Wiz trade Shard and 2nd rounder for Okafor and Ariza-Part II

[montestewart]

14-35
20-46
23-59
26-56
19-63

Turn the page, TGW. Time to live in the here and now. Hell, five years ago I had a full head of hair.

I still have a full head of hair, but for some reason it turned completely gray over the last five seasons. I can't understand it.

[MDStar]

What has EG done to earn the benefit of our doubt?

And sorry, but going all-in on overpaid veterans to make us a .500 ballclub is not going to cut it.

I'm not defending EG, as I think he's made a ton of mistakes over the years but I'm really starting to think that he actually does deserve some credit and some benefit of the doubt.

Hear me out for a second:

Take the team we have now and presumably for next year as well. The major players are Wall, Beal, Okafor, Nene, Webster and Ariza. With a young, inexperienced bench, consisting of Seraphin, Vesely, Booker, Crawford and Price. This team, for a month now has proved to be +500 team and one of the top defensive squads in the game. Of course, the argument is, that team, at it's best, is mid tier playoff team.

Now ask yourself this, if in an alternate universe, we had D. Rose (Healthy version) instead of Wall. Would that team be a legitimate playoff contender?

I believe that it would. This league is a superstar driven league, one where if you take Durant off OKC and replace him with Paul George, they drop from the top spot, to a mid-tier team. Whether we like it or not, Wall is supposed to be our superstar. This team/roster was designed for him to become an all-star this year. And for whatever reason, John is just good. He's not great. And that my friends is not on EG. If Wall was our superstar, this team would be good enough to compete, with additional potential to become even better as we are still a relative young team and players like Booker, Seraphin, Beal and Vesely, have all yet to become the players that they should.

Again, i'm not saying EG should continue to be our GM at all but if your #1 pick is a superstar (as he should be) and you add him to a top defensive team, then DC would have a team to be proud of and Ernie would deserve a bit of credit for.

I guess what I'm saying is, I actually like how the team is constructed but if our main building block doesn't become a superstar, (I'm confident that he will be), then their is only so much any roster can do, as the foundation would be shaky. And no matter if we like it or not, Wall is our foundation, we have to ride with him until he proves that he is not fit to be built around.

[Dat2U]

14-35
20-46
23-59
26-56
19-63

Turn the page, TGW. Time to live in the here and now. Hell, five years ago I had a full head of hair.

I still have a full head of hair, but for some reason it turned completely gray over the last five seasons. I can't understand it.

Well over the last 5 seasons I lost most of my hair so I now have to rock a baldy. Thanks Wizards...

[Dat2U]

I'm not defending EG, as I think he's made a ton of mistakes over the years but I'm really starting to think that he actually does deserve some credit and some benefit of the doubt.

Hear me out for a second:

Take the team we have now and presumably for next year as well. The major players are Wall, Beal, Okafor, Nene, Webster and Ariza. With a young, inexperienced bench, consisting of Seraphin, Vesely, Booker, Crawford and Price. This team, for a month now has proved to be +500 team and one of the top defensive squads in the game. Of course, the argument is, that team, at it's best, is mid tier playoff team.

Now ask yourself this, if in an alternate universe, we had D. Rose (Healthy version) instead of Wall. Would that team be a legitimate playoff contender?

Ask yourself this. How many games have the Bulls won this year without D. Rose?

Now ask yourself how many games the Wizards have won this year without Wall? Don't worry, you'll be able to count the number on one hand.

I believe that it would. This league is a superstar driven league, one where if you take Durant off OKC and replace him with Paul George, they drop from the top spot, to a mid-tier team. Whether we like it or not, Wall is supposed to be our superstar. This team/roster was designed for him to become an all-star this year. And for whatever reason, John is just good. He's not great. And that my friends is not on EG. If Wall was our superstar, this team would be good enough to compete, with additional potential to become even better as we are still a relative young team and players like Booker, Seraphin, Beal and Vesely, have all yet to become the players that they should.

Again, i'm not saying EG should continue to be our GM at all but if your #1 pick is a superstar (as he should be) and you add him to a top defensive team, then DC would have a team to be proud of and Ernie would deserve a bit of credit for.

I guess what I'm saying is, I actually like how the team is constructed but if our main building block doesn't become a superstar, (I'm confident that he will be), then their is only so much any roster can do, as the foundation would be shaky. And no matter if we like it or not, Wall is our foundation, we have to ride with him until he proves that he is not fit to be built around.

Um, how exactly is this team designed or constructed for Wall to become an all-star? I'd love to hear this.

[DCZards]

When comparing the records of the non-Wall Wizards vs. non-Rose Bulls, keep in mind that Chicago opened the season with 3 starters (Noah, Deng, Boozer) who've been part of their starting core for several years. That's great continuity.

Not a single player in the Wizards starting lineup on opening day was even on the roster last season. Big difference.

Oh, and the Zards were without Nene, as well as Wall.

[tontoz]

They did have several of EGs recent draft picks available who have been completely unproductive. Meanwhile other teams are finding value from the mid-1st, 2nd round or even undrafted free agents (isiah). The fact that this team was so helpless without Wall is an indictment of EGs repeated mistakes.

[montestewart]

When comparing the records of the non-Wall Wizards vs. non-Rose Bulls, keep in mind that Chicago opened the season with 3 starters (Noah, Deng, Boozer) who've been part of their starting core for several years. That's great continuity.

Not a single player in the Wizards starting lineup on opening day was even on the roster last season. Big difference.

Oh, and the Zards were without Nene, as well as Wall.

So EG was right all along. This team is loaded with talent. Continuity is the key to improving the record. Sometimes the best move to improve your team is no move to improve your team. I'll bet continuity includes no changes in the front office.

[MDStar]

Dat,

I believe you missed my point. Yes, the team is not constructed to be able to withstand any type of injury and would be just as bad if we had Rose and he was hurt.

That's not my point. My question was simple:

With Wall, most would agree that we are a slightly above average team, that is great on defense but struggles to score, that over the course of a healthy season would end up somewhere around 41-45 wins at the end of the year. If a healthy D. Rose (who is a superstar) was put in place of Wall, what would the outlook of the team then be?

So yes, not drafting better is squarely on EG's shoulders, no disagreement there. All I am saying is that if Wall took the leap that he was suppose to, then the current and future outlook of this team, would not be what it is.

And another thing, while i also believe that if we never did the OkaRiza trade and had the off season play out as many hoped it would; Trading Beal for Harden, signing & trade for Anderson, that we would probably have a 50+ win team. However what I am not convinced of is if that 50 win team, is capable of winning a championship. I don't see the defense. They would score like crazy (Wall, Harden, Webster, Anderson, Nene) but I don't know if they would/could stop anyone.

[nate33]

^
The team played real good defense last year after the Nene trade.

[sfam]

When comparing the records of the non-Wall Wizards vs. non-Rose Bulls, keep in mind that Chicago opened the season with 3 starters (Noah, Deng, Boozer) who've been part of their starting core for several years. That's great continuity.

Not a single player in the Wizards starting lineup on opening day was even on the roster last season. Big difference.

Oh, and the Zards were without Nene, as well as Wall.

So EG was right all along. This team is loaded with talent. Continuity is the key to improving the record. Sometimes the best move to improve your team is no move to improve your team. I'll bet continuity includes no changes in the front office.

I am a BIG believer in continuity. Just having the same team together for a few years, with the same offensive and defensive philosophy will do wonders for us. Until then, you really can't get productive role players with any degree of confidence, because you don't know the role you need to fill.

Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE it if EG were gone at the end of this season, but I really wouldn't want the new GM to blow up the team. At this point, I want Randy Wittman back as well.

[montestewart]

Dat,

I believe you missed my point. Yes, the team is not constructed to be able to withstand any type of injury and would be just as bad if we had Rose and he was hurt.

That's not my point. My question was simple:

With Wall, most would agree that we are a slightly above average team, that is great on defense but struggles to score, that over the course of a healthy season would end up somewhere around 41-45 wins at the end of the year. If a healthy D. Rose (who is a superstar) was put in place of Wall, what would the outlook of the team then be?

So yes, not drafting better is squarely on EG's shoulders, no disagreement there. All I am saying is that if Wall took the leap that he was suppose to, then the current and future outlook of this team, would not be what it is.

And another thing, while i also believe that if we never did the OkaRiza trade and had the off season play out as many hoped it would; Trading Beal for Harden, signing & trade for Anderson, that we would probably have a 50+ win team. However what I am not convinced of is if that 50 win team, is capable of winning a championship. I don't see the defense. They would score like crazy (Wall, Harden, Webster, Anderson, Nene) but I don't know if they would/could stop anyone.

I sort of see what you're saying, although I'm still not sure exactly what concrete point there is. Regardless, I'm not ready to judge the team based solely on the recent 10-7 record. The team is all together and relatively healthy for now, and they've had a good run. I'll believe that 10-7 team is who they are if they continue playing that way through the rest of the season. Maybe they just caught the league off guard. Regardless, it seems 36-45 wins was about what people were predicting preseason before it became obvious that injuries to Wall, Nene and others would undermine that prediction. Some (myself included) thought the low end of that range was easily obtainable even prior to the Okariza trade.

Such speculation about what the team would be if they were all healthy and if John Wall was a Rose-level superstar doesn't alter my view about EG. He really had no good reason to believe Wall would be making a leap to superstar this season, so why would he start building a team (if you can call it building) around a superstar you don't yet have. And he shouldn't get credit for the good play of the team when Nene's healthy without losing credit for the poor play of the team when Nene is injured. Nene's injury issues did not come out of left field. EG took a risk.

[montestewart]

sfam, I'm not against continuity per se, but not as a substitute for actively seeking upgrades in talent (including considering trades involving core players) for the purpose of becoming a contender. I think this team is at least one or two important pieces away from being a contender, and barring the development of Wall to superstar level, Beal to All-Star level, one of the other young players to superior starter level, and a home run with this year's (hopefully) very high draft pick, it's hard for me to see EG getting it done.

[Nivek]

Teams don't become good because of continuity. They gain continuity because they become good. There's no reason to break up a good team. Bad teams change players because the reason a team is bad is because the players aren't good. Once you get good players, you keep them together while still trying to add more good players.

This is one of the hazards of the Wizards strategy of rebuilding with 30-year old big men. If this team becomes good, it'll likely have a smaller window for success because key components are likely to start becoming less effective as they age.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

So EG was right all along. This team is loaded with talent. Continuity is the key to improving the record. Sometimes the best move to improve your team is no move to improve your team. I'll bet continuity includes no changes in the front office.

I am a BIG believer in continuity. Just having the same team together for a few years, with the same offensive and defensive philosophy will do wonders for us. Until then, you really can't get productive role players with any degree of confidence, because you don't know the role you need to fill.

Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE it if EG were gone at the end of this season, but I really wouldn't want the new GM to blow up the team. At this point, I want Randy Wittman back as well.

Honestly, I don't care right now. Bring Randy back because the team is kicking ass right now.

Bring EG back because the team is kicking ass right now.

Don't change too much. Pray the wheels don't fall off Nene.

Next season is when a lot of decisions need to be made. I would rather have Troy Weaver as GM. If Randy should falter, I want Dave Joerger as coach. However, I am the type who feels talent wins in this league. The Wizards had Gilbert Arenas. If he had played with this defensive cast of players, the Wizards would have advanced past Cleveland at least once or twice. What the Washington needs now is one star players.

Beal is getting better. The team is playing better. They've stuck together through a 4-28 start. Keep them together and they will probably finish between 30-52 and 35-47. Next season, they can expect to win 50+ games, and they might add a player like Porter or Smart to an already good team.

I'm looking forward and forgetting about the age of the F/C combination.

[TheBigThree]

I still don't think I like the trade, but these two are playing some really great basketball. I have a hard time believing we'd be playing the way we are if Singleton and Seraphin were playing their minutes.

[DCZards]

This is one of the hazards of the Wizards strategy of rebuilding with 30-year old big men. If this team becomes good, it'll likely have a smaller window for success because key components are likely to start becoming less effective as they age.

The Zards strategy/goal should be to become good on the strength of the play of their 30 year old big men, which appears to be happening. While, at the same time, developing a young big or two who can step in for the 30 year olds in 2-3 years and help the team continue to get better. Unfortunately, the Zards currently lack that young big. Seraphin comes closest to being that player but, thus far, he's hasn't shown he has what it takes to fill that role.

Maybe the draft, a trade or free agency might yield that young big.

[hands11]

This is one of the hazards of the Wizards strategy of rebuilding with 30-year old big men. If this team becomes good, it'll likely have a smaller window for success because key components are likely to start becoming less effective as they age.

The Zards strategy/goal should be to become good on the strength of the play of their 30 year old big men, which appears to be happening. While, at the same time, developing a young big or two who can step in for the 30 year olds in 2-3 years and help the team continue to get better. Unfortunately, the Zards currently lack that young big. Seraphin comes closest to being that player but, thus far, he's hasn't shown he has what it takes to fill that role.

Maybe the draft, a trade or free agency might yield that young big.

Sounds like the plan they executed when they made this trade.

One more win against Det on the road and they get a break to heal up. Should be interesting to see if they tweak this at all and bring in any upgrades. Considering what they were last year, this is a total and complete upgrade. But there is more work to do. Both developing players they have and bringing in some new pieces.

But they aren't moving any of the core. Not this year. And not likely this off season.

[Kanyewest]

Teams don't become good because of continuity. They gain continuity because they become good. There's no reason to break up a good team. Bad teams change players because the reason a team is bad is because the players aren't good. Once you get good players, you keep them together while still trying to add more good players.

This is one of the hazards of the Wizards strategy of rebuilding with 30-year old big men. If this team becomes good, it'll likely have a smaller window for success because key components are likely to start becoming less effective as they age.

Teams can become worse due to lack of continuity. For instance someone like Caron Butler was ineffective in Flip Saunder's offense vs the previous regime. But yeah, good players don't hurt. Not sure how the Wizards are supposed to get quality young men other than the draft because teams aren't trading those guys.

[hands11]

When comparing the records of the non-Wall Wizards vs. non-Rose Bulls, keep in mind that Chicago opened the season with 3 starters (Noah, Deng, Boozer) who've been part of their starting core for several years. That's great continuity.

Not a single player in the Wizards starting lineup on opening day was even on the roster last season. Big difference.

Oh, and the Zards were without Nene, as well as Wall.

And their only PG who was a back up got hurt. Then we had Mack starting. Then Temple.
And Trevor A got hurt.
And Beal got hurt. And Booker. And And.

DC. Does it really matter anymore if people that don't see what is going on don't. They will eventually in time and nothing will change that until we are conference contenders. No amount of wins this year is going to change that. Move forward to next year. If we make the playoff and don't win the first round it will be more of the same. Once we get into the second round, then they will start to change their tune. Well that isn't likely to happen until next April. Except it. There will be people posting about all the moves we should have done and how this is fool gold until at least then. It is what it is.

Meanwhile, some of us will enjoy what we see them building, cheering them on, and talking about the pieces they can add to the core they have.

[montestewart]

Oh hands, you're so judgmental.