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2025 Draft Thread - Part 2

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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#301 » by nate33 » Sun May 11, 2025 2:01 pm

doclinkin wrote:Agents in particular may stir the pot. We heard rumors about Cooper Flagg for instance this year. There will be a first guy who spurns the NBA despite lotto projections. Picture how miserable a tanking team would be when the top of the draft empties out of guys who decide they’d rather stay in school than join a losing franchise. Players who wait til the lotto then decide to return to school if they don’t like what they see. Already the league has a problem with players deciding what team they will and won’t play for. Now the risk is even rookie prospects have that leverage. Meaning actually agents have it. Bronny didn’t need the NBA money so he could say he wouldn’t work out for anyone. Sarrs team snubbed the Hawks. Now any player can do it.

They really need to make the deadline for declaring for the draft take place before the lottery.
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#302 » by doclinkin » Sun May 11, 2025 2:21 pm

payitforward wrote:
doclinkin wrote:... I think the drain will result in 3-4 years of short drafts....

Unless my brain is malfunctioning (wouldn't be the first time), I believe the effect can only last one year. After all, the young guys who lay out in year 1 will be in the draft in year 2 -- replacing the young guys who lay out that year.

Now, if guys lay out 2 years, then yeah the effect can last that long. But there will be relatively few of those.


Some will stay one year. Some will stay 4. JT Toppin could have jumped last year. He’s going back for his junior season.

When staying in a year means your draft slot actually slips, then players can earn more by sticking in school than they would by declaring for the draft. Our guy Yaxel has a $3m offer from Michigan. That’s more than picks 25-30 earn on the rookie scale. The tendency of most players who return to school is their draft status slips a bit. Rarely improves.

We’ve barely begun to see the effects. As college kids stay longer and if a dominant team manages to cut its own TV deals etc there will be more NIL $ for college ‘stars’. Some team with a big dollar backer or its own savvy marketing will be able to flat out buy the best talent.

There is no rookie scale in the NCAA. Instead of buying an NBA team as a vanity toy Michigan state alum Mat Ishbia could have rented one for his alma mater. Or Ted cut a deal with Georgetown to siphon the best players here and make Hoyas the must see TV that draws an audience to his Monumental media network.

We are only beginning to see the potential arms race in college. A handful of players are getting paid. But some smart AD will figure the best way to hire college talent then squeeze the best deal out if the market to make a real contest with the NBA. They are already paying some players better than many Euro pro clubs. And the bottom 3rd of the rookie scale. Where does that stop?
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#303 » by payitforward » Sun May 11, 2025 2:52 pm

doclinkin wrote:
payitforward wrote:
doclinkin wrote:... I think the drain will result in 3-4 years of short drafts....

Unless my brain is malfunctioning (wouldn't be the first time), I believe the effect can only last one year. After all, the young guys who lay out in year 1 will be in the draft in year 2 -- replacing the young guys who lay out that year.

Now, if guys lay out 2 years, then yeah the effect can last that long. But there will be relatively few of those.

Some will stay one year. Some will stay 4. JT Toppin could have jumped last year. He’s going back for his junior season. ...

But still, he's only added 1 year to his college career.

doclinkin wrote:When staying in a year means your draft slot actually slips, then players can earn more by sticking in school than they would by declaring for the draft.... The tendency of most players who return to school is their draft status slips a bit.

But no one stays in college hoping his draft slot will slip, & if data indicates this is a statistically significant effect, that will inevitably figure into the calculus, causing fewer guys to stay the extra year. As to previous data, surely kids were staying precisely because it would allow them to improve -- hopefully upping their draft spot & above all lengthening their NBA careers.

doclinkin wrote:Our guy Yaxel has a $3m offer from Michigan. That’s more than picks 25-30 earn on the rookie scale....

But, being picked at, say 26, gives you two years & a (team) option for a third. Plus it means that you negotiate your second contract a year earlier. OTOH, more money now is appealing.

Really, the big thing this does is increase the number of promises from NBA GMs -- you pointed this out yourself in the case of Thomas Sorber. If, for example, Will Dawkins tells Yaxel's agent, "we're very likely to pick your guy at 18," the information will inform his decision.

The order of R1 post lottery will be be fixed earlier & become more predictable.

doclinkin wrote:...We’ve barely begun to see the effects. As college kids stay longer and if a dominant team manages to cut its own TV deals etc there will be more NIL $ for college ‘stars’. Some team with a big dollar backer or its own savvy marketing will be able to flat out buy the best talent.

There is no rookie scale in the NCAA. Instead of buying an NBA team as a vanity toy Michigan state alum Mat Ishbia could have rented one for his alma mater. Or Ted cut a deal with Georgetown to siphon the best players here and make Hoyas the must see TV that draws an audience to his Monumental media network.

We are only beginning to see the potential arms race in college. A handful of players are getting paid. But some smart AD will figure the best way to hire college talent then squeeze the best deal out if the market to make a real contest with the NBA. They are already paying some players better than many Euro pro clubs. And the bottom 3rd of the rookie scale. Where does that stop?

If there is an arms race, the NBA will win.
But there won't be, because this is really only good for players! Not for any of the institutions, "amateur" or pro. By competing with each other, all the NCAA & NBA can do long-term is increase their own costs & make kids richer. They have no interest in that outcome! :)
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#304 » by Dat2U » Sun May 11, 2025 8:11 pm

To me we have 27.4% of winning the draft vs 14.0 because both Flagg & Harper are worthy #1 picks in many years.

I like V.J. Edgecombe enough that I would be pleased with the opportunity to draft him if he measures ok and we land the 3rd pick (12.7%).

So a 40.1%, I'll be relatively happy after the lottery.

Landing at 4 (12.0%), I hope VJ falls due to Ace Bailey or I land on Tre Johnson as the player I have the most faith in to reach a plus outcome in his development.

So odds slightly favor us to land a top 4 pick at 52%.

At 5, if Tre or VJ doesn't fall (and Ace is still there), I lean Derik Queen due to his processing and skillet and hope to work with him on his motor on defense. I'm starting to view him more as a PF as well.

At 6, I have to assume Ace is off the board so one of the above will fall. If not, I take Jeremiah Fears or a trade down opportunity.
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#305 » by doclinkin » Sun May 11, 2025 8:57 pm

payitforward wrote:no one stays in college hoping his draft slot will slip, & if data indicates this is a statistically significant effect, that will inevitably figure into the calculus, causing fewer guys to stay the extra year.
.

Why I said temporarily. Until things shake out. The NIL deal is new. The COVID 6 year seniors have graduated. There’s no superpower or hierarchy established yet in college ball. It’s Wild West out there right now. We haven’t yet seen a true bidding war in the transfer portal or for high profile freshman players. As the money gets better I expect they’ll pass the 2nd half of the rookie scale within a year or two. But the CBA isn’t up for renewal for a while yet. The NBA can’t easily change it. Agents may press for a change and until then encourage their guys to stay with the early money.

At least until a high profile player returns but blows out his knee. At that point there’s insurance but no 4 year contract to pay him to rehab. Agents may get twitchy.

Also much depends on the one-and-done talent from year to year. Weak draft vs strong draft. Some players may stay an extra year when it’s thought the following draft year has less competition for a top spot.

Eventually yes both games get stronger. And the NBA will be better able to handle a 2 team expansion (64 player draft) without diluting the product too much. But I expect it will be volatile for a bit while we all figure things out.

I’m saying invest in future draft picks even from winning teams. Those late firsts may be better seasoned rookies. And will come cheap until the scale is tweaked.
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#306 » by payitforward » Sun May 11, 2025 9:21 pm

Well, I certainly agree with your last point -- as you would expect, since i don't believe the declining curve of productivity in draft pick numbers is all that significant (not saying insignificant...). OTOH, I don't believe "...both games get stronger." To put it another way, I detest the NCAA; it's a disgusting organization.
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#307 » by JAR69 » Sun May 11, 2025 9:50 pm

I certainly want one of the top 2 picks, but if don't get one of them tomorrow, I'm not going to despair. There are 8 teams left in the playoffs. Of those teams, there are only 3 players I might consider a star who were picked overall 1 or 2 (Towns, Edwards, Holmgren). FWIW, my list (with pick numbers) is:

Celtics: Tatum(3), Brown (3), Porzingis (4)
Knicks: Brunson (33), Towns (1)
Pacers: Haliburton (12), Siakim (27)
Cavs: Mitchell (13), Garland (5), Mobley (3)
Timberwolves: Edwards (1), Gobert (27), Randle (7)
Warriors: Curry (7), Bulter (30), Green (35)
Nuggests: Jokic (41), Murray (7)
Thunder: SGA (11), Holmgren (2), Williams (12)

This isn't a sophisticated statistical analysis, and I really don't want to reignite the "trade down" battle. I'm just saying that many stars/franchise players are not picked top 2.

I would also add that contrary to my expectations, 9 of 21 players on my list came to their current teams via trade, not the draft. That includes players happily going to supposedly non-desirable cities like Cleveland, OKC, and Indianapolis. It can be done.

We are on a good path even if the lottery doesn't turn out the way we want.
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#308 » by payitforward » Sun May 11, 2025 9:55 pm

Dat2U wrote:To me we have 27.4% of winning the draft vs 14.0 because both Flagg & Harper are worthy #1 picks in many years.

I like V.J. Edgecombe enough that I would be pleased with the opportunity to draft him if he measures ok and we land the 3rd pick (12.7%).

So a 40.1%, I'll be relatively happy after the lottery.

Landing at 4 (12.0%), I hope VJ falls due to Ace Bailey or I land on Tre Johnson as the player I have the most faith in to reach a plus outcome in his development.

So odds slightly favor us to land a top 4 pick at 52%.

At 5, if Tre or VJ doesn't fall (and Ace is still there), I lean Derik Queen due to his processing and skillet and hope to work with him on his motor on defense. I'm starting to view him more as a PF as well.

At 6, I have to assume Ace is off the board so one of the above will fall. If not, I take Jeremiah Fears or a trade down opportunity.

Good stuff, Dat.

I totally buy that Flagg/Harper are elite but am more skeptical about Edgecombe & (esp.) Tre Johnson. -- I wonder whether Queen or Maluach might not offer a higher ceiling & even a better chance of reaching that ceiling.

If we are at 3 or 4 in this draft, & someone is looking to trade up to our spot, I'm listening -- for the right return overall I'd be more than happy to wind up with either Queen or Maluach as my top pick.
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#309 » by SUPERBALLMAN » Sun May 11, 2025 10:23 pm

Film breakdown with Rasheer Fleming...


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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#310 » by payitforward » Sun May 11, 2025 10:59 pm

JAR69 wrote:I certainly want one of the top 2 picks, but if don't get one of them tomorrow, I'm not going to despair. There are 8 teams left in the playoffs. Of those teams, there are only 3 players I might consider a star who were picked overall 1 or 2 (Towns, Edwards, Holmgren). FWIW, my list (with pick numbers) is:

Celtics: Tatum(3), Brown (3), Porzingis (4)
Knicks: Brunson (33), Towns (1)
Pacers: Haliburton (12), Siakam (27)
Cavs: Mitchell (13), Garland (5), Mobley (3)
Timberwolves: Edwards (1), Gobert (27), Randle (7)
Warriors: Curry (7), Butler (30), Green (35)
Nuggets: Jokic (41), Murray (7)
Thunder: SGA (11), Holmgren (2), Williams (12)

This isn't a sophisticated statistical analysis, and I really don't want to reignite the "trade down" battle. I'm just saying that many stars/franchise players are not picked top 2.

I would also add that contrary to my expectations, 9 of 21 players on my list came to their current teams via trade, not the draft. That includes players happily going to supposedly non-desirable cities like Cleveland, OKC, and Indianapolis. It can be done.

We are on a good path even if the lottery doesn't turn out the way we want.

Good stuff!
& only 6 players of your 21 were picked in the top 3, while another 6 went at 27 or lower, & 9 were picked from 4-13.
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#311 » by SUPERBALLMAN » Mon May 12, 2025 12:24 am

Less than 24 hours to go!!!

Tomorrow night will reveal the fate of the franchise...


:o :pray: :waaa: :confused: :reporter: :hoop: :falloff: :wizard: :banghead: :clap:
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#312 » by AFM » Mon May 12, 2025 12:37 am

Brunson at 33 is crazy dude is too shnasty wit it
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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#313 » by SUPERBALLMAN » Mon May 12, 2025 1:01 am

TOP BIG MAN PROSPECTS...


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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#314 » by SUPERBALLMAN » Mon May 12, 2025 1:09 am

This will be me if the Wizards win the Lottery...


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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#315 » by SUPERBALLMAN » Mon May 12, 2025 1:34 am

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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#316 » by SUPERBALLMAN » Mon May 12, 2025 2:04 am

Wizards Lottery Preview


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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#317 » by SUPERBALLMAN » Mon May 12, 2025 2:38 am

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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#318 » by BearlyBallin » Mon May 12, 2025 3:54 am

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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#319 » by closg00 » Mon May 12, 2025 10:54 am

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Re: 2025 Draft Thread - Part 2 

Post#320 » by Northwest Roddy » Mon May 12, 2025 1:30 pm

SUPERBALLMAN wrote:This will be me if the Wizards win the Lottery...




I believe!!!

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