"Linning" at The Great Wall Of China Town 2/8/12 7pm NBATV

[dobrojim]

if the PnR was impossible to defend, teams would be
avging 180 pts a game and the last team with the ball
would win.

[fugop]

This video from Izzo has the best discussion I've seen of P&R defense:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVcFMYPGifk

[fugop]

The biggest difference in this game is Novak. He's the guy that creates so much space for Lin and Chandler to run the pick and roll. This is why we need Ryan Anderson or some other jumpshooting big really bad. It would make Wall so much better.

I totally agree Novak was the difference maker but I believe
that was because we didn't force him to move in order to score.
I think pretty much all 5 of his 2ndQ 3s were just stand still,
catch the pass, shoot. There was one were we flew at him
and he ball/shot faked and was even more open.
Why not deny him a pass or at least force him to move
around to catch the ball. Novak is no mystery. This isn't rocket science.

I wasn't keeping track of who was guarding Novak in the 1st half, but Vesely got burned a couple of times in the second. He was cheating too far into the lane, unable to recover on any quick passes to Novak.

Vesely should have stayed with Novak in retrospect, but it's hard to fault the only guy who was trying to help on defense. I also suspect Vesely still isn't able to judge the speed of the NBA game and the time it will take to recover v. get off a shot.

[Dat2U]

Dat, if Wall turns into a scoring Gary Payton with better speed and finishing ability, I will be very pleased. John Wall is playing A LOT BETTER the past 3 or 4 weeks. Just like Cousins they are both doing some good things.

Wall, unfortunately, has this team to carry. I would no longer say what WAS TRUE FOR A WHILE, that McGee was a better C than Wall was a PG. John Wall must have had some sort of confidence problems. Actually, I like his aggression and he is shooting much better. Meanwhile, McGee has quit. He has mentally checked out and he is killing the team with a lack of attention to detail.

The parts of the game that John Wall doesn't have are not things you learn. This is what I mean about Lin, said by others.

Mike D’Antoni said Jeremy Lin has an innate ability to control the flow of the game.

“He has a pace to his game,” D’Antoni said. “First of all, he has real good speed, he gets in the lane, he gets by people, he has a sense of setting the guy up, a sense of where the openings are. It’s hard to teach. Some guys have it.”

Steve Novak, who played for the Spurs last season, compared Lin to Tony Parker.

Novak said, “Getting the defense on its heels and at a disadvantage is what he does best. I played with Tony Parker last year and he had the same skill, creating chaos on defense. It’s where all the open shots come from.”

Read more: http://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/21 ... z1lreFj5r1

I think confidence is everything in the NBA. And I said on more than one occassion, it appeared that Wall lost his confidence, especially in his jumper. And it doesn't matter how much Wall worked on his jumper in the offseason. Confidence doesn't automatically translate from the offseason to the regular season. Until he has extended success in NBA games with his jumper then he's going to be succeptible to struggles like he has.

But I think the last few weeks have provided a lot of good signs. And certaintly the same goes for Cousins too. My point is about getting caught up in the moment and failing to have some perspective. As good as Cousins is right now, he was completely incorrigable at the beginning of the season. Likewise, Wall's recent stretch is impressive but certainly we all want to see continued growth and development in terms of fine tuning his skills and learning the finer nuances of pace and tempo.

Regarding parts of the game that Wall doesn't have that "are not learned", that's really subjective and certainly NOT fact. And it really underestimates the ability for a dedicated player to work on his weaknesses and improve. I'm seeing more signs that Wall realizing he doesn't have to go 100 mph all the time. I'm seeing him incorportate some change of pace/hestitation moves into his game. Certainly he lacks the polish of some of the other PGs but I think it's unfair to say he's not capable of learning and improving at various aspects of being a PG.

[pancakes3]

if the PnR was impossible to defend, teams would be
avging 180 pts a game and the last team with the ball
would win.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

CCJ and JJ,

I can't disagree with you guys more on this issue. I was at the game last night and no, Wall didnt play lights out defense but to say that he was the problem with Lin going off, is completely off base. Wall played "ok" on D, not great but just "ok". Sure, a handfull of times Lin beat him one on one, which shouldnt happen (the other guys get paid too though) but if you watched the game, the main problem was how we played the PnR. The big never and i mean never stop Lin from turning the corner and essentially Wall was not only having to go behind the pick setter but also his own teammate. What player can play good defense that way? And I'm sure the 8,000 uncontested layups where Walls fault. Where's was the big man protecting the rim? For every crtiique of Wall you have for getting beat and allowing his man to get to the rim, you could say the opposite and give him praise for doing the same at the other end. The only difference is that you won't praise him because Wall will get into the paint and guess what, there will be a defender there and it won,t be so easy for him. So when he misses or gets called for a charge, you'll be the first to say it was his fault and he should have been more under control. It really does seem like the two of you have a point to make and will do anything with the information to make it. There are two sides to every story. Tell me how many times a defender stepped up and took a charge last night or contested a shot in the paint? No very many if any at all. Now tell me how many times the Knicks were actually in the paint? A whole lot. But Wall is the problem and not the rediculous lack of BBIQ that the entire team has or the lack of a good defensive system.

I said Wall and no other Wizards could stop Lin. I saw Lin beat Crawford a bunch of times. Don't put words in my mouth to say Wall was the reason Lin went off.

What my argument was those who kept saying Wall played great. You say he played ok D and you were there. I only watched the second half and probably won't bother to view the DVR'd first half. MDSTar, one other who was there said Wall was partly the problem on defense.

In my opinion Wall routinely allows opposing guards to penetrate. PNR helped Lin, but Lin got in the lane off the dribble at will.

MDStar, I didn't say Wall is the problem on defense. I said Wall is playing much better defense.

I did say, but later apologized, that Wall was not sharing the ball on offense. I thought he was just looking for his shot, exclusively, many times up the court. When I started watching I felt for the other four Wizards because Wall was taking (and making) a bunch of shots. However, by the fourth it was clear to me Wall was playing hard, playing well, and doing all he knows how to do.

I posted what it is Wall cannot do.

I never said the poor defense was all Wall's fault or even insinuated that Wall was the one who lost it for the Wizards.

[MDStar]

Wall is 11-18...can't bash that

People will try because their agendas won't let them accept that he's been the only bright spot tonight.

Not true about me. Yep, I have an agenda against Wall.

Today his jumper has looked very good. He has played hard and well. I was wrong to go there and just blamed him because the Knicks are beating the Wizards.

It is not on Wall today. 11-18 is fine.

But at the same time who is covering Lin?

I'm sorry if you felt that I put words in your mouth but in a lot of your posts about this game, where you sang praises to the greatness of Lin, in the same breath kept asking who was guarding him and how they were doing such a poor job. Even in the post that I have quoted above, that was a direct referrence to JW. Again I apologize to you if my post came across as an misrepresented attack, I just am opposed to seeing one-side views on a player (our player) but only positive comments about his counterpart, who Wall torched to the tune of 29pts and 6 assists. In all of your Lin is more talented talk, have you mentioned who was guardiing Wall? Just question as I havent read this entire thread.

[Dat2U]

I guess it was obvious that you'd go straight to personal attacks, but whatever.

I'm still not understanding how all you pysch majors are figuring this all out. If I were trying to convince everyone that, say, Chris Paul was a bad PG, then I'd assume you'd have a point. Since I'm saying the same thing that Greg Anthony, who had a long career as an NBA PG, and Dennis Scott said, it seems hard to suggest that this is some physcological blind spot where I'm making something up. Or how CCJ saw Wall's game the same way I did. Is he just having Gilbert Arenas withdrawal too?

As for Greg Anthony's opinion carrying no weight in comparison to yours? That's foolish stuff right there, given that Anthony has been in and around the NBA and played PG for a long time. And your point about the Miller/Foye trade, completely incorrect as I noted that Doc RIvers (an NBA coach, not a member of the media), said the trade would make Washington contenders. Never did I cite a member of the media on that.

Calling Arenas "my boy" is pretty weak. If you are a Wizards fan, he was "your boy" too and any suggestion otherwise is absurd revisionist history.

Do you have any basketball substance with which to debate? Or just a bunch of one-off personal attacks? That was a rhetorical question.

Maybe its personal to you because it's the truth.

I've tried to talk strickly basketball with you but it's like arguing with a kid who's got ADD. Your arguments are consistently built on fallacy. You never acknowledge any legitimate arguments made and your quick the change the subject matter when cornered. And as soon as anyone calls you out, it's "personal". So what's the point? It's a waste of time. I'd prefer to just call you as I see it. Take it personally if you want. I really don't care.

[Hodges4Three]

CCJ,

I've been casually noting down times when Wall generates a wide open look for a teammate, either by driving, running a play, or in transition, and they miss the shot.

The Wiz are averaging just under five bricked gimmes a game over the last ten contests. Maybe Lin did a better job setting up teammates last night, but he's not dealing with a crew that consistently fails to capitalize on his setup jobs.

The Knicks' Walker was 1-8 on 3's last night. In the Utah game Jeffries blew like 5 open layups from Lin passes. You can make the same excuse for most PG's in most games. "Derrick Rose could have had 12 assists instead of 7 had Boozer or Noah been able to make an open shot" etc.

I see the difference as being Wall looks to score first, then dish. With Lin he always tries to make the correct play, and slows things down/sets up the spacing to run the right plays. Wall is always just sprinting at full speed trying to score. It was blatantly clear in last nights game, every time Lin scored on him Wall would grab the ball and try to sprint to the other end and score to try and show him up or something. He was focused on the individual battle while Lin was focusing on his team as a whole.

Wall just does not have pure PG instincts and would simply be far better suited as a 2-Guard like D-Wade. Wade is a great passer as well but his strength is attacking the basket with a scoring mentality much like Wall.

[tontoz]

CCJ,

I've been casually noting down times when Wall generates a wide open look for a teammate, either by driving, running a play, or in transition, and they miss the shot.

The Wiz are averaging just under five bricked gimmes a game over the last ten contests. Maybe Lin did a better job setting up teammates last night, but he's not dealing with a crew that consistently fails to capitalize on his setup jobs.

The Knicks' Walker was 1-8 on 3's last night. In the Utah game Jeffries blew like 5 open layups from Lin passes. You can make the same excuse for most PG's in most games. "Derrick Rose could have had 12 assists instead of 7 had Boozer or Noah been able to make an open shot" etc.

I see the difference as being Wall looks to score first, then dish. With Lin he always tries to make the correct play, and slows things down/sets up the spacing to run the right plays. Wall is always just sprinting at full speed trying to score. It was blatantly clear in last nights game, every time Lin scored on him Wall would grab the ball and try to sprint to the other end and score to try and show him up or something. He was focused on the individual battle while Lin was focusing on his team as a whole.

Wall just does not have pure PG instincts and would simply be far better suited as a 2-Guard like D-Wade. Wade is a great passer as well but his strength is attacking the basket with a scoring mentality much like Wall.

Wall averged 8 assists as a rookie, more than Paul and way more than Deron. He rarely attacked in the half court set in the first few months last year, looking to defer. Then some of the teams best scorers got traded or got hurt and he became more aggressive.

The Wizards were 2-17 from 3 last night. Kicking it out to open shooters doesn't work when guys cant shoot.

[hands11]

This video from Izzo has the best discussion I've seen of P&R defense:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tVcFMYPGifk

Very nice

I think the Wizards teach up and over. I see Dray doing that a lot. Also some trap and some feather.

[Ruzious]

CCJ,

I've been casually noting down times when Wall generates a wide open look for a teammate, either by driving, running a play, or in transition, and they miss the shot.

The Wiz are averaging just under five bricked gimmes a game over the last ten contests. Maybe Lin did a better job setting up teammates last night, but he's not dealing with a crew that consistently fails to capitalize on his setup jobs.

The Knicks' Walker was 1-8 on 3's last night. In the Utah game Jeffries blew like 5 open layups from Lin passes. You can make the same excuse for most PG's in most games. "Derrick Rose could have had 12 assists instead of 7 had Boozer or Noah been able to make an open shot" etc.

I see the difference as being Wall looks to score first, then dish. With Lin he always tries to make the correct play, and slows things down/sets up the spacing to run the right plays. Wall is always just sprinting at full speed trying to score. It was blatantly clear in last nights game, every time Lin scored on him Wall would grab the ball and try to sprint to the other end and score to try and show him up or something. He was focused on the individual battle while Lin was focusing on his team as a whole.

Wall just does not have pure PG instincts and would simply be far better suited as a 2-Guard like D-Wade. Wade is a great passer as well but his strength is attacking the basket with a scoring mentality much like Wall.

Wall definitely looks to pass... when it makes sense. When he's running the break and all of his teammates are in back of him, does it makes sense to you that he should look to pass? Really? Look at his teammates. Nick Young wasn't hitting. Who else on that roster should he look for? He had a matchup against Lin. What coach in their right mind coaching the Wizards would not look to exploit that matchup? Wall is a point guard - period. He's not D-Wade. He's not even Westbrook. He's Wall. Using your logic, you might as well call Rose a shooting guard.

[pancakes3]

wall does go into "score" mode quickly and often. however, there are times (especially noticeable to me when playing with booker) that you can see where the pre-draft talk of "pure pg instincts" at play. it goes a lot more than penetrate-then-kick-out too. i've seen wall make great interior hand-offs (again mostly to booker). what i DON'T see is passes in space to cutters and good use of the pick and roll. the former is due to the fact that our team isn't good at cutting. the latter sits squarely on the shoulders of wall. i don't think he's a very good pnr pg, which is a crying shame.

[jivelikenice]

You guys want Wall to go into pg mode? With how exactly? He has no big to play pick n roll with and only one decent outside shooter? This board is ridiculous. John scored 29, had a 6-1 assist to TO ratio, and shot above 50% yet everyone is still complaining. Do you guys actually think Lin would be lighting it up with the same cast of characters that John is working with? Really?

And he is a pure pg. He's just in an awful offensive system where after he makes a swing pass he has to go to the corner while Young or Crawford pound the ball into the court for the remainder of the shot clock and take a low % shot. Wall actually should have recognized that nobody else aside from him & Booker had anything going last night and should have attacked more. Our only chance last night was if he shot 30 times last night and tried to go for 40. And I say that not because I think he should do that every night. I think on certain nights with teammates who are very limited, he needs to be aggressive on offense to draw the defense towards him. To attack a defense you need to create mismatches and spacing by drawing attention. Is there any other player on the roster right now who can draw a double team? NO.

[jivelikenice]

wall does go into "score" mode quickly and often. however, there are times (especially noticeable to me when playing with booker) that you can see where the pre-draft talk of "pure pg instincts" at play. it goes a lot more than penetrate-then-kick-out too. i've seen wall make great interior hand-offs (again mostly to booker). what i DON'T see is passes in space to cutters and good use of the pick and roll. the former is due to the fact that our team isn't good at cutting. the latter sits squarely on the shoulders of wall. i don't think he's a very good pnr pg, which is a crying shame.

There are a few questions to ask about if Wall is a good pick n roll pg
1. Do we have anyone who can set a good hard pick like Chandler was?
2. Do we have an effective player who can roll off the pick
3. Is it a large part of our offense?

I agree that Wall looks like hes more effective in iso's but I'd have to see him with a good pick n roll post player before making a determination.

I heard a clip from Mo Evans today where it sounded like he was calling out the coaches. He basically asked why we don't use Wall like the Knicks use Lin. He cited Wall's speed and straight up said that the ball should be running through wall on pick n rolls and they should space em out with shooters on the outside. He said he didn't understand why the Wizards wouldn't do something similar or take a note out of Mike D's playbook. Do you think Mo Evans says that if we're calling pick n rolls and wall's just ineffective at it? Mo's a vet without an agenda and his word carries weight. He probably recognizes that our best chance to win is to copy the Knicks formula and get the ball in Wall's hand 90% of the time. I do think we should run it going to his right though. When he goes left in the halfcourt set he gets stuck bringing the ball back into his body when he does shoot or pass.

[Illuminaire]

I don't believe Wall played pick and roll much in college, and it certainly hasn't been a big part of his pro offense. I think he'd need a season or two to learn it... but that learning process needs to start right now.

I agree with Mo Evans, heh.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

When the wizards DID do a big show on the PnR, Lin split it. So later in the game they didn't show as hard and he was able to get around it. That's why they run the PnR so much in the NBA -- once you get Ph.D. bbiq pgs running it, like Stockton, or I guess Lin, there's basically no way to defend it.

Actually I don't remember Lin splitting the defenders, but I'll take your word for it. But in any case I'd rather force him to try that then let him get around the corner on the big. If you force the guard to try to split the defenders he is going to have a much harder time.

The real point of PnR defense is that it requires the big to hustle and move his feet. He doesn't have to be perfect, but he has to put forth effort. He has to do a bit of work to slow down the dribbler, and he has to hustle to get back to his man once the guard who was screened has recovered. This requires effort, and its the main reason that McGee and Blatche are so lousy at defending the play: they are simply lazy on defense. They don't care enough.

The two big guys the Wizards have that actually do a decent (but still not great) job defending PnR are Booker and Vesley. Its no coincidence that these guys are hustlers.

Perhaps a front court of Singleton, Booker, and Vesely might have worked better against PnR.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

People will try because their agendas won't let them accept that he's been the only bright spot tonight.

Not true about me. Yep, I have an agenda against Wall.

Today his jumper has looked very good. He has played hard and well. I was wrong to go there and just blamed him because the Knicks are beating the Wizards.

It is not on Wall today. 11-18 is fine.

But at the same time who is covering Lin?

I'm sorry if you felt that I put words in your mouth but in a lot of your posts about this game, where you sang praises to the greatness of Lin, in the same breath kept asking who was guarding him and how they were doing such a poor job. Even in the post that I have quoted above, that was a direct referrence to JW. Again I apologize to you if my post came across as an misrepresented attack, I just am opposed to seeing one-side views on a player (our player) but only positive comments about his counterpart, who Wall torched to the tune of 29pts and 6 assists. In all of your Lin is more talented talk, have you mentioned who was guardiing Wall? Just question as I havent read this entire thread.

Find where I said Lin is more talented.

[Ruzious]

When the wizards DID do a big show on the PnR, Lin split it. So later in the game they didn't show as hard and he was able to get around it. That's why they run the PnR so much in the NBA -- once you get Ph.D. bbiq pgs running it, like Stockton, or I guess Lin, there's basically no way to defend it.

Actually I don't remember Lin splitting the defenders, but I'll take your word for it. But in any case I'd rather force him to try that then let him get around the corner on the big. If you force the guard to try to split the defenders he is going to have a much harder time.

The real point of PnR defense is that it requires the big to hustle and move his feet. He doesn't have to be perfect, but he has to put forth effort. He has to do a bit of work to slow down the dribbler, and he has to hustle to get back to his man once the guard who was screened has recovered. This requires effort, and its the main reason that McGee and Blatche are so lousy at defending the play: they are simply lazy on defense. They don't care enough.

The two big guys the Wizards have that actually do a decent (but still not great) job defending PnR are Booker and Vesley. Its no coincidence that these guys are hustlers.

Perhaps a front court of Singleton, Booker, and Vesely might have worked better against PnR.

They did play the 3 of them together for a stretch - I even mentioned it during the game. They took turns leaving Novak wide open, and obviously none of them knew how to play center. Part of that is obviously inexperience.

[7-Day Dray]

wall does go into "score" mode quickly and often. however, there are times (especially noticeable to me when playing with booker) that you can see where the pre-draft talk of "pure pg instincts" at play. it goes a lot more than penetrate-then-kick-out too. i've seen wall make great interior hand-offs (again mostly to booker). what i DON'T see is passes in space to cutters and good use of the pick and roll. the former is due to the fact that our team isn't good at cutting. the latter sits squarely on the shoulders of wall. i don't think he's a very good pnr pg, which is a crying shame.

I heard a clip from Mo Evans today where it sounded like he was calling out the coaches. He basically asked why we don't use Wall like the Knicks use Lin. He cited Wall's speed and straight up said that the ball should be running through wall on pick n rolls and they should space em out with shooters on the outside. He said he didn't understand why the Wizards wouldn't do something similar or take a note out of Mike D's playbook. Do you think Mo Evans says that if we're calling pick n rolls and wall's just ineffective at it? Mo's a vet without an agenda and his word carries weight. He probably recognizes that our best chance to win is to copy the Knicks formula and get the ball in Wall's hand 90% of the time. I do think we should run it going to his right though. When he goes left in the halfcourt set he gets stuck bringing the ball back into his body when he does shoot or pass.

Our players realize just how dumb our offensive system is too.