulling a stunt like Simmons where he was refusing to play for the team at all and it was causing problems, then we would have the zero leverage that you are talking about. But we were not in that situation yet.


KP strikes as the guy who would play nice as long as Washington agreed that they would do the best to find a new home for him. I think it was a case where the ne new regime (and apparently the rest of the league) undervalued what KP was.
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Re: Tracking Former Wizards 4.0 

Post#294 » by montestewart » Tue Jul 30, 2024 2:43 pm

Kanyewest wrote:
penbeast0 wrote:I didn't get any impression that Porzingis was disgruntled the way I did when he was in Dallas. I got that he appreciated Washington rehabbing his value and that he wanted to be on a winning team but I could see him waiting it out to be traded at the deadline or even playing out the year and becoming a UFA.

If he had been a UFA already or was pulling a stunt like Simmons where he was refusing to play for the team at all and it was causing problems, then we would have the zero leverage that you are talking about. But we were not in that situation yet.


KP strikes as the guy who would play nice as long as Washington agreed that they would do the best to find a new home for him. I think it was a case where the ne new regime (and apparently the rest of the league) undervalued what KP was.

Agree that they might have gotten a better deal, and don't want the new front office to get a reputation as suckers (as I think EG had), but they also might get a reputation of being good to players, and I'm happy that apparently good guy Porzingis went straight to a champion.
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Re: Tracking Former Wizards 4.0 

Post#295 » by DCZards » Tue Jul 30, 2024 3:33 pm

montestewart wrote:Agree that they might have gotten a better deal, and don't want the new front office to get a reputation as suckers (as I think EG had), but they also might get a reputation of being good to players, and I'm happy that apparently good guy Porzingis went straight to a champion.

I don’t doubt that KP would have likely been a good soldier if they had not traded him. OTOH, I’m sure he didn’t want to be on a rebuilding team and when the Celts deal came up the Zards FO could have hung on for a better deal but they did KP and his agent a solid by working out a deal.

That could indeed earn the FO a good rep with agents and benefit them in the future.
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Re: Tracking Former Wizards 4.0 

Post#296 » by doclinkin » Tue Jul 30, 2024 4:38 pm

penbeast0 wrote:I didn't get any impression that Porzingis was disgruntled the way I did when he was in Dallas. I got that he appreciated Washington rehabbing his value and that he wanted to be on a winning team but I could see him waiting it out to be traded at the deadline or even playing out the year and becoming a UFA.


Porzingis had a player option. He and his agent made clear he was going to opt out of the deal and become an UFA. He stated he wanted to play for a contender so was open to a sign and trade and would opt in if so. But otherwise he was going to opt out and shop around for a team. We had no ability to retain him beyond his willingness to opt in. Given the timing of free agency that year we literally made the deal in the last hour before he was going to have to declare to opt out. And that only got done after a deal fell through with the Clippers for Brogdon where we would have gotten a package of picks.

We could have played hardball, but we probably would have lost Porzingis for nothing since it was evident he was willing to risk playing for less money to go to a contender. He was willing to test the market. We can say only Detroit would have had the money, but at the point where he opted out that money was his to lose, zero chance he would later circle back to us to play for less money than he opted out from AND for a losing team. Made sense to retain positive player relations and any kind of return on the investment.

Given that the front office was on the job for about a week at that point, I think they did okay in getting anything for Porzingis. I think they hoped to retain Tyus on a sign and trade, but the Brodgon + Bub deal, and the 15 win season with Tyus + Poole, meant that was unlikely.

Spilt milk. So far after all the trades we ended up with one year of Tyus plus the 35th pick in 2023 which we traded for the Bulls' 26 + 27 2nd round picks. We ended up trading the 2027 pick (31-50 protected) to New Orleans in the Valanciunas trade.

So effectively we traded Porzingis for Valanciunas + the Bulls' 2026 unprotected round 2 pick. Which I'm pretty much okay with.
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Re: Tracking Former Wizards 4.0 

Post#297 » by Ackohen » Tue Jul 30, 2024 5:05 pm

A very suspensful France VS Japan game right now. Just entered OT.
Hachimura is as usual (24 points), Coulibaly with only 2 minutes in game..
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Re: Tracking Former Wizards 4.0 

Post#298 » by nate33 » Tue Jul 30, 2024 5:46 pm

DCZards wrote:
montestewart wrote:Agree that they might have gotten a better deal, and don't want the new front office to get a reputation as suckers (as I think EG had), but they also might get a reputation of being good to players, and I'm happy that apparently good guy Porzingis went straight to a champion.

I don’t doubt that KP would have likely been a good soldier if they had not traded him. OTOH, I’m sure he didn’t want to be on a rebuilding team and when the Celts deal came up the Zards FO could have hung on for a better deal but they did KP and his agent a solid by working out a deal.

That could indeed earn the FO a good rep with agents and benefit them in the future.

That’s just the point. Earning a “good reputation” never actually pays off. It’s better to be ruthless and earn a reputation as not being a pushover.

The bottom line is Porzingis on an expiring contract would have been much more valuable than Tyus on an expiring contract. It was foolish to make that trade.
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Re: Tracking Former Wizards 4.0 

Post#299 » by DCZards » Tue Jul 30, 2024 8:45 pm

nate33 wrote:
DCZards wrote:
montestewart wrote:Agree that they might have gotten a better deal, and don't want the new front office to get a reputation as suckers (as I think EG had), but they also might get a reputation of being good to players, and I'm happy that apparently good guy Porzingis went straight to a champion.

I don’t doubt that KP would have likely been a good soldier if they had not traded him. OTOH, I’m sure he didn’t want to be on a rebuilding team and when the Celts deal came up the Zards FO could have hung on for a better deal but they did KP and his agent a solid by working out a deal.

That could indeed earn the FO a good rep with agents and benefit them in the future.

That’s just the point. Earning a “good reputation” never actually pays off. It’s better to be ruthless and earn a reputation as not being a pushover.

You may be right. But it could also be true that good relations with players and/or agents has it benefits for a FO.

I believe there’s a middle ground between being a “pushover” and being “ruthless.”
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Re: Tracking Former Wizards 4.0 

Post#300 » by payitforward » Tue Jul 30, 2024 10:00 pm

nate33 wrote:
payitforward wrote:a) play hardball, keep KP for another year (as a disgruntled player, to be sure -- or do you think not?), & then let him walk for nothing?

b) work out a deal where KP leaves & you get Tyus Jones?

c) insist that Tyus isn't enough, & they'll just have to come up with more?

You insist on more coming back from Boston in the trade. If they refuse, then you keep a disgruntled Porzingis and shop him throughout the following season. Porzingis, on an expiring contract, would be a good soldier and play hard because he’d want to get paid on his next contract.

Maybe... but TBH, as I recall the situation, word at the time was that unless we did that deal & traded him to Boston, KP was planning to opt out & become an unrestricted free agent.

Would he? How would I know? But that was certainly my understanding of the situation at the time. You may have had a different & better information source, or maybe it was an idle threat, or maybe I misunderstood what I read, But that was certainly my uderstanding of the situation at the time.

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