Official 2013 Draft Thread - Part VII

[SUPERBALLMAN]

I don't know about Porter's decision to only work out for the top 3 teams. That could come back to haunt him.

What if Len & Dipo jump into the top 3? Porter could easily drop to 5 or 6, or lower.

[closg00]

Didn't you say -- yesterday! -- that at this point there was no reason to write more than a 1-or-2-sentence post about this draft?

That said, you make some -- to me -- odd points. I've highlighted some of them above.

1. To start with you seem to think the Wizards are a "good" team (lets just define that as "above average" -- can't get more generous than that can you?). We went .500 in the period when you seem to think we'd "turned a corner." We're not a good team. We are -- with all our personnel -- an average team. That's what you want to consolidate?

2. Webster is not a Wizard. Webster is an unrestricted free agent. Please hear this clearly. Martell Webster is not part of the Washington Wizards squad. He's not on the team. Will we sign him? Sure, if we give him a deal as good as anyone else offers (ok maybe just almost as good), he might well be on the team. But that might not happen.

3. You keep including Okafor and Ariza in our "core." Assuming Trevor picks up his option (perhaps he's already done so), we'll have him this year. At that point he will be an unrestricted free agent. You can't project the future of the team w/ him as a key piece, because you don't know if he'll be around.

4. Okafor, who as a Wizard had his best season in several years, is signed for the coming year. At the end of the year, he is an unrestricted free agent. We have no option, no nothing. As with Ariza, you can't project based on him.

5. We have three good players -- three not seven -- that we know we'll have for 2014-15:

a. Wall (if he demonstrates in a full season that he really has made the jump he certainly seemed to have made),

b. Beal (I have less doubt about his future than Wall's), and

c. Nene, who has had repeated injury problems the last few years. You can deny that all you want, but... why would you? Maybe he'll be able to average 30+ minutes in 60+ games, but if so it'll be the first time in many years. Nene has played more than 2500 minutes in only 2 seasons since his 2d year! The last time was 4 years ago.

Anyone who thinks the Wizards are in some kind "stand pat" or "consolidate" place is dreaming.

PIF

I am well aware of all those things you posted so you could have saved yourself some time to just assume that.

Also, as for how good they were, its all a matter of what you focus on. When Wall, Beal and Nene all started, they were very good. When all three were simple healthy enough to play, they were good. And along the way, they took down just about every playoff team. They beat the best of the best and the tier under that.

But their final record and small sample size of having everyone healthy will always be the counter argument to that. But for me, that is backward thinking. Wall isn't likely to miss the start of the season. He is much more likely to be the player we saw once he found his jumper. Actually, I expect him to had added even more. Beal is a question to remain healthy, but when healthy, Beal is a full on beast. I expect him to have better ball handling which means he can create more. And I expect he is really focused on his body and his ankles this offseason. I expect two full on beast in those two next year. Top 5 at their positions. Thats a ton right there along. You add Nene and Okafor to that group and sorry, thats a solid core in anyones book. Now add Trevor A, he isn't opting out. And Webster is loves the team and wants to be here. Sorry, but that is a legit core to a team.

As for consolidating, that is an option at PF if they go with Zeller. They would need to clean up on isle 5 meaning Singleton and Ves need to go. Zeller can already do everything you would hope Ves could do if he got better. Taking him would mean you busted with the #6 in 2011, but we already know that. I think Ves can still redeem himself, but its likely going to take two more years and that means on another team. Unless he magically finds a jumper like Wall and Beal did. Anything is possible.

As for Webster, he loves it here. As long as they don't jam up the rotations at his position and they want him, he is as much as already signed. He has made that more then clear.

As for how good they are when healthy, if you don't see it you don't see it.

Wall, Beal, Webster, Trevor A, Nene and Okafor is a very legit group. Add better quality backing up at SG, PF and C and they would clearly be at least a 2nd round team. And that about as far as you can project most teams. Even SA doesn't win it all every year. Actually its been 5 years since they made it to the finals.

You add a VO, Zeller or maybe a Len or Noel, and that group looks even better.

Assuming Trevor A is gone is not something I am willing to do. I see no reason he wouldn't stick around if they make some serious playoff noise next year with a team that is going to be there again the year after.

Why did you delete that post Hands, that post was HOF candidate for-sure

[nate33]

Ok Nate.

Back to the future.

You really liked Burke as the pick before and I was saying CJM.

Now while I still like CJM, he has fallen out of the discussion. I still think he would be a great addition, but maybe down draft a little farther.

So now its down to Burke vs VO. Why wouldn't either of these two be the best pick.

I liked Burke when we were looking at a 7/8 pick. I could live with 25 mpg 6th man with the 7 pick, but I just can't condone it at #3. With the #3, we have to come away with a full time starter.

[DCZards]

I liked Burke when we were looking at a 7/8 pick. I could live with 25 mpg 6th man with the 7 pick, but I just can't condone it at #3. With the #3, we have to come away with a full time starter.

Agreed. I think it would be a mistake to draft a PG or SG with the #3 pick...someone who would more than likely have to always come off the bench. With Wall and Beal eating up most of the minutes, I just don't see another PG or SG getting enough PT to justify taking them with the #3 pick.

[Rafael122]

Noel up to 218 pounds, great news, he keeps giving the Cavs a reason not to draft him.

Thats close to his playing weight at Kentucky isn't it? Wasn't he 6 lbs less a month ago? Assuming he adds 12 more he wouldn't be at a terrible position at 230 lbs in a few months.

He was listed as 228 in college, so who knows. I think him losing weight was blown out of proportion. You tear a knee the last thing you would do is gain weight and add any more stress to the knee. I wouldn't be surprised if he's at 230-235 by December, he'd still need to add another 15-20 pounds after that though.

[sfam]

I think a case can be made that Bennett's inside-outside scoring potential is unique in this draft, and perhaps rare in the league. That said, he clearly has enough concerns that I see why people would shy away from him. He really does have to kick it up a notch in terms of maturity.

If you want to talk about inside/outside game, how about we look at 3 pointers vs FTs?

http://www.basketball-reference.com/pla ... rder_by=ws

I think Porter has a better chance of making that list than Bennett. (Take it in the spirit it's intended! I don't mean to consistently butt heads with the Benneteers but the Porterians have to have their voice heard too.)

To be clear, I'm not in the anti-Porter camp, I'm in the pro-Bennett camp. If we draft Porter, I won't be crushed, found crying in the gutter with an empty 12 pack of natty light. That said, I think Bennett easily makes more 3s and FTs combined than Porter, just as Porter clearly beats Bennett on wide open 2s, assists and steals (although probably not on blocks and RBs).

[sfam]

Both of you are pretending there wasn't a reason why Denver unloaded Nene as-quickly as possible after re-signing him. Denver probably knew about his foot problems.

I do that trade 10 times out of 10. Getting rid of McGee was addition by substration. That Nene is still a stellar player when healthy is just gravy.

[sfam]

Ok Nate.

Back to the future.

You really liked Burke as the pick before and I was saying CJM.

Now while I still like CJM, he has fallen out of the discussion. I still think he would be a great addition, but maybe down draft a little farther.

So now its down to Burke vs VO. Why wouldn't either of these two be the best pick.

I liked Burke when we were looking at a 7/8 pick. I could live with 25 mpg 6th man with the 7 pick, but I just can't condone it at #3. With the #3, we have to come away with a full time starter.

That sort of eliminates VO for you as well then, right?

[sfam]

Noel up to 218 pounds, great news, he keeps giving the Cavs a reason not to draft him.

Thats close to his playing weight at Kentucky isn't it? Wasn't he 6 lbs less a month ago? Assuming he adds 12 more he wouldn't be at a terrible position at 230 lbs in a few months.

He was listed as 228 in college, so who knows. I think him losing weight was blown out of proportion. You tear a knee the last thing you would do is gain weight and add any more stress to the knee. I wouldn't be surprised if he's at 230-235 by December, he'd still need to add another 15-20 pounds after that though.

Agreed. You might be worried about Noel for injury reasons, but the weight concern has been pretty well debunked at this point. Noel's weight will be just fine.

[stevemcqueen1]

Ok Nate.

Back to the future.

You really liked Burke as the pick before and I was saying CJM.

Now while I still like CJM, he has fallen out of the discussion. I still think he would be a great addition, but maybe down draft a little farther.

So now its down to Burke vs VO. Why wouldn't either of these two be the best pick.

I liked Burke when we were looking at a 7/8 pick. I could live with 25 mpg 6th man with the 7 pick, but I just can't condone it at #3. With the #3, we have to come away with a full time starter.

I agree. If you don't get a starter then it needs to be a Harden or Manu like 6th man--playing starter's minutes off the bench.

[stevemcqueen1]

I posted this on another forum:

How SA was built:

Tim Duncan - 1st overall in 1997.
Tony Parker - Last pick of the first round in 2001, everyone passed on him but SA.
Manu Ginobli - Second to last pick of the 99 draft, Almost everyone passed over him twice.
Gary Neal - undrafted, signed off the scrap heap from Spain.
Danny Green - former second rounder, scrap heap FA acquisition, then cut, played in the D League and in Slovenia, scrap heap acquisition again.
Kawhi Leonard - 15th pick
Tiago Splitter - 28th overall pick in 2007, stashed in Europe for three years before he came over to the NBA.
Cory Joseph - 29th overall pick.
Boris Diaw - Got cut from the Bobcats, picked up off the scrap heap
Bonner - former second rounder acquired for crap and cash.
Patty Mills - former late second rounder and D leaguer, picked up off the scrap heap after playing in Australia and China the previous two years.
DeJuan Blair - 37th pick.
Nando DeColo - 53rd overall pick.
Tracy McGrady - signed off the street after spending the year in China about a week before the season ended.
Aron Baynes - undrafted, signed off the scrap heap out of Slovenia.

The Spurs have just two lottery picks on their roster, and they were both drafted in 1997 . I seriously doubt there is another team out there with just two lotto picks on it. I seriously doubt any other team even comes close to having such a low cumulative draft position.

With the exception of Duncan, these are literally players nobody else wanted when the Spurs snatched them up. And he's been damn near out to pasture for years. It's unbelievable. This hodgepodge of also-rans would never be any good at all for any other organization. There is some sort of authentic genius cobbling this group of misfits together into a perennial .70% winner. Popovich and whoever in the hell their GM is I suppose.

Ruzious, you need to change your signature. The Spurs guys are the ones playing Star Trek chess. Everyone else, including Daryl Morey, seems to be playing checkers.

[closg00]

Excellent post Steve

[popper]

Everything sucks.

[hands11]

Ok Nate.

Back to the future.

You really liked Burke as the pick before and I was saying CJM.

Now while I still like CJM, he has fallen out of the discussion. I still think he would be a great addition, but maybe down draft a little farther.

So now its down to Burke vs VO. Why wouldn't either of these two be the best pick.

I liked Burke when we were looking at a 7/8 pick. I could live with 25 mpg 6th man with the 7 pick, but I just can't condone it at #3. With the #3, we have to come away with a full time starter.

I see as a value now in production and making the 2nd line players all better, and value later if you move him. Right now, we don't need a full time starter. We are already 6 deep. Burke would make then 7 deep.

And 25 minutes a game from a rookie isn't bad at all. Specially when during the 82 game season most the Wizards starters aren't going to get any more then 30 minutes a game anyway. The goal is to win and be fresh for the playoffs. EFJ gone. We aren't playing key players 40 minutes a game so they break down and are burned out come the playoffs. Those days are over.

48x2=96 / 3 = 32

So where is the problem ? Specially if you get him on a trade down and pick up future/more picks.

Burke is a proven winner. Dude gets it done.

Lots of these other players people are interested are interesting. They have some talent. But what have they won except for Burke, VO and Zeller.

After that when I get into potential and talent, McLemore and Len slip in the list. But both will take more time.

Otto is fine, but I think we can do better.

[gambitx777]

]

My board is

Burke/VO neck and neck
Zeller

These are you proven winners. All have it above the neck. All are very coachable. All have NBA skills and will produce right away.

Then McLemore because he is such a pure shooter and very athletic. He is also a good kid. But he need handles and more Alpha dog in him. But I can see him growing in those areas in time if he lands on the right team that has great mentors and coaching to help bring it out of him. He will have the skill to contribute day one, but his mind is is 3 year project. VO and Burk have that mind day 1. I think Zeller does also, but in a different way.

Otto is a nice piece, but not better then the above choices. He is just a notch below this other choices. A great pick for a team like Charlotte if they didn't have MKG or PHX.

Len and Noel fail the test because of injuries and because they are not NBA developed enough. Sorry, not taking the risk. You can get bigs elsewhere for what you need in a big these days. Not having the hands on the evaluate then like a real GM would. And since they are injured, you can't evaluate them.

Bennet fails on injuries, defense, and other red flags.

Noel, Len, Bennett and Otto are now off my board. Time to start narrowing this down.

VO, Burke, Zeller, McLemore are what I have left. I would only draft plays from the "off my list list" if I could trade down using them and I pick up a valuable assets. McLemore is interesting because of his his shooting skill and how I think he and Beal would get along. Beal could help make him a much better player, then they can trade him down the road after getting what they needed from him. How awesome is Beal. He is so mature that you can actually count on his to help other young players already.

Just put that in perspective for a moment. We drafted Wall and Beal in a 3 year time period. That is way you tank for a rebuild.

I'm willing to miss on Noel and Len. The risk isn't worth it.

I agree and disagree with you.

Let me clarify, As i have said many times in the last few weeks, if Porter and len are gone, I would consider trading the pick, So 3 on is just who i think we take if they are not there and we keep the pick, Bennett is falling after i have seen some interview stuff on him. But I still feel that we should go for Porter or Len,

Len, IMO is not as big of a risk as Noel. Lens injury is not as bad or as lingering, And I think Len is just a better player than Noel. Hes better offensively, he has better size and I believe is is a higher quality defender. Because where as Noel becomes a great defender by being a better athlete than most at the college level, Len becomes a great defender by being a great defender, He knows how to defend, he just has the mental quickness to do it and he understands how to do it. I think Noel will be exposed at the next level, I don't think Len will suffer as much,

Porter, again Great defender and I do not think his offensive problems are as bad as some say. I see them as fixable, and some one mentioned his shot, well, Shawn Marion did not have a conventional shot, but it worked. so I think Porter will be fine.

Also Porter and Len fix problems in the line up. Len allows us to not play kevin at C, because he is a better PF when he plays like he should. It also keeps us from having to give minutes to ves. Len gives us a center of the future and makes us better as a team in several different ways.
So does porter, he not only gives us a 3 of the future to pair with wall and beal, but he lets us move webster to back up beal, which he can, and lets us play Singleton at the 4 since there will be no minutes at the 3, who IMO is better as a 4 due to his rebounding and I like him better as a 4 than a 3

but If they are both gone I think we should trade. I posted a trade with Minny, I think you saw it,
#9,#26, Shved, Berea, for Jan, Chris, Booker, #3
Something like that helps the team. more than adding Maclemore or Noel would.
We get solid Guard Depth, plus we are getting Thomas this year, and lets hope hes not bad.
With 9, we can take Olynyk, who should develop in to a nice starting 4, and with our three later picks we can add depth, James Ennis and Mouhamadou Jaiteh, would be on the top of my wish list.

I don't like Zeller, and Maclemore and Oladipo make be good talented players and help our depth a little bit but they dont help out line up problems and they don't help our depth as much as a trade down would.

So to clarify,
Porter
Len
Trade Down,

This is just my opinion , but that's how I see it.

[Wizardspride]

Fwiw, the Wiz will visit Oladipo in Bowie, MD.

[hands11]

I posted this on another forum:

How SA was built:

Tim Duncan - 1st overall in 1997.
Tony Parker - Last pick of the first round in 2001, everyone passed on him but SA.
Manu Ginobli - Second to last pick of the 99 draft, Almost everyone passed over him twice.
Gary Neal - undrafted, signed off the scrap heap from Spain.
Danny Green - former second rounder, scrap heap FA acquisition, then cut, played in the D League and in Slovenia, scrap heap acquisition again.
Kawhi Leonard - 15th pick
Tiago Splitter - 28th overall pick in 2007, stashed in Europe for three years before he came over to the NBA.
Cory Joseph - 29th overall pick.
Boris Diaw - Got cut from the Bobcats, picked up off the scrap heap
Bonner - former second rounder acquired for crap and cash.
Patty Mills - former late second rounder and D leaguer, picked up off the scrap heap after playing in Australia and China the previous two years.
DeJuan Blair - 37th pick.
Nando DeColo - 53rd overall pick.
Tracy McGrady - signed off the street after spending the year in China about a week before the season ended.
Aron Baynes - undrafted, signed off the scrap heap out of Slovenia.

The Spurs have just two lottery picks on their roster, and they were both drafted in 1997 . I seriously doubt there is another team out there with just two lotto picks on it. I seriously doubt any other team even comes close to having such a low cumulative draft position.

With the exception of Duncan, these are literally players nobody else wanted when the Spurs snatched them up. And he's been damn near out to pasture for years. It's unbelievable. This hodgepodge of also-rans would never be any good at all for any other organization. There is some sort of authentic genius cobbling this group of misfits together into a perennial .70% winner. Popovich and whoever in the hell their GM is I suppose.

Ruzious, you need to change your signature. The Spurs guys are the ones playing Star Trek chess. Everyone else, including Daryl Morey, seems to be playing checkers.

I totally agree and have posted stuff like that in the past. There is gold out there is you are looking hard enough. But a lot of that also has to do with how they keep players and groom them.

Its a TEAM

Its little things that don't seem all that big a deal like if the Wizards would have resigned Mason. Now I don't think Mason would have made a world of difference last year but he should have been on the team one more year at least. Its part of a leadership stability thing. Mason would have helped Beal and he would have helped the team transition at the beginning of the season when they couldn't get a win.

And look what they did with Green. He was all over the place. But they brought him back.

This is why you don't go shipping off Okafor, Nene, Trevor A or let Webster slip out of your hands.

The grass of high draft pick young pups is not always greener. A good team needs stability. Now Duncan is a big part of that, but SA was good even before Duncan. But adding him was pure gold. Then they groomed Parker from there. Now they are grooming Lenard.

Its a total system.

[sfam]

I posted this on another forum:

How SA was built:

Tim Duncan - 1st overall in 1997.
Tony Parker - Last pick of the first round in 2001, everyone passed on him but SA.
Manu Ginobli - Second to last pick of the 99 draft, Almost everyone passed over him twice.
Gary Neal - undrafted, signed off the scrap heap from Spain.
Danny Green - former second rounder, scrap heap FA acquisition, then cut, played in the D League and in Slovenia, scrap heap acquisition again.
Kawhi Leonard - 15th pick
Tiago Splitter - 28th overall pick in 2007, stashed in Europe for three years before he came over to the NBA.
Cory Joseph - 29th overall pick.
Boris Diaw - Got cut from the Bobcats, picked up off the scrap heap
Bonner - former second rounder acquired for crap and cash.
Patty Mills - former late second rounder and D leaguer, picked up off the scrap heap after playing in Australia and China the previous two years.
DeJuan Blair - 37th pick.
Nando DeColo - 53rd overall pick.
Tracy McGrady - signed off the street after spending the year in China about a week before the season ended.
Aron Baynes - undrafted, signed off the scrap heap out of Slovenia.

The Spurs have just two lottery picks on their roster, and they were both drafted in 1997 . I seriously doubt there is another team out there with just two lotto picks on it. I seriously doubt any other team even comes close to having such a low cumulative draft position.

With the exception of Duncan, these are literally players nobody else wanted when the Spurs snatched them up. And he's been damn near out to pasture for years. It's unbelievable. This hodgepodge of also-rans would never be any good at all for any other organization. There is some sort of authentic genius cobbling this group of misfits together into a perennial .70% winner. Popovich and whoever in the hell their GM is I suppose.

Ruzious, you need to change your signature. The Spurs guys are the ones playing Star Trek chess. Everyone else, including Daryl Morey, seems to be playing checkers.

Terrific post, but because EG is still trying to understand the rules of checkers, I don't see how this relates to us. We dump late seconds, regularly miss on first round picks and generally find scrap when we look at the scrap heap. Sure, we've found the spare Webster or two, but its rare. Does anyone see this changing anytime soon?

[hands11]

I posted this on another forum:

How SA was built:

Tim Duncan - 1st overall in 1997.
Tony Parker - Last pick of the first round in 2001, everyone passed on him but SA.
Manu Ginobli - Second to last pick of the 99 draft, Almost everyone passed over him twice.
Gary Neal - undrafted, signed off the scrap heap from Spain.
Danny Green - former second rounder, scrap heap FA acquisition, then cut, played in the D League and in Slovenia, scrap heap acquisition again.
Kawhi Leonard - 15th pick
Tiago Splitter - 28th overall pick in 2007, stashed in Europe for three years before he came over to the NBA.
Cory Joseph - 29th overall pick.
Boris Diaw - Got cut from the Bobcats, picked up off the scrap heap
Bonner - former second rounder acquired for crap and cash.
Patty Mills - former late second rounder and D leaguer, picked up off the scrap heap after playing in Australia and China the previous two years.
DeJuan Blair - 37th pick.
Nando DeColo - 53rd overall pick.
Tracy McGrady - signed off the street after spending the year in China about a week before the season ended.
Aron Baynes - undrafted, signed off the scrap heap out of Slovenia.

The Spurs have just two lottery picks on their roster, and they were both drafted in 1997 . I seriously doubt there is another team out there with just two lotto picks on it. I seriously doubt any other team even comes close to having such a low cumulative draft position.

With the exception of Duncan, these are literally players nobody else wanted when the Spurs snatched them up. And he's been damn near out to pasture for years. It's unbelievable. This hodgepodge of also-rans would never be any good at all for any other organization. There is some sort of authentic genius cobbling this group of misfits together into a perennial .70% winner. Popovich and whoever in the hell their GM is I suppose.

Ruzious, you need to change your signature. The Spurs guys are the ones playing Star Trek chess. Everyone else, including Daryl Morey, seems to be playing checkers.

Terrific post, but because EG is still trying to understand the rules of checkers, I don't see how this relates to us. We dump late seconds, regularly miss on first round picks and generally find scrap when we look at the scrap heap. Sure, we've found the spare Webster or two, but its rare. Does anyone see this changing anytime soon?

Well considering the first name on that list in 1997 was Tim Duncan who came to a team that was already good and who was groomed by a HOF center, not sure we are really looking at apples and apples.

The Wizards franchise was a mess under Abe. Then Abe died, Gun gate happened and they blow the team up start from scratch.

Now that we have Wall and Beal, and they did find Webster. We also found Temple but no one wants to give him any mind. Temple is exactly the kind of player you find rotating onto a SA team. Actually, he did play for them twice. And if we let him go, I wouldn't be shocked to see him back there again.

Once the team starts winning and makes the playoffs, which is this next year, then they will become more stable and they will get more of these lower picks that can find a home in defined roles.

But they did find some craps. They just didn't keep them because they were still looking for core stars. The had Gee. They had James Singleton.

Well they have Wall and Beal now. Hopefully they draft smart this year. Bring on more winners.

[stevemcqueen1]

How do we duplicate SA's synergy for ourselves? How does it come about? I don't fully understand it. It's got to be one of the most powerful things in bball right now. They are one win away from winning a championship with what I'd guess is the lowest drafted team in the NBA by a sound margin.

The only things I can come up with are superb Xs and Os work, superb leadership, vision for how to get every guy into his proper role at the moment he's needed. And roster wide, a high degree of intelligence and heart.

Such playmaking ability too. The daring passes and superb shooting. Those guys are such big risk takers, but more often than not, it feels like they're sticking those passes and hitting those shots, against good D. Their chemistry is amazing. I hope we get some of that chemistry ourselves one day. I hope John Wall can be that kind of leader and chemistry inducing presence. I do think he's got the heart of a champion.