Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VI

[Ruzious]

This thread grows in a huge hurry! I'm having trouble keeping up.

Yet... it seems obvious to me that if we keep #3 pick, we'll pick Porter. He fits the bill in every possible way. To me he's a surer thing than Noel, and to say his upside is limited...? I don't get that. He's still 19.* He and Beal were freshmen the same year at the same age. Porter was at least as good as Beal, and then he improved as a sophomore.

I doubt there's any GM in the league who would pass on him at #3; my worry is that he gets taken @ #1 or 2.

And... it seems equally obvious to me that we'll keep the #3 pick. For that reason, all the speculation about Center prospects seems odd to me.


* Actually... today's Porter's birthday so he's turned 20.

Meh, he's already into his 20's. Pass.

[Deeptu McPullup]

I still don't know that a stretch 4 is a need though. As long as Wall plays up to his potential we should be winning a lot of games with a lineup of Wall/Beal/Porter/Nene/Okafor with Web and Ariza as guys off the bench.

Having a permanent stretch 4 as a starter simply changes the DNA of this team that we just recently started to generate some success with.

Maybe 'stretch 4' is potentially overdoing it as we're talking about a specialist with a limited number of guys like that in the entire league, but a power forward who can shoot would open things up considerably. As much success as was generated, it was certainly not on the offensive side of the ball as we were the only top 10 defense to miss the playoffs.

My view is that Nene and Okafor together in the starting lineup is a poor allocation of resources in that they degrade the symmetry on offense without cause as they're limited minute players - like most centers - who should give us about 26-28 minutes a game. If we just give them the minutes that's appropriate with one off the bench, they'd just need to be on the court together for about four minutes. This would be a big advantage over most teams in that we'd have a starting quality center in there for the entire game so long as both guys are healthy. Whatever toughness we're losing in the starting lineup, we're gaining on the bench, so it's not like we're curtailing their production overall.

If we can bring in a quality four with who can shoot and then start him, we're effectively swinging much of our horrific offensive bench production at the 4-5 slots out with someone who opens the middle of the floor for dribble penetration in the starting lineup. I love what Okafor and Nene bring, but I don't think it's a knock on those guys at all to say we're fairly well dysfunctional offensively at power forward and suffered greatly from spacing issues. Nene'd be OK at power forward with Spencer Hawesome flying wingman, but we're not really playing to our strengths as is.

It would also seem that - if Porter's our guy - as he develops and presumably starts to take advantage of his big frame to score inside on post ups or off cuts, the need for spacing from the 4 will be ongoing.

Aside from that, my interpretation of Wall's position is not that he's calling for Bennet or Zeller but rather that he wants us to get some sort of a veteran. It would be extremely surprising to me if Ernie wasn't of a similar mind, though we might have to go bargain bin here given the middling bits we have to swing it with. That might actually be good news.

[pancakes3]

Had Javale McGee never existed, we could just as easily be talking about Gobert and Nogueira in terms of Tysons Chandler, Marcus Camby, Larry Sanders, and other accomplished rebounder/shotblockers who are long and thin.

...

I haven't seen nearly enough of Gobert or Lucas to have a sense of how good they will be or whether they'll be drafted too high or low. Respectfully, I doubt you or anyone else here has either. But both have been on the radar of professional draftniks who have touted their potential for over a year. That means something to me.

::shrug:: Maybe I am once McGee'd and twice shy but both guys have put up paltry numbers in their respective foreign leagues in limited minutes, both guys will be 21 years old before the season starts, and both guys are sub-240lbs. The faith in their production is NOT in their game film but in the fact that they're tall and potentially moldable.

Gee, really? I mean Vukovic is probably the best young C in the league (after Drummond), so I guess yeah he'd be better than an unknown wouldn't he?

Fair enough. I should have been more precise in saying "the CHANCE of a pekovic/vucevic pickup in Adams/Len at the expense of..."

Of course a straight up trade of the 3rd for pek or vucevic would be a no-brainer rather than "almost makes it worth it."

[sfam]

I still don't know that a stretch 4 is a need though. As long as Wall plays up to his potential we should be winning a lot of games with a lineup of Wall/Beal/Porter/Nene/Okafor with Web and Ariza as guys off the bench.

Having a permanent stretch 4 as a starter simply changes the DNA of this team that we just recently started to generate some success with.

Maybe 'stretch 4' is potentially overdoing it as we're talking about a specialist with a limited number of guys like that in the entire league, but a power forward who can shoot would open things up considerably. As much success as was generated, it was certainly not on the offensive side of the ball as we were the only top 10 defense to miss the playoffs.

My view is that Nene and Okafor together in the starting lineup is a poor allocation of resources in that they degrade the symmetry on offense without cause as they're limited minute players - like most centers - who should give us about 26-28 minutes a game. If we just give them the minutes that's appropriate with one off the bench, they'd just need to be on the court together for about four minutes. This would be a big advantage over most teams in that we'd have a starting quality center in there for the entire game so long as both guys are healthy. Whatever toughness we're losing in the starting lineup, we're gaining on the bench, so it's not like we're curtailing their production overall.

If we can bring in a quality four with who can shoot and then start him, we're effectively swinging much of our horrific offensive bench production at the 4-5 slots out with someone who opens the middle of the floor for dribble penetration in the starting lineup. I love what Okafor and Nene bring, but I don't think it's a knock on those guys at all to say we're fairly well dysfunctional offensively at power forward and suffered greatly from spacing issues. Nene'd be OK at power forward with Spencer Hawesome flying wingman, but we're not really playing to our strengths as is.

It would also seem that - if Porter's our guy - as he develops and presumably starts to take advantage of his big frame to score inside on post ups or off cuts, the need for spacing from the 4 will be ongoing.

Aside from that, my interpretation of Wall's position is not that he's calling for Bennet or Zeller but rather that he wants us to get some sort of a veteran. It would be extremely surprising to me if Ernie wasn't of a similar mind, though we might have to go bargain bin here given the middling bits we have to swing it with. That might actually be good news.

It seems entirely reasonable that Wall wants someone like Bennett. Given these comments, the chances we draft Bennett should be a lot higher than 10%. I wouldn't be surprised if Wall told EG that Bennett would fit wonderfully into our offense. Bennett can "pick and pop" with the best of them. Just as importantly, he gets to the line when the game tightens up in the 4th.

[DCZards]

Looking at the John Wall Appreciation Thread and the Amazingly Sucky John Wall thread from February, I really don't see many calls for his immediate trade. What I do see is a lot of worried but clear analysis of the way his game looked prior to his surge in March. With the benefit of hindsight, I think that analysis and worry holds up very well. Even Jonathan Joseph, who seemed certain that Wall would never improve, repeatedly said that he hoped Wall improved, and I think will acknowledge his improvement.

It kind of feels like perhaps some loyal John Wall supporters have created from memory, out of the significant, quite varied, and largely legitimate criticisms of John Wall's game earlier in the season, a huge and unified (and in fact never really existing) TRADE JOHN WALL NOW movement. This is as great a revisionism regarding John Wall as any other I'm seeing.

There was certainly no large (or majority) "trade Wall movement" but there was a lot of handwringing by impatient posters who somehow expected Wall to come off an injury and more than 4 months of inactivity and not skip a beat. That was unrealistic.

Then when Wall did start playing better people had this crazy notion that he had somehow "hit a switch" and overnight his game had improved dramatically when, in reality, his improvement was largely the result of getting in better playing shape and developing an improved comfort level and cohesion playing with guys like Beal, Ariza, Webster and Okafor, who Wall had never, ever played with prior to early January.

[rockymac52]

Fair enough. I should have been more precise in saying "the CHANCE of a pekovic/vucevic pickup in Adams/Len at the expense of..."

Of course a straight up trade of the 3rd for pek or vucevic would be a no-brainer rather than "almost makes it worth it."

Since Pekovic is a restricted free agent, would it even theoretically be possible for Minnesota to trade him to us prior, during, or immediately after the draft for the 3rd pick? My gut tells me they wouldn't be able to trade him, but who knows?

[Dat2U]

Good post deeptu. While I've been vocal in wanting to see Nene moved because of health reasons, the 2nd best option to me would be to bring Nene off the bench as the 3rd big capable of playing either position. At this stage of his career, Nene can make a living feasting off of backup quality talent, much like he did earlier this past season before seeing his numbers take a hit once he became a starter again. I think it's essential that we acquire a starting PF for the reasons you stated along with the fact I don't think Nene is an 82 game, 30+ minute player anymore.

It's much like the situation at backup PG. Sure, you could go into the season with A.J. Price, but that means lessons weren't learned from last year's 4-28 debacle. Same with Nene, you could add a backup 3pt specialist believing that Okafor & Nene will do the heaving lifting next season, but you'll likely end up depending on that specialist or Ernie's Kids to hold the fort down for large periods of time.

[Dat2U]

Fair enough. I should have been more precise in saying "the CHANCE of a pekovic/vucevic pickup in Adams/Len at the expense of..."

Of course a straight up trade of the 3rd for pek or vucevic would be a no-brainer rather than "almost makes it worth it."

Since Pekovic is a restricted free agent, would it even theoretically be possible for Minnesota to trade him to us prior, during, or immediately after the draft for the 3rd pick? My gut tells me they wouldn't be able to trade him, but who knows?

No. Teams can't trade someone not signed to a contract and free agents can't sign contracts until after July 1st.

[sfam]

Good post deeptu. While I've been vocal in wanting to see Nene moved because of health reasons, the 2nd best option to me would be to bring Nene off the bench as the 3rd big capable of playing either position. At this stage of his career, Nene can make a living feasting off of backup quality talent, much like he did earlier this past season before seeing his numbers take a hit once he became a starter again. I think it's essential that we acquire a starting PF for the reasons you stated along with the fact I don't think Nene is an 82 game, 30+ minute player anymore.

It's much like the situation at backup PG. Sure, you could go into the season with A.J. Price, but that means lessons weren't learned from last year's 4-28 debacle. Same with Nene, you could add a backup 3pt specialist believing that Okafor & Nene will do the heaving lifting next season, but you'll likely end up depending on that specialist or Ernie's Kids to hold the fort down for large periods of time.

Who's at more risk of injury and what's the impact if the go down?
- Nene and Okafor (Ernie's kids as backup)
- Ariza & Webster (Cartier Martin as backup)
- Beal (Price and Webster as backup, oh and Temple)
- Wall (Price as backup)

I think most would place their money on Nene and Okafor as having the biggest chance of injury(with Nene being in the lead), with Beal following afterwards. If we are drafting to shore up potential injuries, I think Bennett and Zeller make the most sense (and Len if you are OK drafting centers with ankle concerns), followed perhaps by CJM as a backup to Beal and Wall.

[tontoz]

Looking at the John Wall Appreciation Thread and the Amazingly Sucky John Wall thread from February, I really don't see many calls for his immediate trade. What I do see is a lot of worried but clear analysis of the way his game looked prior to his surge in March. With the benefit of hindsight, I think that analysis and worry holds up very well. Even Jonathan Joseph, who seemed certain that Wall would never improve, repeatedly said that he hoped Wall improved, and I think will acknowledge his improvement.

It kind of feels like perhaps some loyal John Wall supporters have created from memory, out of the significant, quite varied, and largely legitimate criticisms of John Wall's game earlier in the season, a huge and unified (and in fact never really existing) TRADE JOHN WALL NOW movement. This is as great a revisionism regarding John Wall as any other I'm seeing.

There was certainly no large (or majority) "trade Wall movement" but there was a lot of handwringing by impatient posters who somehow expected Wall to come off an injury and more than 4 months of inactivity and not skip a beat. That was unrealistic.

Then when Wall did start playing better people had this crazy notion that he had somehow "hit a switch" and overnight his game had improved dramatically when, in reality, his improvement was largely the result of getting in better playing shape and developing an improved comfort level and cohesion playing with guys like Beal, Ariza, Webster and Okafor, who Wall had never, ever played with prior to early January.

I don't think it is quite that simple. Wall's jumper had been a train wreck his first two seasons and then all of a sudden he starts making threes and also starts hitting those pullup 2s off the dribble.

[stevemcqueen1]

Were you here back then? I can't remember you log on, were you somebody else? I remember in March, making posts about how Beal's shooting percentages improved incrementally every month, and substantially in feb and march as his confidence grew, and Donovan began to rely on him more. Other than one Debbie downer nightmare game where he missed a ton of three's, he was much better from behind the arc, and from 2 throughout feb and march, but a lot of posters kept trying to argue that the stats were what mattered and not his perfect form, and prior history as an outstanding jumper. Despite preferring MKG, and being interested in a trade down for Drummond, I really felt some people were obsessing over small sample sized stats from a freshman, felt the same exact way about Drummond, and this year I feel that way about Muhammad. If a guys entire history is positive, and he has one off season or half season as freshman, or in general, I tend to view his tumbling draft stock as a value, rather than a justified indictment, and historically guys like Paul Pierce, Caron Butler, and Drummond (and I should have seen that last year with Barnes) have backed up dumpster diving for value with those guys (and I still think PJIII could come through as well, though its definitely not there yet with him). This year Zeller, and Adams pre-combine, Muhammad and Tony Mitchell best represent that. Mitchell for now, is my best value selection of the draft, probably available if the mocks are right, somewhere between 14-25 slots lower than he was valued as recently as November.

No I didn't post on here then. I joined in January or February and this is my only account. I lurked a little bit before I joined. The draft thread here compelled me join, I'm a junkie for draft talk and this is the best wizards draft community out there.

I think years of high picks have honed the fan base into expert draftniks.

I agree with you that you can find great value in highly touted guys who slide after disappointing college careers. But it depends on why they dropped. In the case of PJIII, I think his drop was deserved. All the natural skills and athleticism you could want, which was the source of his high H.S. recruiting rankings, but I thought he was a tin man and his time at Baylor revealed that. There were signs of it back in H.S., his H.S. teams apparently underachieved, which I think should be a red flag for any big time NBA bound recruit.

I don't know about Mitchell. If you watch the DX video on him this year it's pretty damning. Just a lot of bad, low IQ, low motor play. Like JaVale and NY on their bad days. No doubt his team situation was toxic and contributed to some of his problems. But I think you can safely say he's not a self starter, among other things.

[nate33]

Good post deeptu. While I've been vocal in wanting to see Nene moved because of health reasons, the 2nd best option to me would be to bring Nene off the bench as the 3rd big capable of playing either position. At this stage of his career, Nene can make a living feasting off of backup quality talent, much like he did earlier this past season before seeing his numbers take a hit once he became a starter again. I think it's essential that we acquire a starting PF for the reasons you stated along with the fact I don't think Nene is an 82 game, 30+ minute player anymore.

It's much like the situation at backup PG. Sure, you could go into the season with A.J. Price, but that means lessons weren't learned from last year's 4-28 debacle. Same with Nene, you could add a backup 3pt specialist believing that Okafor & Nene will do the heaving lifting next season, but you'll likely end up depending on that specialist or Ernie's Kids to hold the fort down for large periods of time.

Yup. I'm of a like mindset. Start Okafor. Bring Nene off the bench to handle the backup center minutes with some modest overlap when both bigs are on the court together. Wall would be resting for most of the time that Nene is in, which works well because we can run the offense through Nene while he is being covered by backups and tired starters.

We just need an offensive-minded PF to cover the 40 or so minutes when only one of Nene/Okafor are in the game. A youngish veteran like Millsap, Ilyasova or Ryan Anderson would be great. It doesn't have to be a superstar, just a good shooter and competent offense player who doesn't kill us on defense.

Maybe Bennett or Zeller can do it too.

[nate33]

Fair enough. I should have been more precise in saying "the CHANCE of a pekovic/vucevic pickup in Adams/Len at the expense of..."

Of course a straight up trade of the 3rd for pek or vucevic would be a no-brainer rather than "almost makes it worth it."

Since Pekovic is a restricted free agent, would it even theoretically be possible for Minnesota to trade him to us prior, during, or immediately after the draft for the 3rd pick? My gut tells me they wouldn't be able to trade him, but who knows?

No. Teams can't trade someone not signed to a contract and free agents can't sign contracts until after July 1st.

Right. So the player wouldn't have the ability to negotiate the contract while the picks are being made. We wouldn't want to risk picking, say, McLemore for Minnesota and then having Pekovic blow up the whole deal by taking more money to play in Atlanta.

[The Consiglieri]

I think you wait to see Cousins 4th year production before you make a move on him. Right now his stats are just so bad in every conceivable metric. Getting an offensive focused big who is terribly inefficient offensively would be a dumb contract to take on, nevermind the fact that his teammates always hate him.

I understand why people want him though. His flat out per game stats are nice but once efficiency and usage come into the picture I wouldn't touch him with a 10 foot pole.

Yeah, I agree, DF.

I think the longer the Wizards wait the better for any Cousins trade. Okafor is a solid veteran on an expiring deal who can become a very valuable trade asset. So is Ariza. The best thing would probably be to wait because other deals are possible.

I like Cousins but the most I would.want is to swap picks and give Seraphin, and to possibly absorb Salmons' bad contract. I would not give up a lottery pick because Cousins needs a new deal and as much as I like him there certainly are risks with him,

At the end of the day, it's just not an intelligent way of utilizing assets. If we love him, go after him as a free agent, don't pawn off a top pick, and mega money as well for him.

And yes, while I hated the Okariza deal and still do, and do not think it's justifiable, it wasn't a disaster on the scale or anywhere near the scale of the '09 draft boondoggle. They actually contributed well above expectation this past year, and have become valuable trade chips not simply because of the expirings, but also because they both arrested their free fall's and market value of their services. Both players turned in seasons above expectations in a tough enviornment. We might be able to swing a nice deal for them now, or during the season, ti's disappoint ernie seems too stupid to see this, maybe he just views it as something worth exploring during next season's trade deadline, but it's hard to imagine their value being higher than now. I'd sell them now for assets while we still can, and see what we have in Seraphin next year.

[nate33]

At the end of the day, it's just not an intelligent way of utilizing assets. If we love him, go after him as a free agent, don't pawn off a top pick, and mega money as well for him.

It's not quite that simple because he will be a RFA. Sacramento will have the right to match any offer. That said, I tend to agree with you that we shouldn't be throwing in the kitchen sink right now in an attempt to acquire Cousins. If we wait, there's a chance he matures and prices himself out of the market, but there's also a chance that he becomes an even bigger distraction in Sacramento to the point where they won't want to keep him. At that point, assuming he have the cap room to sign him next summer, we will be in good position to negotiate a fire sale price to acquire him at the Trade Deadline.

[DCZards]

Looking at the John Wall Appreciation Thread and the Amazingly Sucky John Wall thread from February, I really don't see many calls for his immediate trade. What I do see is a lot of worried but clear analysis of the way his game looked prior to his surge in March. With the benefit of hindsight, I think that analysis and worry holds up very well. Even Jonathan Joseph, who seemed certain that Wall would never improve, repeatedly said that he hoped Wall improved, and I think will acknowledge his improvement.

It kind of feels like perhaps some loyal John Wall supporters have created from memory, out of the significant, quite varied, and largely legitimate criticisms of John Wall's game earlier in the season, a huge and unified (and in fact never really existing) TRADE JOHN WALL NOW movement. This is as great a revisionism regarding John Wall as any other I'm seeing.

There was certainly no large (or majority) "trade Wall movement" but there was a lot of handwringing by impatient posters who somehow expected Wall to come off an injury and more than 4 months of inactivity and not skip a beat. That was unrealistic.

Then when Wall did start playing better people had this crazy notion that he had somehow "hit a switch" and overnight his game had improved dramatically when, in reality, his improvement was largely the result of getting in better playing shape and developing an improved comfort level and cohesion playing with guys like Beal, Ariza, Webster and Okafor, who Wall had never, ever played with prior to early January.

I don't think it is quite that simple. Wall's jumper had been a train wreck his first two seasons and then all of a sudden he starts making threes and also starts hitting those pullup 2s off the dribble.

You're right it's not that simple. Once Wall got in better shape (especially his legs) we began to see the work on his shot that he reportedly put in during the offseason start to pay off. I certainly don't think Wall simply ate his Wheaties one morning and suddenly became a better shooter...as some have suggested.

Edit to Add: After he began making shots, John's confidence skyrocketed...and the rest is history.

[dobrojim]

Good post deeptu. While I've been vocal in wanting to see Nene moved because of health reasons, the 2nd best option to me would be to bring Nene off the bench as the 3rd big capable of playing either position. At this stage of his career, Nene can make a living feasting off of backup quality talent, much like he did earlier this past season before seeing his numbers take a hit once he became a starter again. I think it's essential that we acquire a starting PF for the reasons you stated along with the fact I don't think Nene is an 82 game, 30+ minute player anymore.

It's much like the situation at backup PG. Sure, you could go into the season with A.J. Price, but that means lessons weren't learned from last year's 4-28 debacle. Same with Nene, you could add a backup 3pt specialist believing that Okafor & Nene will do the heaving lifting next season, but you'll likely end up depending on that specialist or Ernie's Kids to hold the fort down for large periods of time.

Really like much of what you post Dat but I don't get why you or others continually
blame Price for the 4-28. Seems to me this line of thinking ignores the simple fact
that Price broke his hand and didn't get back until one game before Wall came back.
At that point, missing our starting and backup PG, we were just awful at the 1, worst the league
awful. But it wasn't Price's fault unless you blame him for getting hurt and I think you're
smarter than that. The 2 months of the season was a total trainwreck for a whole bunch
of reasons:

Wall - out
Nene - out, then rounding back into shape
Okafor - figuring out a new team
Ariza - DItto Okafor - also Ariza was hurt (missed several weeks)
Price - hurt
Beal - 19 yo rook getting his first taste of the league (hurt too)

that's 6 of our top 8-9 players

While it would always be helpful to upgrade talent at every position, Price is
an adequate backup. Backup 1 shouldn't be that big of a priority for us, at least
not compared to other positions.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

I haven't read anything saying Wall wants us to draft a specfic player. I wouldn't worry about what Wall wants at this stage, although he's right about wanting a stretch 4 and a 3rd guard.

The only 4 who has legitimately shown stretch 4 ability is Bennett, so he may as well have simply said it.

I'm starting to think he might be the pick. That in combination with Ernies comments about how he may have chosen the guy at 3 that may have been available at 8, Bennett falls right in line with his and Walls comments.

Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar. I don't think Wall has a vested interest in an individual; I think he wants a forward he can pick and pop with. That could be Bennett. But it could also be Zeller or Olynyk or Porter or Ilyasova of Carl Landry.

Wall probably wants Otto Porter, but the again Webster and Ariza held it down at SF .

I have a hard time seeing Olynyk not being a great fit.

If Zeller in fact wows from the perimeter, he will be a nice fit.

[The Consiglieri]

Mea culpas when due, I would have entertained Greg Monroe trades up until January.

Hell, I'd pull the trigger on #3 + Nene + filler for Monroe + 8 trades right now. I really liked Monroe going into the draft and even moreso now.

Great job calling Monroe. He was super underrated in that draft. I missed on him and Hibbert to some extent (I had them rated, but never in a million years thought they'd be as good as they were).

Yeah, reading the old threads is interesting. As many hits as busts predictions.

Richard Hendrix ?

In the same post someone will talk about Serge Ibaka and how good he could be and then also say they want Joe Alexander

Bill Walker was getting some love.

Its like reading your horoscope. There is enough there to pick out as home runs if you ignore some stuff.

A professional GM has to do all of that on the record. There are no, oh I didn't really mean that post, only pay attention to this one. And then their moves have to play in real games with other players. And those teams have records that then determine the next draft position.

It is a little different with you are doing all this stuff with live bullets.

But those are reasonable misses, NBA GM's consistently miss a vast majority of 2nd rounders picked. Some of this isn't there fault, it's not as if there's 20 guys in every second round that can play, and you just have to pick the right ones, usually it's that there's only 2-8 in any given second round, a very small minority, probably 6-20% make it, so you're already against the odds, and as such, I don't give us a lot of stick for mixing on 2nd rounder flyers, hell 2nd rounder flyers are normally the bulk of draft convo in November-February when folks are turning over rocks looking for that one hidden crab metaphorically speaking, that's a player in the league. There's a lot of rocks w/nothing underneath them. So while I hate what Ernie does when he sells or gives away 2nd rounders for nothing (why not simply deal it for a future 2, I dont understand the constant pick for money deal which smacks of lazyness, and ineptitude), I do recognize that it's difficult.

The issue with E.G. is that he bungled a 5th overall and a 6th overall pick in 2 of our first four rebuild drafts that were huge assets. In any kind of job, screwing the pooch completely on 2 of your 4 most important projects will get you fired, hell one screw up normally does. He's gotten a mulligan twice, when those mulligans are for mistakes that likely cost us years of development, and a huge portion of our opportunity to build a potential champion. The mistake is compounded when it's one that's involving stupidity rather than bad luck. A lot of busts are simply bad luck, if there's a consensus on a player, and you miss, I'm not gonna rip you for it. I don't rip the Kwame pick in '01 as a stupid pick because it wasn't, the player was flawed, not the scouting report, Kwame was rated #1 or #2 by every scout, or source I ever heard quoted. it just didn't work out, similarly there was Evan Turner during the Wall draft in '10, I'm not ripping the sixers for a mistake almost everyone else would have made too. What I rip are decisions that are inherently stupid or flawed, where you really should have known better and the '09 boondoggle and the '11 pick fit that, though to a slightly lesser extent.

That's where this board has the better track record. There were a minority of "reload don't rebuild" posters in '09 that justified the horrible trade at the time, and even for a long time afterwards, but most were horrified, even after the lottery misfortune sent us tumbling down into lesser territory (though truth be told, isn't curry at this point, the best player from that draft?). The vast majority of this board also wanted no part of Vesely in '11, and were right about that, though admittedly mediocre at what they did want (I remember a lot of Morris love at the time, Marcus, which seemed inexplicable to me, the penultimate example of a talent that would not translate to the next level). Quite a few loved Faried and Leonard, and they were right .

[Dat2U]

Good post deeptu. While I've been vocal in wanting to see Nene moved because of health reasons, the 2nd best option to me would be to bring Nene off the bench as the 3rd big capable of playing either position. At this stage of his career, Nene can make a living feasting off of backup quality talent, much like he did earlier this past season before seeing his numbers take a hit once he became a starter again. I think it's essential that we acquire a starting PF for the reasons you stated along with the fact I don't think Nene is an 82 game, 30+ minute player anymore.

It's much like the situation at backup PG. Sure, you could go into the season with A.J. Price, but that means lessons weren't learned from last year's 4-28 debacle. Same with Nene, you could add a backup 3pt specialist believing that Okafor & Nene will do the heaving lifting next season, but you'll likely end up depending on that specialist or Ernie's Kids to hold the fort down for large periods of time.

Really like much of what you post Dat but I don't get why you or others continually
blame Price for the 4-28. Seems to me this line of thinking ignores the simple fact
that Price broke his hand and didn't get back until one game before Wall came back.
At that point, missing our starting and backup PG, we were just awful at the 1, worst the league
awful. But it wasn't Price's fault unless you blame him for getting hurt and I think you're
smarter than that. The 2 months of the season was a total trainwreck for a whole bunch
of reasons:

Wall - out
Nene - out, then rounding back into shape
Okafor - figuring out a new team
Ariza - DItto Okafor - also Ariza was hurt (missed several weeks)
Price - hurt
Beal - 19 yo rook getting his first taste of the league (hurt too)

that's 6 of our top 8-9 players

While it would always be helpful to upgrade talent at every position, Price is
an adequate backup. Backup 1 shouldn't be that big of a priority for us, at least
not compared to other positions.

I'm not putting complete blame on Price for the 4-28 start. I think he did an adequate job for the role he was brought in for, to be a 10-12 minute backup. Unfortunately, when your only a 10-12 minute backup type of player and you get pressed into longer duty, sh*t is going to hit the fan.

What I'm saying is we need more than a 10-12 minute backup at PG. We need a legit 3rd guard. We need a guy, where if anything happens to Wall or Beal, he can come in and do a respectable job without the team and the offense completely falling apart. Price or Temple for that matter aren't qualified for this role. I remember on many ocassions, even when Wall was healthy, where the offense would come to a complete halt when Price was running the show. Price is a guy you have for depth purposes, not to be a key contributor. If we have to count on Price as a rotation player, we're taking the very same risk that we took last year when we signed Price to be Wall's main backup.