Political Roundtable Part XI

Interesting that Strassel puts part of the blame on Obama. And to say that Rs were elected to be the anti-Obamas. There is going to be lots written about the Clinton melt-down. But it really started in 2010.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/trumps-secret-weapon-obama-1478824383

Hillary Clinton’s defeat has left the Democratic Party a smoldering heap, its leaders pointing fingers over who or what to blame: James Comey. Robby Mook. Voter suppression. WikiLeaks. Sexism. Barely a mention has been made of the man who presided over one of the most epic party meltdowns in the country’s history: Mr. Obama.

In 2009, the president’s first year in office, the Democrats held 257 House seats, a majority that was geographically and politically diverse. After Tuesday the figure stands at 193, and fully one-third of these Democrats hail from three blue states: New York, California and Massachusetts.

dckingsfan · Post #368 » by **dckingsfan** » Fri Nov 11, 2016 1:15 pm

Zonk - you are right that there are elements of the Trump following that are racist.

It was kind of the mantra of the campaign... Rs are evils so obviously everyone is going to vote D. But it hasn't really played out that way, no?

Do you think the Ds need to rethink their strategy? Or are the good?

Post #369 » by **pineappleheadindc** » Fri Nov 11, 2016 1:28 pm

dckingsfan wrote:Zonk - you are right that there are elements of the Trump following that are racist.

It was kind of the mantra of the campaign... Rs are evils so obviously everyone is going to vote D. But it hasn't really played out that way, no?

Do you think the Ds need to rethink their strategy? Or are the good?

I think those are two unreleated questions, dckingsfan (racist elements of the Trump supporter community and Democratic party strategy).

I'm not sure about the political strategy thing, but I do note that the election should have been depressing for both Republicans and Democrats because of this one overarching fact:

-- Almost half of eligible voters did not cast a vote in the election. That's just pathetic.

It's unhealthy for our democracy that a quarter of eligible voters elect our President (Trump and Clinton essentially split the Presidential vote with Clinton barely outpolling Trump in the popular vote). It's interesting that for the second time in the last five Presidential cycles, the winner of the popular vote loses the Presidential election. I get that the framers envisioned this nation as a collection of states -- but it also feels like that violates the one man/one vote principle. But that is for another time.

Last factoid that y'all on the board may know either intuitively or already have this via other sources. Trump and Clinton were among that most unpopular nominees and it shows in the voting population.

-- Romney outperformed Trump in terms of popular vote. Which means Obama 2012 outpolled Trump by a mile.
-- The story isn't that there was a flock of voters TO Trump because they like him/GOP message or voted against Clinton. For Trump underperformed Romey2012 by 1.5M votes.
-- The story is that the Democratic base did not come out for Clinton, who trailed Obama 2012 by almost 7M votes. African American voters didn't turn out and it cost Clinton.

closg00 · Post #370 » by **closg00** » Fri Nov 11, 2016 1:41 pm

Yup, Trumps victory numbers are nothing to celebrate for the Republicans, a badly damaged Clinton still received more votes.

AFM · Post #371 » by **AFM** » Fri Nov 11, 2016 1:41 pm

Someone teach Zonk how to embed a photo?

dckingsfan · Post #372 » by **dckingsfan** » Fri Nov 11, 2016 1:51 pm

pineappleheadindc wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:Zonk - you are right that there are elements of the Trump following that are racist.

It was kind of the mantra of the campaign... Rs are evils so obviously everyone is going to vote D. But it hasn't really played out that way, no?

Do you think the Ds need to rethink their strategy? Or are the good?

I think those are two unreleated questions, dckingsfan (racist elements of the Trump supporter community and Democratic party strategy).

I'm not sure about the political strategy thing, but I do note that the election should have been depressing for both Republicans and Democrats because of this one overarching fact:

-- Almost half of eligible voters did not cast a vote in the election. That's just pathetic.

It's unhealthy for our democracy that a quarter of eligible voters elect our President (Trump and Clinton essentially split the Presidential vote with Clinton barely outpolling Trump in the popular vote). It's interesting that for the second time in the last five Presidential cycles, the winner of the popular vote loses the Presidential election. I get that the framers envisioned this nation as a collection of states -- but it also feels like that violates the one man/one vote principle. But that is for another time.

Last factoid that y'all on the board may know either intuitively or already have this via other sources. Trump and Clinton were among that most unpopular nominees and it shows in the voting population.

-- Romney outperformed Trump in terms of popular vote. Which means Obama 2012 outpolled Trump by a mile.
-- The story isn't that there was a flock of voters TO Trump because they like him/GOP message or voted against Clinton. For Trump underperformed Romey2012 by 1.5M votes.
-- The story is that the Democratic base did not come out for Clinton, who trailed Obama 2012 by almost 7M votes. African American voters didn't turn out and it cost Clinton.

Hey Pine, thanks for that - I guess I didn't make my point well.

You don't get people excited about the negative (in general). You have to excite your base if you want to win. The overall mantra of Clinton's campaign was - this guy is evil. But Hillary's message was meh.

And Zonk's posts kind of epitomizes that reaction. These guys are evil - how could anyone have voted for Trump.

And that message is costing Ds. Look at the Senate, the House and state Governorships. The D message hasn't been as inclusive as they think. And to look at who voted - well, 40%+ of the country don't see themselves as either R or D. They may vote one way or the other - but it still leaves only about 30% (each) of the country that are solidly behind either party.

Don't you think a better strategy is in order?

Post #373 » by **Zonkerbl** » Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:17 pm

There is a lot of racism in the Trump camp and that is undeniable. So don't come in here with your ONE counterexample and expect me to apologize, ermagerd we are guilty of bad things too!!! I might as well give up fighting against racism since we're all equally bad!!!!

Stupid argument. Sick of it.

And I've already said that the racism of Trump supporters is incidental. These are the same people who voted [the male] Clinton into office. No one has been representing them lately and Trump said, hey I'll do it! And since they were the only group with a candidate they truly liked they came out and voted, even the women, and Trump won. Good for him for political arbitrage, recognizing that a key group of constituents didn't have a political voice and addressing it. That's how democracy works.

NEVERTHELESS that doesn't affect my attitude towards racism. I'm against it and I will fight it no matter who the President is.

AFM · Post #374 » by **AFM** » Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:28 pm

I haven't seen any racism in the Trump camp. Care to post examples?

Post #375 » by **pineappleheadindc** » Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:47 pm

AFM wrote:I haven't seen any racism in the Trump camp. Care to post examples?

Good point -- need to separate some (unknown to me) quantity of Trump supporters to actual members of the Trump team of advisors, etc. They are separate groups of people IMO.

Post #376 » by **Zonkerbl** » Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:55 pm

Trump. Supporters. Don't be deliberately obtuse, makes you look dumb.

AFM · Post #377 » by **AFM** » Fri Nov 11, 2016 2:56 pm

pineappleheadindc wrote:
AFM wrote:I haven't seen any racism in the Trump camp. Care to post examples?

Good point -- need to separate some (unknown to me) quantity of Trump supporters to actual members of the Trump team of advisors, etc. They are separate groups of people IMO.

I was deliberately trolling Zonk, not trying to make some pedantic point :lol:

DCZards · Post #378 » by **DCZards** » Fri Nov 11, 2016 3:01 pm

pineappleheadindc wrote:
AFM wrote:I haven't seen any racism in the Trump camp. Care to post examples?

Good point -- need to separate some (unknown to me) quantity of Trump supporters to actual members of the Trump team of advisors, etc. They are separate groups of people IMO.

I don't need to find examples of racism in the Trump camp there are plenty of examples of it in Trump himself.

Housing discrimination by his company.
Central Park Five.
Birther issue.
Judge Curiel
All African Americans live in "ghettos" where they'll get shot if they step outside their door.
Stop and frisk.
Etc.

#andstillwerise

Post #379 » by **nate33** » Fri Nov 11, 2016 3:02 pm

pineappleheadindc wrote:-- Almost half of eligible voters did not cast a vote in the election. That's just pathetic.

I think this issue is overstated. In swing states, voter participation is between 65-70%. In Minnesota, it was 74%. Total voter turnout is low because so many states are not competitive.

Some people simply don't follow politics much and don't feel qualified to pick a candidate. That is their right, and I consider it an honorable choice. Personally, I often leave blank the ballot questions on some local judges and councilmen if I haven't taken the time to research them. Would it be better for me to just guess based on the sound of their name or their party affiliation?

Post #380 » by **pineappleheadindc** » Fri Nov 11, 2016 3:06 pm

dckingsfan wrote:
pineappleheadindc wrote:
dckingsfan wrote:Zonk - you are right that there are elements of the Trump following that are racist.

It was kind of the mantra of the campaign... Rs are evils so obviously everyone is going to vote D. But it hasn't really played out that way, no?

Do you think the Ds need to rethink their strategy? Or are the good?

I think those are two unreleated questions, dckingsfan (racist elements of the Trump supporter community and Democratic party strategy).

I'm not sure about the political strategy thing, but I do note that the election should have been depressing for both Republicans and Democrats because of this one overarching fact:

-- Almost half of eligible voters did not cast a vote in the election. That's just pathetic.

It's unhealthy for our democracy that a quarter of eligible voters elect our President (Trump and Clinton essentially split the Presidential vote with Clinton barely outpolling Trump in the popular vote). It's interesting that for the second time in the last five Presidential cycles, the winner of the popular vote loses the Presidential election. I get that the framers envisioned this nation as a collection of states -- but it also feels like that violates the one man/one vote principle. But that is for another time.

Last factoid that y'all on the board may know either intuitively or already have this via other sources. Trump and Clinton were among that most unpopular nominees and it shows in the voting population.

-- Romney outperformed Trump in terms of popular vote. Which means Obama 2012 outpolled Trump by a mile.
-- The story isn't that there was a flock of voters TO Trump because they like him/GOP message or voted against Clinton. For Trump underperformed Romey2012 by 1.5M votes.
-- The story is that the Democratic base did not come out for Clinton, who trailed Obama 2012 by almost 7M votes. African American voters didn't turn out and it cost Clinton.

Hey Pine, thanks for that - I guess I didn't make my point well.

You don't get people excited about the negative (in general). You have to excite your base if you want to win. The overall mantra of Clinton's campaign was - this guy is evil. But Hillary's message was meh.

And Zonk's posts kind of epitomizes that reaction. These guys are evil - how could anyone have voted for Trump.

And that message is costing Ds. Look at the Senate, the House and state Governorships. The D message hasn't been as inclusive as they think. And to look at who voted - well, 40%+ of the country don't see themselves as either R or D. They may vote one way or the other - but it still leaves only about 30% (each) of the country that are solidly behind either party.

Don't you think a better strategy is in order?

I'm not a strategy guy, so this is just my personal opinion. But you have a point that voters need something to vote FOR, not against.

I think Team Hillary was intellectually lazy in that the main circumstance of most of the (including conservative) pillars of political thought were aghast at Trump's candidacy -- this includes examples like conservative newspaper endorsements from newspapers who hadn't endorsed a Democrat in 50+ years, like the fact that every living ex-President (Democrat or Republican) voted against him, etc, etc. It's an easy thing to grasp on to such historically horrible things against Trump and think that it's the big stick to use.

Problem they didn't really understand is this: Nobody (figuratively) votes on anything except identity. Most people -- even though who delude themselves into thinking they're independent -- vote based on identifying on one Tribe or another (red vs blue). So it doesn't matter that Kasich, McCain, etc refuse to endorse Trump, when I'm in the voting booth, I'm pulling the level for my "team". Sucks for Clinton and Dems that the voters on their "team" are those who are least likely to vote.

I have two last separate, long posts about related topics you touch on. They are

1. The Democratic party is, IMO, a dysfunctional sham and Barack Obama's hubris over the last eight years lost this election for Team Blue.

2. Trump voters who think they were against the "establishment" are ignorant and have been shammed.

Probably coming tonight.