The Amazingly Suck Theodore Leonsis Thread

[DCZards]

A team w/ Fields or Brandon Rush (instead of Ariza), Elton Brand (instead of Okafor), Kawhi Leonard, Kenneth Faried and Chandler Parsons (instead of Vesely, Singleton and Mack), Jae Crowder (instead of... pick one of our pointless veterans to replace), Scott Machado (to add a point guard -- instead of the no one we got at #46), and substantial cap flexibility in the next couple of years -- that team is on the move towards contention (even though not all those moves would work out). Superteam or no Superteam -- especially keeping in mind that e.g. Miami is one serious injury from ex-Superteam.

It amazes me that you go through this constant rehashing of "what ifs." Most of it over mediorce to marginal talent (Fields, Rush), over-the hill players (Brand) or unproven talent (Machado, Crowder). We get it, payit, you don't like the makeup of the current Wizard team and you think EG could have drafted better. Guess what, so do I, especially in the case of Faried and Leonard.

Now when are you going to move on and stop sweating over the Zards not having certain players who, for the most part, ain't proven crap at this point in their NBA careers.

I don't think anyone here wants anything less than a team that will contend for a championship. But the first thing you need to do is acquire the type of talent and personalities that will help your team develop a winning culture, especially if you've been mired in mediocrity in recent years. And that's what the Zards' offseason moves (and the trade for Nene) were designed to do, imo. We'll see if it works.

[tontoz]

Wall, Beal and Nene are 3 legit talents.

Behind that, they have a bunch of pieces that fill various roles.

We don't even know how Beal will pan out. Looking at actual productivity the only guy on the roster who is close to an All-Star calibur player is Nene. Wall could become one in the next year or two but that remains to be seen.

We have nothing at the 3, no quality vets and no young prospects with potential. That is a huge hole that needs to be filled in order to get the most out of Wall and the bigs.

Role players are not that important for a bad/mediocre team. Role players have more value on a team that already has it's share of All-Star calibur players.

[badinage]

A team w/ Fields or Brandon Rush (instead of Ariza), Elton Brand (instead of Okafor), Kawhi Leonard, Kenneth Faried and Chandler Parsons (instead of Vesely, Singleton and Mack), Jae Crowder (instead of... pick one of our pointless veterans to replace), Scott Machado (to add a point guard -- instead of the no one we got at #46), and substantial cap flexibility in the next couple of years -- that team is on the move towards contention (even though not all those moves would work out). Superteam or no Superteam -- especially keeping in mind that e.g. Miami is one serious injury from ex-Superteam.

It amazes me that you go through this constant rehashing of "what ifs." Most of it over mediorce to marginal talent (Fields, Rush), over-the hill players (Brand) or unproven talent (Machado, Crowder). We get it, payit, you don't like the makeup of the current Wizard team and you think EG could have drafted better. Guess what, so do I, especially in the case of Faried and Leonard.

Now when are you going to move on and stop sweating over the Zards not having certain players who, for the most part, ain't proven crap at this point in their NBA careers.

I don't think anyone here wants anything less than a team that will contend for a championship. But the first thing you need to do is acquire the type of talent and personalities that will help your team develop a winning culture, especially if you've been mired in mediocrity in recent years. And that's what the Zards' offseason moves (and the trade for Nene) were designed to do, imo. We'll see if it works.

Amazes me, too.

I'm not saying the roster we've got is the '86 Celtics; there's some talent (not nearly enough) and some what-ifs (too many for my taste), and we'll need to see Wall take That Leap Forward if things are to come together the way they could.

But it's just comical to me that Landry Fields! Chandler Parsons! Brandon Rush! Danny Green! are trotted out as panaceas. This is Adding to the Talent Base?!

Also, some of us seem to be forgetting that there are other ways to add talent besides Having Boatloads o' Cap Room. It's not as if there's no maneuvering simply because cap is tied up. It's harder, but it's not impossible. And Okafor if he's healthy is an appealing chip to a contending team that needs big bodies to bang. Okafor with Booker? I'd think that'd be a tasty little package come trade deadline for a team like Boston or OKC. Maybe in return we get a Sullinger (if he's in one piece) or Melo or Perry Jones ...

[Nivek]

I'd have rather they used their assets this offseason to acquire young players with ability, an bargain vet or two, and maybe a one-year rental. I think they traded in a chance to build a team that could be championship contender in a couple years for a team that might make the playoffs for the next couple seasons. And then...they're going to need a new plan.

I think the front office misdiagnosed what was wrong with the team, and instead of making moves to upgrade the overall talent, they brought in older players who are pretty average, but work hard. So, what they'll get is a team that works hard, but will be pretty average -- unless Wall dramatically improves and becomes a superstar.

And sure, they could swap out Okafor for Something Else, but a) that would contradict Ted's statements that what the team needs now is stability and continuity (which suggests a largely "finished" roster -- also supported by the team forgoing opportunities to add players), b) would most likely bring back an average player who's overpriced, and c) would likely make it more difficult for the team to keep the "young core."

I think they made a bad choice when they traded away their cap and roster flexibility for two years and $45 million of Okafor and Ariza. I think getting out from under that mistake is likely to be costly.

But we'll see, of course. Maybe they're right this time.

Regardless, I'm mostly tired of talking about this. No one's saying anything new. Just sniping. So, we'll see. I hope they're good because I'm a fan. I don't think they will be, though. But we'll see.

[hands11]

Wall, Beal and Nene are 3 legit talents.

Behind that, they have a bunch of pieces that fill various roles.

We don't even know how Beal will pan out. Looking at actual productivity the only guy on the roster who is close to an All-Star calibur player is Nene. Wall could become one in the next year or two but that remains to be seen.

We have nothing at the 3, no quality vets and no young prospects with potential. That is a huge hole that needs to be filled in order to get the most out of Wall and the bigs.

Role players are not that important for a bad/mediocre team. Role players have more value on a team that already has it's share of All-Star calibur players.

He was the #3 pick and all signs point to him being legit. Would you bet against that happening ? Not only do I think he will be legit, I think he will show a lot of it this year.

I was a Beal fan way before the draft and I'm just as much if not more today. He was the right pick for this team. He was the right choice to run for Wall for years to come. We tanked hard to get that pick and we got the player we wanted.

Not that anything is ever curtain, but this team does have a #1 overall pick at PG and a #3 overall pick at SG. Worst case scenario, they are very good. Best case, they are amazingly great for lots of years. That is 2 of 5 core pieces for the next 7 years, maybe more. You can add pieces to that. Right now we have Nene for a min of 2 years. Add to that, we have stuff bubbling in the broth that still could turn into something or get traded for value.

Next year we have another first round pick as an asset to use or bundle for a player or a high pick if we give up something we have right now.

But first things first, bring on the season so we can see what we have.

[payitforward]

A team w/ Fields or Brandon Rush (instead of Ariza), Elton Brand (instead of Okafor), Kawhi Leonard, Kenneth Faried and Chandler Parsons (instead of Vesely, Singleton and Mack), Jae Crowder (instead of... pick one of our pointless veterans to replace), Scott Machado (to add a point guard -- instead of the no one we got at #46), and substantial cap flexibility in the next couple of years -- that team is on the move towards contention (even though not all those moves would work out). Superteam or no Superteam -- especially keeping in mind that e.g. Miami is one serious injury from ex-Superteam.

It amazes me that you go through this constant rehashing of "what ifs." Most of it over mediorce to marginal talent (Fields, Rush), over-the hill players (Brand) or unproven talent (Machado, Crowder). We get it, payit, you don't like the makeup of the current Wizard team and you think EG could have drafted better. Guess what, so do I, especially in the case of Faried and Leonard.

Now when are you going to move on and stop sweating over the Zards not having certain players who, for the most part, ain't proven crap at this point in their NBA careers.

I don't think anyone here wants anything less than a team that will contend for a championship. But the first thing you need to do is acquire the type of talent and personalities that will help your team develop a winning culture, especially if you've been mired in mediocrity in recent years. And that's what the Zards' offseason moves (and the trade for Nene) were designed to do, imo. We'll see if it works.

Amazes me, too.

I'm not saying the roster we've got is the '86 Celtics; there's some talent (not nearly enough) and some what-ifs (too many for my taste), and we'll need to see Wall take That Leap Forward if things are to come together the way they could.

But it's just comical to me that Landry Fields! Chandler Parsons! Brandon Rush! Danny Green! are trotted out as panaceas. This is Adding to the Talent Base?!

Also, some of us seem to be forgetting that there are other ways to add talent besides Having Boatloads o' Cap Room. It's not as if there's no maneuvering simply because cap is tied up. It's harder, but it's not impossible. And Okafor if he's healthy is an appealing chip to a contending team that needs big bodies to bang. Okafor with Booker? I'd think that'd be a tasty little package come trade deadline for a team like Boston or OKC. Maybe in return we get a Sullinger (if he's in one piece) or Melo or Perry Jones ...

Zards and Badinage are probably right -- I do wind up trying to make the same point frequently. Ok, I do it in response to frequent attempts to rationalize failing strategies, but still... they are nonetheless right.

So I'll try to stop writing about past mistakes.

In fact, the season having begun, I'd much rather just root for the team and enjoy what improvements we've made. I'm happy we drafted Beal, I'm hopeful Wall will come back soon and take significant steps in his 3d season, I'm hopeful about Seraphin, I think Booker is a better player than some of you seem to think. And so forth.

That said, I certainly didn't say "Landry Fields! Chandler Parsons! Brandon Rush! Danny Green! are ...panaceas." But indeed they would be "...Adding to the Talent Base". Parsons hasn't shown anything, though he was a better rookie than Shelvin Mack. But Fields, Rush and Green are better than Ariza, Martell Webster, A.J. Price, Jannero Pargo and players of that ilk.

The points I make repeatedly, and which I will now undertake to stop making because I don't want to be boring or a Johnny One-Note, are all the same on the money. Ssssh. Don't tell anyone I said that (again).

[tontoz]

[He was the #3 pick and all signs point to him being legit. Would you bet against that happening ? Not only do I think he will be legit, I think he will show a lot of it this year.

I wanted him to be the pick so obviously i am happy with it. However my endorsement certainly is no guarantee of success lol.

[rockymac52]

Here's why I'm okay with the Ariza/Okafor trade, and why I think it was a better option for us than keeping the cap space and hoping to hit a home run in free agency and become title contenders...

We weren't going to land a star free agent. It remains to be seen which stars will actually make it to free agency, but I bet you it's less than you'd expect. Then the few that do are looking to go to good teams, ideally. If we're talking about a player worth a maximum contract, then there's going to be plenty of other teams offering that player the same deal, so we have no advantage there. And let's be honest here, what star player is realistically going to want to sign with the Wizards if we're coming off another poor season with 30 wins or less?

The only way a star free agent would even consider signing with us is if we were coming off at least a .500 season and most likely in the playoffs. That was going to be hard to do without Ariza and Okafor, IMO. Hell, it still might be out of reach with them on board (even if Wall and Nene were healthy). So even if we had the cap space to sign one of the very few star free agents available, I highly doubt that player would even consider signing here for a second unless we made the playoffs this year. And even then, he probably has better options. We might be an up and coming team after finishing .500 and making the playoffs as an 8 seed, but we're not exactly a team on the verge of contending for a championship at that point either. And let's say we got that 8 seed and the stars aligned and some star free agent actually wanted to come here, and we signed him, would that really elevate us to championship contenders? There would still be a lot of work to be done. There's also the whole issue of fitting onto our roster for specific potential free agents. Take Harden for example, yeah, he's great and I'd love to have him, but if we already have Wall and Beal and they're good enough to get us to the playoffs then they're probably good in the grand scheme of things, so where would Harden fit? Maybe we could sign Josh Smith or some PF and slide Nene back to C, but there aren't that many options.



I think we realized that we just weren't going to sign a star free agent, even if we had cap space. And then we'd still be losing, and we'd be stuck. By trading for Okafor and Ariza, we theoretically improve enough to play near .500 ball and fight for a spot in the playoffs. More importantly, we surround Wall (and Beal) with more quality players. Say what you will, but the only way this team is legitimately contending for a championship in the next 5-7 years is is 1. Wall develops into a true star, 2. Beal develops into a true star, or 3. We draft someone in the coming years who develops into a true star. If more than one of those things happen, even better. But even if Wall turns out to be good, but not great, and likewise for Beal, we might be able to put together a competitive team that can make the playoffs in the East year in and year out, but it won't be good enough to compete for a championship. To get into that elite upper echelon of the league that's contending for a championship, it's almost definitely going to take one legitimate superstar. Our best bet to acquire that superstar was to hope that Wall and/or Beal develops into it. We can improve the odds of that happening by surrounding them with more quality players and veteran leaders at that. It's the only way.

[Nivek]

Here's why I'm okay with the Ariza/Okafor trade, and why I think it was a better option for us than keeping the cap space and hoping to hit a home run in free agency and become title contenders...

Jeebus...Why do folks keep repeating this bullspit as if it's the only argument that's been made? Alternative offseason and franchise building strategies have been laid out many times on the boards by myself, payitforward and others, and I don't recall any of them being predicated on hitting a home run in free agency or signing a star free agent.

Signing a star free agent is ONE way to use cap space. There are many others. But, the Wizards no longer have those options -- they've spent all their cap space for at least the next two seasons on Okafor and Ariza. In two years, when the contracts for Okafor and Ariza expire, the team could potentially have significant cap space -- if they don't re-sign those two AND they don't re-sign some combination of Wall, Seraphin, Booker and Crawford.

You can be "okay with" the Okafor/Ariza trade. Just cut out the straw man BS.

[dobrojim]

They may have spent their cap space for 2 seasons. Or not.
Either Ariza or Okafor could wind up somewhere else by
next year.

I liked your plan kev. But I'm not completely
convinced it would have worked better than what they
did. We'll have a better idea about their respective
merits in 2-4 months. And then I can say you were
right and I knew it all along.

[Ruzious]

Here's why I'm okay with the Ariza/Okafor trade, and why I think it was a better option for us than keeping the cap space and hoping to hit a home run in free agency and become title contenders...

Jeebus...Why do folks keep repeating this bullspit as if it's the only argument that's been made? Alternative offseason and franchise building strategies have been laid out many times on the boards by myself, payitforward and others, and I don't recall any of them being predicated on hitting a home run in free agency or signing a star free agent.

Signing a star free agent is ONE way to use cap space. There are many others. But, the Wizards no longer have those options -- they've spent all their cap space for at least the next two seasons on Okafor and Ariza. In two years, when the contracts for Okafor and Ariza expire, the team could potentially have significant cap space -- if they don't re-sign those two AND they don't re-sign some combination of Wall, Seraphin, Booker and Crawford.

You can be "okay with" the Okafor/Ariza trade. Just cut out the straw man BS.

+1,752 - or the number of times that same loser mentality / low IQ / we would suck anyway argument will be brought up - no offense to any one person. If the shoe fits you, by all means kick yourself with it.

[tontoz]

"There is no point in saving cap space since we couldn't lure anyone good here anyway"



If we used that "logic" with girls we'd never get laid.

[badinage]

Here's why I'm okay with the Ariza/Okafor trade, and why I think it was a better option for us than keeping the cap space and hoping to hit a home run in free agency and become title contenders...

Jeebus...Why do folks keep repeating this bullspit as if it's the only argument that's been made? Alternative offseason and franchise building strategies have been laid out many times on the boards by myself, payitforward and others, and I don't recall any of them being predicated on hitting a home run in free agency or signing a star free agent.

Signing a star free agent is ONE way to use cap space. There are many others. But, the Wizards no longer have those options -- they've spent all their cap space for at least the next two seasons on Okafor and Ariza. In two years, when the contracts for Okafor and Ariza expire, the team could potentially have significant cap space -- if they don't re-sign those two AND they don't re-sign some combination of Wall, Seraphin, Booker and Crawford.

You can be "okay with" the Okafor/Ariza trade. Just cut out the straw man BS.

The Okafor and Ariza CONTRACTS are for two years. That doesn't (necessarily) mean the team is in a straightjacket for two years.

Now, as to the larger point of all this -- here's what we're really talking about.

We have no hope at this point of being CLEAR CONTENDERS. That's Miami, LA, San Antonio, OKC. Maybe Chicago if fully healthy.

We are not DESPERATELY SEEKING GUY #3. That's the Nets, the Knicks, Atlanta, etc. Teams that desperately need that Third Guy -- available only by trade or FA. And who comes at an insane cost. For now, these teams are -- they hope -- biding their time.

We are not YOUNG AND LEGITIMATELY ON THE RISE. That's Philly and Denver.

We are not STUCK IN GEAR. That's Milwaukee, Utah, etc. Not young, not old. Not great, not awful. SIgnificantly, these teams don't have a great young player they can really build around.

We are STILL ASSEMBLING. Relying heavily on the draft, hitting on some guys, missing on others, hoping that a couple of these young'uns take the leap and become stars so that you can begin the process of actually constructing the team.

STILL ASSEMBLING is different and better than SORTA HOPELESS. That's Charlotte and some others.

So what Nivek and Payit and others are talking about, in talking about Danny Green and Lou Williams and Landry Fields, or holding out for Door #3 this summer with beaucoup cap room, is not maneuvering that would put us in the category of CLEAR CONTENDERS or DESPERATELY SEEKING GUY #3 or YOUNG AND LEGITIMATELY ON THE RISE. Nor is it maneuvering that would plunge us into SORTA HOPELESS. It is STILL ASSEMBLING maneuvering. As the Okafor and Ariza deal was. Or, to put it more clearly -- it is simply different maneuvering in the same category. It is not maneuvering, moreover, that would take our team from STILL ASSEMBLING to YOUNG AND LEGITIMATELY ON THE RISE.

The Okafor and Ariza deal may backfire -- who knows?; it may be a stabilizing thing that helps to bring out the best in the young guns -- who knows? One thing that's clear, though, is that it's not a daring move. It doesn't bespeak boldness. But I have not read anything on this board in the wake of that trade that bespeaks boldness. I have not heard of a FA acquisition(s) the team ought to have made that would, and historically, cap room has not been turned into significant prizes. My reading of the situation is that boldness -- legitimate boldness -- is not an option for this team RIGHT NOW, given the owner's stated intention of building through the draft and not being carefree with his money. We have not put ourselves in position to swing a trade for that third piece, nor are we a legit contender that is loaded with talent or money to burn, nor are we that young team that is clearly on the rise. We have to wait ... to see if the young talent matures and we are, in fact, on the rise. At which time, perhaps we can make a consolidation trade and/or position ourselves to be in contention for that third piece.

[montestewart]

"There is no point in saving cap space since we couldn't lure anyone good here anyway"



If we used that "logic" with girls we'd never get laid.

And what girl doesn't like a little cap space, eh?

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

"There is no point in saving cap space since we couldn't lure anyone good here anyway"



If we used that "logic" with girls we'd never get laid.

And what girl doesn't like a little cap space, eh?

Just don't fall for the ones who love you for your cap space. They end up searching for and eventually finding even more cap room. Either that or the they go for WNBA talent. You can't compete with that.

[LyricalRico]

So what Nivek and Payit and others are talking about, in talking about Danny Green and Lou Williams and Landry Fields, or holding out for Door #3 this summer with beaucoup cap room, is not maneuvering that would put us in the category of CLEAR CONTENDERS or DESPERATELY SEEKING GUY #3 or YOUNG AND LEGITIMATELY ON THE RISE. Nor is it maneuvering that would plunge us into SORTA HOPELESS. It is STILL ASSEMBLING maneuvering. As the Okafor and Ariza deal was. Or, to put it more clearly -- it is simply different maneuvering in the same category. It is not maneuvering, moreover, that would take our team from STILL ASSEMBLING to YOUNG AND LEGITIMATELY ON THE RISE.

Probably the best post on this whole subject I've seen in a while. I think you're on to something in saying that we're basically talking about the same goal/process - adding pieces to a team that's still building. Where we differ is what those pieces actually are. And there is absolutely room for disagreement on that. Great points.

The Okafor and Ariza deal may backfire -- who knows?; it may be a stabilizing thing that helps to bring out the best in the young guns -- who knows? One thing that's clear, though, is that it's not a daring move. It doesn't bespeak boldness. But I have not read anything on this board in the wake of that trade that bespeaks boldness. I have not heard of a FA acquisition(s) the team ought to have made that would, and historically, cap room has not been turned into significant prizes. My reading of the situation is that boldness -- legitimate boldness -- is not an option for this team RIGHT NOW, given the owner's stated intention of building through the draft and not being carefree with his money. We have not put ourselves in position to swing a trade for that third piece, nor are we a legit contender that is loaded with talent or money to burn, nor are we that young team that is clearly on the rise. We have to wait ... to see if the young talent matures and we are, in fact, on the rise. At which time, perhaps we can make a consolidation trade and/or position ourselves to be in contention for that third piece.

I would agree with most of this. The trade with NOH was a safe play that didn't require a ton of imagination, but there's a time for everything and this may not have been the time to be "daring" (which I think is the perfect word for this discussion). Those types of moves are fun for fans - at the time - but don't always bring lofty results.

I think of the Hawks that made a "daring" move a number of years ago to get a young Joe Johnson. He did become an All-Star, and the team was a low playoff seed, but Johnson ended up being declining and overpaid by the time the team was actually on the cusp of something really good. And now the Hawks have had to retool to cut salary and could be looking at rebuilding again.

So I think you could say that Atlanta made their "daring" move too soon, and so may have the Rockets if Lin and Asik don't live up to those contracts. I'm comfortable with the Wizards decisions, and I think there will be more opportunities down the road than some are predicting.

[long suffrin' boulez fan]

"There is no point in saving cap space since we couldn't lure anyone good here anyway"



If we used that "logic" with girls we'd never get laid.

And what girl doesn't like a little cap space, eh?

Just don't fall for the ones who love you for your cap space. They end up searching for and eventually finding even more cap room. Either that or the they go for WNBA talent. You can't compete with that.

But I love watching the WNBA

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Talking about this is certainly more interesting than talking about Ted.

I don't know a way to work in girls who like cap space and WNBA but I went to school with one. You could say she was a people pleaser.

[montestewart]

Talking about this is certainly more interesting than talking about Ted.

I don't know a way to work in girls who like cap space and WNBA but I went to school with one. You could say she was a people pleaser.

I knew that wise crack would get you to chime in, CCJ. On the subject of draft picks, trades, and building a roster, your innovation frees you to approach things from a novel perspective and think outside of the box. On this one subject, however, you always seem to be thinking in the box.

Which island are you on? If I ever make it out there, I've got to look you up.

Edit: never mind, I see you're on Oahu

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Right, I'm on Oahu, monte. Definitely let me know when you plan to visit!