Woj: Deni to Portland for 14th pick and Brogdon

[dckingsfan]

I am not sure why this is so hard to grasp... but it is.

If you have an asset for less than what it is worth unless you have to do so. Porzingis is a good example as is Gafford. One could opt out and the other was on an expiring contract. You trade expiring contracts anytime you can (in our situation) for assets.

But with Deni or Kuz, we have time (wait until you get the right offer or don't pull the trigger).

In the case of Deni our FO got ahead of themselves and outplayed themselves by declaring they were going to get an additional first round pick in this draft.

But it is just one mistake in the ugly process of rebuilding. Maybe they will have more success on other fronts. Maybe they will be poor at trading but good at drafting and acquiring FAs (kind of a reverse Tommy if you will).

You may consider it a “mistake” but, in reality, at this point we don’t know for sure whether it was a good or bad trade.

It will depend, in large part, on how much better Deni gets…and how good Carrington becomes and what the Zards do with the other FRP, the two SRPs and Brogdon.

I was not a fan of the Deni trade…but it’s far too early to pass final judgement on it.

Thanks Captain Obvious.

Of course we don't know for sure. There's the small chance that Carrington is much better than Deni, which would make the trade worth it. But we make trades based on the known information at the time. And I'm saying it was an extremely bad bet to trade away an improving 3rd-best-player-on-a-playoff team caliber player for the #14 in a weak draft plus what is likely to be a mid-to-late draft pick in the 2029 draft.

And of course it isn't too early to pass judgement on specific transactions.

When I say this is just one mistake in a long rebuild, that isn't a final outcome. There will be mistakes made. There just needs to be more wins than losses for a successful rebuild.

But it is far too early to predict if this FO will have a successful rebuild, especially with some of their earlier missteps. This looks like a longer rather than shorter rebuild.

[DCZards]

I am not sure why this is so hard to grasp... but it is.

If you have an asset for less than what it is worth unless you have to do so. Porzingis is a good example as is Gafford. One could opt out and the other was on an expiring contract. You trade expiring contracts anytime you can (in our situation) for assets.

But with Deni or Kuz, we have time (wait until you get the right offer or don't pull the trigger).

In the case of Deni our FO got ahead of themselves and outplayed themselves by declaring they were going to get an additional first round pick in this draft.

But it is just one mistake in the ugly process of rebuilding. Maybe they will have more success on other fronts. Maybe they will be poor at trading but good at drafting and acquiring FAs (kind of a reverse Tommy if you will).

You may consider it a “mistake” but, in reality, at this point we don’t know for sure whether it was a good or bad trade.

It will depend, in large part, on how much better Deni gets…and how good Carrington becomes and what the Zards do with the other FRP, the two SRPs and Brogdon.

I was not a fan of the Deni trade…but it’s far too early to pass final judgement on it.

Thanks Captain Obvious.

Of course we don't know for sure. There's the small chance that Carrington is much better than Deni, which would make the trade worth it. But we make trades based on the known information at the time. And I'm saying it was an extremely bad bet to trade away an improving 3rd-best-player-on-a-playoff team caliber player for the #14 in a weak draft plus what is likely to be a mid-to-late draft pick in the 2029 draft.

Personally, I don’t think the chance of Carrington becoming as good (or better) than Deni is all that small. The fact that Bub was the 14th pick in a so-called weak draft is insignificant.

At the end of the day, you judge the player and not the draft they were in or where they were picked…says Captain Obvious.

[Bonscott]

The only downside to Deni being gone is that now there no one to laugh at for missing so many lay ups

[payitforward]

The only downside to Deni being gone is that now there no one to laugh at for missing so many lay ups

Deni didn't miss a lot of lay ups... but at least you're trying to lighten the tone a little, &, personally, I thank you for that!

I wish there was a lot less heat in the room right now.

Deni was the guy I wanted at 9 in 1920. There is no question that he made a significant jump last season. No need to denigrate it. No debate possible. Teams don't give two R1 picks, two R2 picks, & a productive veteran for a bad player. They give that kind of value for a good player. I imagine that's obvious.

As fans of a team, we are all likely to over-value our team's players. Every team's fans does that. & even the most analytical mind is subject to prejudice of that kind (& other kinds). Presumably that's why we think Deni "should" have brought more.

A good example is the widely-shared belief here that we could get a #13 (or similar) pick for Kyle Kuzma. Even though he's not a good player. Why Kuz is not good -- you don't need to read this:

Spoiler:

Kuz is a low % high-volume shooter. His TS% has never cracked 55% in 7 NBA seasons. There's no particular reason to think it ever will.

A volume shooter at low efficiency is, specifically, a guy who helps you lose games.

He can make up for those wasted possessions, of course, by gaining extra possessions for your team -- just be high in steals & offensive boards & low in turnovers.

Unfortunately, Kuz is low in steals & offensive boards while being high in turnovers. The opposite IOW. That's a fatal combination for offensive effectiveness. Nor would anyone claim that Kuz is a particularly good defender.

I *like* Kuz -- let me say that for what must be the 100th time. He's an exceptionally interesting person, he gives the impression of being a generous giver to good causes, he seems to be an excellent teammate, in all there's every reason to think well of him. But, he is not a good NBA player. He's not average or close to average.

Of course, he still might bring a R1 pick, because...

Spoiler:

as we all know, the NBA is a TV-focussed entertainment business. It's that above all. It's that above being a competitive sports league. That context favors guys like Kuz & no doubt raises his value. Does it raise his value sufficiently that we wind up getting a R1 pick for him? I sure hope so!

[nate33]

The only downside to Deni being gone is that now there no one to laugh at for missing so many lay ups

Does your username have anything to do with the original lead vocalist for AC/DC?

[montestewart]

The only downside to Deni being gone is that now there no one to laugh at for missing so many lay ups

Does your username have anything to do with the original lead vocalist for AC/DC?

Quick Bonscott, make something up, golden opportunity to craft a fabulous backstory

[AFM]

Deni was the guy I wanted at 9 in 1920.

Biden moment

[montestewart]

Deni was the guy I wanted at 9 in 1920.

Biden moment

Or maybe extreme prescience?

[AFM]

Deni was the guy I wanted at 9 in 1920.

Biden moment

Or maybe extreme prescience?

PIF analyzing the draft 100 years beforehand

[payitforward]

Deni was the guy I wanted at 9 in 1920.

Biden moment

Or maybe extreme prescience?

Far from it. Haliburton would have been a far better choice on my part!

For that matter, Desmond Bane, taken at #30, has been a substantially better player than Deni. Maxey, Quickley & Jaden McDaniels have been better than he as well.

OTOH, of course, at least 3 of the 8 guys taken before Deni haven't been as good as he.

[Kanyewest]

Biden moment

Or maybe extreme prescience?

Far from it. Haliburton would have been a far better choice on my part!

For that matter, Desmond Bane, taken at #30, has been a substantially better player than Deni. Maxey, Quickley & Jaden McDaniels have been better than he as well.

OTOH, of course, at least 3 of the 8 guys taken before Deni haven't been as good as he.

PIF discovered 100 years of time travel and we learned research can only do so much.

[joshuacf]

But as you have it, defense, availability, versality, size, rebounding, passing, and intangibles are in fact all important NBA skills and traits.

Availabilty and intangibles are what you're going with? How was Deni any more available or more having in intangibles than Kispert?

Kispert is a decent player, not here to trash him but he has some flaws that are going to be hard to fix. You could play him off the floor in the playoffs if he is to ever get there because he is that bad on defense. Positionally at one point last season, he along with Kuzma and Poole were amongst the worst defensive players at each of their respective positions in the entire league according to defensive LEBRON. I didn't check out how the numbers finished, but I'd make a fair guess that he didn't move up much. Now even if you don't like that stat, there are other stats as well as the eye test that will tell you he's a really bad defender. With that said, Kispert is great a shooting volume threes and actually is really good at getting to the bucket, it's just that whatever points he gets you he gives up in spades. Watch the games, he's targeted all game long because of this.

We aren't debating who is a better player in 2024. You made excuses for Deni being a poor player when he first came into the league. "It's tough being a rookie coming into a team that's trying to win" as if there aren't multiple rookies each season that do just that.

Then I made the point that both Kispert and Rui came into the same situation as rookies and performed much better than Deni did. Then you pivoted again and made excuses for Deni because he was younger than those two. Then I pointed out that Kispert as a 22 year old rookie was as competent as a 22 year old Deni in his third season. Now you're once again reframing the argument to make this a discussion about their current abilities when it never was.

But hey, Deni came into the league as a 20 year old rookie on a team that was trying to win! There's no way anybody could be successful in such a situation, right?

Insert Scottie Barnes, Chet, Jalen Williams, (EDIT: Dereck Lively, who was younger than Deni was as a rookie), and many more.

Fact is that Deni floundered for his first three years of his career. Nobody to blame but himself, despite whatever excuses you want to make for him. He has now improved into a solid NBA player. But he's nowhere near a star. Success in the NBA is built on superstars, not Deni Avdija's.

Wrong.

There are one, two, or three stars on a team. There are four or five superstar players in the league. You win with Denis.

Derrick White and Jrue Holiday were no better than Deni is now when they were 23.

I could not disagree with you more. The Wizards F'd up trading Deni for what they got.

Sent from my SM-A146U using RealGM mobile app

Jrue Holiday was an All-Star at age 22/23 in year 4 of his NBA career, so spare me the "he was no better than Deni at 23" lies. Not to mention that Jrue was wildly better than Deni in their first 3 seasons.

Jason Tatum and Jaylen Brown are superstars; all NBA talents. Each of them individually would have a chance to carry a team to the playoffs. That is what the NBA is built on.

And Deni is nowhere near a "star", so your point is ridiculous anyway. Thank god we got rid of him and are gonna give those reps to guys who actually may become "stars" (and have a functional left hand!). Couldn't stand another season of watching delusional fans act like Deni is the long-term solution to this team's problems.

[badinage]

No one’s acting like that. Don’t strawman this.

He’s a young, still-developing, and impressive player. Not a Tatum, but there are only 10-11 guys like that in the league.

Jettisoning a 23 yr old — 23! — who put up 15/7 on 37% 3 pt shooting + defense because you’re rebuilding is extremely short-sighted. Or extremely weird. Or extremely both.

[DCZards]

I’m sure it was a very difficult decision to trade Deni. He’s a young and improving player on a great contract.

The Zards FO looked at the pros and cons of the trade and apparently decided the pros outweighed the cons. It is what it is.

[payitforward]

Jrue Holiday was an All-Star at age 22/23 in year 4 of his NBA career, so spare me the "he was no better than Deni at 23" lies. ...

Hey man... You have a point of view & a lot of interesting stuff to say -- good for you. I'm glad you're here.

& there is no doubt that Jrue Holiday was (& is!) a better player than Deni Avdija.

All the same, I'll be grateful if you don't call anyone a liar again. Just a request on my part; hope that's ok w/ you.

For one thing, "I disagree, & here's why" works a lot better than "stop lying." & for another, I don't think there's a lot of interest in confrontation here; it'll just get people (me anyway) to put you on "ignore."

No need for an explicit response to this request. & if you're glad Deni's gone, that's fine too. We've all got a right to our most & least favorite players.

Like you, I'm excited to see what the new kids can do. & I'd trade pretty much any of our veterans for pretty much any return in the form of draft capital!

Ok... back to the fray!

[Kanyewest]

Availabilty and intangibles are what you're going with? How was Deni any more available or more having in intangibles than Kispert?



We aren't debating who is a better player in 2024. You made excuses for Deni being a poor player when he first came into the league. "It's tough being a rookie coming into a team that's trying to win" as if there aren't multiple rookies each season that do just that.

Then I made the point that both Kispert and Rui came into the same situation as rookies and performed much better than Deni did. Then you pivoted again and made excuses for Deni because he was younger than those two. Then I pointed out that Kispert as a 22 year old rookie was as competent as a 22 year old Deni in his third season. Now you're once again reframing the argument to make this a discussion about their current abilities when it never was.

But hey, Deni came into the league as a 20 year old rookie on a team that was trying to win! There's no way anybody could be successful in such a situation, right?

Insert Scottie Barnes, Chet, Jalen Williams, (EDIT: Dereck Lively, who was younger than Deni was as a rookie), and many more.

Fact is that Deni floundered for his first three years of his career. Nobody to blame but himself, despite whatever excuses you want to make for him. He has now improved into a solid NBA player. But he's nowhere near a star. Success in the NBA is built on superstars, not Deni Avdija's.

Wrong.

There are one, two, or three stars on a team. There are four or five superstar players in the league. You win with Denis.

Derrick White and Jrue Holiday were no better than Deni is now when they were 23.

I could not disagree with you more. The Wizards F'd up trading Deni for what they got.

Sent from my SM-A146U using RealGM mobile app

Jrue Holiday was an All-Star at age 22/23 in year 4 of his NBA career, so spare me the "he was no better than Deni at 23" lies. Not to mention that Jrue was wildly better than Deni in their first 3 seasons.

Jason Tatum and Jaylen Brown are superstars; all NBA talents. Each of them individually would have a chance to carry a team to the playoffs. That is what the NBA is built on.

And Deni is nowhere near a "star", so your point is ridiculous anyway. Thank god we got rid of him and are gonna give those reps to guys who actually may become "stars" (and have a functional left hand!). Couldn't stand another season of watching delusional fans act like Deni is the long-term solution to this team's problems.

I could still see people saying Deni was a better player than Holiday was during his all star season. Holiday averaged 18 ppg, 8 apg , and 4 rpg with a 49 TS%. Deni averaged 18 ppg, 4.6 apg, and 8.6 rpg with a 60 TS%. Looked like Holiday had better talent relative to Deni around him considering the time and the competition for all star was much weaker apparently.

[joshuacf]

Wrong.

There are one, two, or three stars on a team. There are four or five superstar players in the league. You win with Denis.

Derrick White and Jrue Holiday were no better than Deni is now when they were 23.

I could not disagree with you more. The Wizards F'd up trading Deni for what they got.

Sent from my SM-A146U using RealGM mobile app

Jrue Holiday was an All-Star at age 22/23 in year 4 of his NBA career, so spare me the "he was no better than Deni at 23" lies. Not to mention that Jrue was wildly better than Deni in their first 3 seasons.

Jason Tatum and Jaylen Brown are superstars; all NBA talents. Each of them individually would have a chance to carry a team to the playoffs. That is what the NBA is built on.

And Deni is nowhere near a "star", so your point is ridiculous anyway. Thank god we got rid of him and are gonna give those reps to guys who actually may become "stars" (and have a functional left hand!). Couldn't stand another season of watching delusional fans act like Deni is the long-term solution to this team's problems.

I could still see people saying Deni was a better player than Holiday was during his all star season. Holiday averaged 18 ppg, 8 apg , and 4 rpg with a 49 TS%. Deni averaged 18 ppg, 4.6 apg, and 8.6 rpg with a 60 TS%. Looked like Holiday had better talent relative to Deni around him considering the time and the competition for all star was much weaker apparently.

Deni averaged 14.7 ppg, not 18. And Jrue's fourth season was in 2012-13 prior to the shot clock changes, so not sure how valuable a direct statline comparision is.

[payitforward]

Jrue Holiday was an All-Star at age 22/23 in year 4 of his NBA career, so spare me the "he was no better than Deni at 23" lies. Not to mention that Jrue was wildly better than Deni in their first 3 seasons.

Jason Tatum and Jaylen Brown are superstars; all NBA talents. Each of them individually would have a chance to carry a team to the playoffs. That is what the NBA is built on.

And Deni is nowhere near a "star", so your point is ridiculous anyway. Thank god we got rid of him and are gonna give those reps to guys who actually may become "stars" (and have a functional left hand!). Couldn't stand another season of watching delusional fans act like Deni is the long-term solution to this team's problems.

I could still see people saying Deni was a better player than Holiday was during his all star season. Holiday averaged 18 ppg, 8 apg , and 4 rpg with a 49 TS%. Deni averaged 18 ppg, 4.6 apg, and 8.6 rpg with a 60 TS%. Looked like Holiday had better talent relative to Deni around him considering the time and the competition for all star was much weaker apparently.

Deni averaged 14.7 ppg, not 18. And Jrue's fourth season was in 2012-13 prior to the shot clock changes, so not sure how valuable a direct statline comparision is.

Actually, Jrue was better his 2d year than either his 3d or his 4th. All star selections have little to do with the season you're having that particular year.

As to how many points deni or Jrue scored, it looks like joshuacf is listing "points per game," which is, obviously, a pretty much meaningless number independent of a) how many FGAs/FTAs it took to get those points & b) how many minutes the guy averaged per game.

In any case, it's utterly arbitrary to compare Deni Avdija to Jrue Holiday. What's the point?

[payitforward]

Last year, Deni averaged 19.5 points per 40 minutes at a TS% of 59.7%. That's very good obviously.

[joshuacf]

Actually, Jrue was better his 2d year than either his 3d or his 4th. All star selections have little to do with the season you're having that particular year.

His PER-36's improved noticably in points and assists in year 4. What other than a marginally improved TS% in year 2 leads you to believe his 2nd year was better than year 4?

As to how many points deni or Jrue scored, it looks like joshuacf is listing "points per game," which is, obviously, a pretty much meaningless number independent of a) how many FGAs/FTAs it took to get those points & b) how many minutes the guy averaged per game.

Kanye West stated "Holiday averaged 18 ppg, 8 apg , and 4 rpg with a 49 TS%. Deni averaged 18 ppg, 4.6 apg, and 8.6 rpg with a 60 TS%."

Those are "points per game" stats for Holiday. So it wasn't me that first used the point per game, as much as you'd like to place that on me.

In any case, it's utterly arbitrary to compare Deni Avdija to Jrue Holiday. What's the point?

Because this is a basketball forum and someone made the comparision between Deni and Jrue.