Official Trade Thread -- Part XXXIX

[skywalker33]

Can anyone tell me the strengths/weaknesses of Troy Brown Jr and his availability, what would be the asking price ?

[payitforward]

To the Nuggets, right? What would be an offer you'd make?

[TGW]

I saw that offer on the nuggets board, and it was awful. You’d better work on that one before you propose it.

[skywalker33]

That's why I asked you guys what it would take, but if you can't just say so, no deflections necessary

[payitforward]

Keep in mind, I'm not an expert on the Nuggets priorities or assets. I am unlikely to know what I would want from the Nuggets or even what would make most sense for them & still be good for us.

OTOH, you know whom you are targeting, so I make the assumption that you have an idea what you'd give to have him.

If that doesn't make sense, sorry -- no blame.

[nate33]

Can anyone tell me the strengths/weaknesses of Troy Brown Jr and his availability, what would be the asking price ?

For his first two years, Brooks tried to force TBJ into the role of a 3&D small forward. His 3-point shot
has actually come around, though his release is a bit slow. The problem is that his defense is mediocre. He's competent when guarding SG's, but when he matches up with good forwards, he often gets overpowered. He's just not strong enough to be the #1 defensive option against the opposition's best wing, which means he's really not good enough to be a starting SF.

On the other hand, TBJ is actually quite a good ball handler and playmaker. He honestly has PG skills on offense, or at the very least, he's good enough to run pick-and-rolls against second-unit defenses and can run secondary pick-and-roll against starting-caliber defenses. Brooks has hinted that he intends to use him more as a 3rd guard this year, rather than a 3&D forward. I think that's going to be his role for a while - a 3rd guard who can play alongside either Wall or Beal.

If he gets stronger, particularly in the lower body, then maybe he can move into the starting SF role. But for now, that's going to be Isaac Bonga. Bonga is a better defender, even if he is a worse offensive player. A team with Wall, Beal, Hachimura and Bryant on the starting 5 doesn't need a lot of offense from SF.

[skywalker33]

Can anyone tell me the strengths/weaknesses of Troy Brown Jr and his availability, what would be the asking price ?

For his first two years, Brooks tried to force TBJ into the role of a 3&D small forward. His 3-point shot
has actually come around, though his release is a bit slow. The problem is that his defense is mediocre. He's competent when guarding SG's, but when he matches up with good forwards, he often gets overpowered. He's just not strong enough to be the #1 defensive option against the opposition's best wing, which means he's really not good enough to be a starting SF.

On the other hand, TBJ is actually quite a good ball handler and playmaker. He honestly has PG skills on offense, or at the very least, he's good enough to run pick-and-rolls against second-unit defenses and can run secondary pick-and-roll against starting-caliber defenses. Brooks has hinted that he intends to use him more as a 3rd guard this year, rather than a 3&D forward. I think that's going to be his role for a while - a 3rd guard who can play alongside either Wall or Beal.

If he gets stronger, particularly in the lower body, then maybe he can move into the starting SF role. But for now, that's going to be Isaac Bonga. Bonga is a better defender, even if he is a worse offensive player. A team with Wall, Beal, Hachimura and Bryant on the starting 5 doesn't need a lot of offense from SF.

Thanks for the info. Surprised to hear about his struggles on the defensive side, I believe he was noted for that coming out of college. If WAS was to make him available, any idea what his trade value is to the Wizards ?

[prime1time]

I don’t see why we would trade him unless you’re going to give us an amazing deal. We liked him with to draft him and we are developing him. The only reason I move him is as part of a larger package to get a star. The trades I see passed around belt the draft are laughable. Why would we trade Troy to draft a player who probably won’t even be as good? From what I understand we are very high in him. So I think it’s perhaps best to look else where.

As far as the scouting report I’d say eh. He just turned 21 and he’s still growing into his body. As he fills out I expect his struggles with SF’s to diminish. He’s been working on bus 3-point shot consistently and we have already seen improvement number wise. More importantly if you hear him talk he clearly has his head on straight bad he’s moving in the right direction. Given the fact that draft picks have the propensity to bust I wonder where my fellow Wiz fans would take him if he was available in the draft this year. In 2 or 3 years I can see him becoming a very good player so, it really makes no sense to consider trading him.

[prime1time]

Also how important is a slow release really? And what are you basing that on? When you watch him shoot, it’s looks like a normal release to me but idk. I guess if you compare to Steph or Trae Young, but his release seems perfectly ok to me. The only thing I care about is his percentage. He’s not going to be asked to create offense as a #1 option. If he can make open 3’s when the defense helps off I’m fine. He has the ball handling and passing ability to beat tough close outs.

[prime1time]

Can anyone tell me the strengths/weaknesses of Troy Brown Jr and his availability, what would be the asking price ?

For his first two years, Brooks tried to force TBJ into the role of a 3&D small forward. His 3-point shot
has actually come around, though his release is a bit slow. The problem is that his defense is mediocre. He's competent when guarding SG's, but when he matches up with good forwards, he often gets overpowered. He's just not strong enough to be the #1 defensive option against the opposition's best wing, which means he's really not good enough to be a starting SF.

On the other hand, TBJ is actually quite a good ball handler and playmaker. He honestly has PG skills on offense, or at the very least, he's good enough to run pick-and-rolls against second-unit defenses and can run secondary pick-and-roll against starting-caliber defenses. Brooks has hinted that he intends to use him more as a 3rd guard this year, rather than a 3&D forward. I think that's going to be his role for a while - a 3rd guard who can play alongside either Wall or Beal.

If he gets stronger, particularly in the lower body, then maybe he can move into the starting SF role. But for now, that's going to be Isaac Bonga. Bonga is a better defender, even if he is a worse offensive player. A team with Wall, Beal, Hachimura and Bryant on the starting 5 doesn't need a lot of offense from SF.

Thanks for the info. Surprised to hear about his struggles on the defensive side, I believe he was noted for that coming out of college. If WAS was to make him available, any idea what his trade value is to the Wizards ?

Talk about his defensive struggles are over blown imo. He’s not going to be your #1 wing defender but to be honest that’s a red herring because no one ever expected him to be that. Also, I’d take criticisms of the defense wizards players play with a grain of salt. The wizards have a culture of playing no defense. You put Troy in an environment/culture where defense is played and he’ll play defense. He won’t be all-nba defense but you won’t have to hide him either.

[nate33]

Also how important is a slow release really? And what are you basing that on? When you watch him shoot, it’s looks like a normal release to me but idk. I guess if you compare to Steph or Trae Young, but his release seems perfectly ok to me. The only thing I care about is his percentage. He’s not going to be asked to create offense as a #1 option. If he can make open 3’s when the defense helps off I’m fine. He has the ball handling and passing ability to beat tough close outs.

Perhaps it's not so much a slow release, but more of a hesitation to shoot. Either way, the problem is he only gets 4.7 3PA's up per 100 possessions. A guy like Dorian Finney-Smith gets up 6.9 3PA's. Kelly Oubre gets up 7.5. Jerami Grant gets up 6.6. If Troy isn't a threat to shoot the moment he has a look (either because he hesitates or he takes to long to get into his shooting motion), then defenses don't have to guard him as close.

It's not a huge deal. But it's something. Basically, he's a bit below-average as a floor spacing catch-and-shoot guy on offense, and he's below average as primary defender on the opposition's best wing. Those are the two things you want out of your 3&D wing and he is below average at both. It's why I say he's not a starting caliber 3&D wing yet.

I'm not hating. He can do other things very well. He's a very good ball handler, passer and rebounder. I hope Brooks figures out how to maximize his strengths going forward. For the time being, that's probably going to be as a playmaker for the second unit.

[prime1time]

Also how important is a slow release really? And what are you basing that on? When you watch him shoot, it’s looks like a normal release to me but idk. I guess if you compare to Steph or Trae Young, but his release seems perfectly ok to me. The only thing I care about is his percentage. He’s not going to be asked to create offense as a #1 option. If he can make open 3’s when the defense helps off I’m fine. He has the ball handling and passing ability to beat tough close outs.

Perhaps it's not so much a slow release, but more of a hesitation to shoot. Either way, the problem is he only gets 4.7 3PA's up per 100 minutes. A guy like Dorian Finney-Smith gets up 6.9 3PA's. Kelly Oubre gets up 7.5. Jerami Grant gets up 6.6. If Troy isn't a threat to shoot the moment he has a look (either because he hesitates or he takes to long to get into his shooting motion), then defenses don't have to guard him as close.

It's not a huge deal. But it's something. Basically, he's a bit below-average as a floor spacing catch-and-shoot guy on offense, and he's below average as primary defender on the opposition's best wing. Those are the two things you want out of your 3&D wing and he is below average at both. It's why I say he's not a starting caliber 3&D wing yet.

I'm not hating. He can do other things very well. He's a very good ball handler, passer and rebounder. I hope Brooks figures out how to maximize his strengths going forward. For the time being, that's probably going to be as a playmaker for the second unit.

Gotcha, I think he struggles with his confidence near the beginning of the year. I also think he struggled playing off ball with Beal. Definitely something to monitor though. Reading your post reminded me of Otto lol.

[dckingsfan]

I don’t see why we would trade him unless you’re going to give us an amazing deal. We liked him with to draft him and we are developing him. The only reason I move him is as part of a larger package to get a star. The trades I see passed around belt the draft are laughable. Why would we trade Troy to draft a player who probably won’t even be as good? From what I understand we are very high in him. So I think it’s perhaps best to look else where.

As far as the scouting report I’d say eh. He just turned 21 and he’s still growing into his body. As he fills out I expect his struggles with SF’s to diminish. He’s been working on bus 3-point shot consistently and we have already seen improvement number wise. More importantly if you hear him talk he clearly has his head on straight bad he’s moving in the right direction. Given the fact that draft picks have the propensity to bust I wonder where my fellow Wiz fans would take him if he was available in the draft this year. In 2 or 3 years I can see him becoming a very good player so, it really makes no sense to consider trading him.

I agree with your assessment. This is the draft thread so... I think that his name came up as we looked at the roster to see who we would move for a greater need. Example: Troy for the right rim protecting center.

But there certainly isn't a "need" to move him. He is almost certain to improve next year and that would make him even more valuable - especially if he hits 90% from 3, regardless of how many shots he takes (tweet in the Troy Brown thread).

[payitforward]

Also how important is a slow release really? And what are you basing that on? When you watch him shoot, it’s looks like a normal release to me but idk. I guess if you compare to Steph or Trae Young, but his release seems perfectly ok to me. The only thing I care about is his percentage. He’s not going to be asked to create offense as a #1 option. If he can make open 3’s when the defense helps off I’m fine. He has the ball handling and passing ability to beat tough close outs.

Perhaps it's not so much a slow release, but more of a hesitation to shoot. Either way, the problem is he only gets 4.7 3PA's up per 100 minutes....

?? Maybe you mean per 100 possessions? He takes 10 3PAs per 100 minutes. That's still way below average for a wing, however, which is the main point.

Still, his 2PAs, 3PAs & FTAs all went up his second year. & so did his %s in all of these. Given that he turned 21 less than 3.5 months ago, it seems way too early to worry about this.

To put it another way, Troy is almost 18 months younger than Rui. Their efg%s were virtually identical this season.

...It's not a huge deal. But it's something. Basically, he's a bit below-average as a floor spacing catch-and-shoot guy on offense, and he's below average as primary defender on the opposition's best wing. Those are the two things you want out of your 3&D wing and he is below average at both. It's why I say he's not a starting caliber 3&D wing yet.

Certainly not in those areas!

At the same time, if you compare his efg% to an average wing after you treat both guys' offensive boards as wiping out FGAs, you find that Brown is actually a more efficient scorer than an average wing.

Plus, a part of "defense" is "defensive rebounding." Troy gets almost 52% more defensive boards than an average wing.

Overall, Troy Brown, having just turned 21, is a well above average NBA wing.

Now... it makes sense that all starting wings should be better than average -- duh! So, the above doesn't automatically mean that Brown is as good as an average NBA starter. To learn about that, you'd have to look at average numbers for starting wings -- not the average of all NBA wings.

...I'm not hating. He can do other things very well. He's a very good ball handler, passer and rebounder. I hope Brooks figures out how to maximize his strengths going forward. For the time being, that's probably going to be as a playmaker for the second unit.

This is very much to the point. &, in fact, a good team is very likely to have guys on the second unit who are better than the league's average at their positions. Seems inevitable that they would.

But, improving on Brown's production -- wherever & whenever he plays -- is not a critical problem for the Washington Wizards. He was good as a rookie. He got substantially better in his 2d year. & young as he is, you'd expect him to continue to improve.

A critical problem of this kind is Rui Hachimura. He wasn't especially young as a rookie, & he wasn't good as a rookie. He's the guy to look at with a critical concern about whether he improves & how good or not he can be.

[nate33]

Also how important is a slow release really? And what are you basing that on? When you watch him shoot, it’s looks like a normal release to me but idk. I guess if you compare to Steph or Trae Young, but his release seems perfectly ok to me. The only thing I care about is his percentage. He’s not going to be asked to create offense as a #1 option. If he can make open 3’s when the defense helps off I’m fine. He has the ball handling and passing ability to beat tough close outs.

Perhaps it's not so much a slow release, but more of a hesitation to shoot. Either way, the problem is he only gets 4.7 3PA's up per 100 minutes....

?? Maybe you mean per 100 possessions?

Yes.

[TGW]

The more I mull it over, the more I want to do a Beal for MPJ deal. Take Harris, Bol, and their pick this year and in 2023, and I think that's a move the Wizards should do. MPJ and Rui would make a pretty nice forward duo for the future. Harris is a good stopgap guard until Brown Jr develops into the guy; the extra pick gets you T. Bey or Tillman.

[long suffrin' boulez fan]

The more I mull it over, the more I want to do a Beal for MPJ deal. Take Harris, Bol, and their pick this year and in 2023, and I think that's a move the Wizards should do. MPJ and Rui would make a pretty nice forward duo for the future. Harris is a good stopgap guard until Brown Jr develops into the guy; the extra pick gets you T. Bey or Tillman.

I’d absolutely consider that deal.

Wall/ish
Harris/TBJ/Matthews/Bey
MPJ/Halliburton/Bonga
Rui/Bertans/Diakite
Bryant/Bol/Wagner

[Ruzious]

The more I mull it over, the more I want to do a Beal for MPJ deal. Take Harris, Bol, and their pick this year and in 2023, and I think that's a move the Wizards should do. MPJ and Rui would make a pretty nice forward duo for the future. Harris is a good stopgap guard until Brown Jr develops into the guy; the extra pick gets you T. Bey or Tillman.

I’d absolutely consider that deal.

Wall/ish
Harris/TBJ/Matthews/Bey
MPJ/Halliburton/Bonga
Rui/Bertans/Diakite
Bryant/Bol/Wagner

That's interesting, though I kinda doubt Denver would give up that much. It's hard to say how much they value MPJ - he seems to be an odd duck. I'd try to move Harris if I can get a future 1st. And I'd start Halli at the 2 - at least by midseason.

[nate33]

If I traded Beal for MPJ, I'd have to be pretty damn confident in his health. The reason MPJ fell so far in the draft was that his medical records were indistinguishable from a horror novel.

I don't know about how things stand right now with his knee. If we could get a healthy MPJ, the trade might be worth Beal. But I'm not particularly optimistic that that's the case.

[Rafael122]

Read on Twitter

If I'm reading the tea leaves correctly, it's entirely possible Bertans could be traded to the Hawks for the 6th pick. I have no idea how to feel about this because IMO, it sends the wrong message to Brad about winning, and Bertans would be the best outside shooter Wall has ever had. To rob him of the chance to play with Bertans is...not great.

On the other hand, Kevin O'Connor had the Wizards moving up to 6 in a draft night trade (TBJ, 9th, and 37th for the Hawks' 6th pick) so where there's smoke, there's fire?