Official Trade Thread - Part XXIX

[hands11]

hands, we also don't have cap space for any of those PFs you want us to get

I am aware the the cap situation FAH...

I realize how it gets done isn't so clear. It would take a trade most likely. Which is why we are on the trade board.

We also have some TPE. There is also something called a stretch prevision.

Not sure anything will actually be done. Just pointing out some things that interest me to stimulate debate and see what people come up with.

[hands11]

Cousins is apparently available Twitterverse is exploding. Karl declared all players trade able, Cousins tweeting it's a "dirty business". He hasn't spoken to Karl since declared out for season.

Beal/Porter/Gortat/2017 pick for Cousins/McLemore? Done done done.

Cousins is overrated (his team has never sniffed the playoffs in the 5 years he's been there) and has attitude issues. That's giving up way too much for him.

I do wonder how you accurately value Cousins for some of the reason you posted.

No doubt he puts up stats and has a lot of talent.

Is he a Shaq in ORL type ?

Does him getting to many touches hurt a team ? Would he except less ?

Cousins is intriguing. Question is. Is he part of a title configuration ?

Interesting. Very interesting.

[hands11]

Wall is overrated compared to Cousins, who I think is underrated.

Attitude issues? He played on well Team USA after Wall and Beal got cut. He hasn't missed a game this season for disciplinary reasons. He's had consecutive triple doubles including assists (Great teammates pass the ball). He's had three straight games with more than 20 rebounds. (Rebounds require effort).

No. Some people repeat tired narratives because they are uninformed or determined to stay a hater. Cousins is an all star and a terrific player. People love Kevin Love and his team never sniffed playoffs.

Offer Nene, Pierce, this year's first and two future firsts. Keep Wall, Beal, and Porter. Keep Gortat.

Overnight the Wizards would be a 60-win team with that core.

If they could do it like that. That would be hard to pass up.

So you have Cousins playing with Gortat with Cousins at PF ?

Wall, Beal, Otto, Cousins, Gortat ?

[nuposse04]

I'd like to get cousins, but definitely for the right price.

Gortat+Beal+picks for Cousins+McLemore seems decent....but honestly, I don't know if I really believe it would lead to better long term success. I still think this roster with addition with a stretch 4 and combo guard could really improve things, via a trickle down effect.

Cousins is a helluva talent, but I don't know if he is a championship player, no one on our roster is either, but if Cousins was really worth all that, I'd like to see it have manifested in some team success by now.

[hands11]

Cousins is apparently available Twitterverse is exploding. Karl declared all players trade able, Cousins tweeting it's a "dirty business". He hasn't spoken to Karl since declared out for season.

Beal/Porter/Gortat/2017 pick for Cousins/McLemore? Done done done.

Too much.

I think you undervalue Porter and Gortat. I would keep Beal, too, if the Kings are adamant to make a deal.I say keep Beal and Porter. Give up 2015, 2017, and 2019 firsts.

Commit the next five seasons to Wall/Cousins. Give up picks but try to nurture the young talent.

Keep Gortat because Boogie Cousins can play a lot of minutes at PF and because Gortat is a calming influence.

(I would probably trade Beal before Porter since contract year is approaching.)

I agree. If they were to do this, I would feel a lot better about it if they could keep Gortat. He could help mentor Boogie.

So you think a Boogie/Gortat front court would work ?

I'm trying to visualize this. So Boogie is going to stretch the floor while Gortat is out there with him then play center when Gortat is out ? I know Boogie has some range. Just wounding how much of that we would want him to do.

Its like a version of the Nene/Gortat line up only Boogie is young, rebounds, can make FTs

Boogie by distance
http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/c/couside01.html

I guess even if its not perfect, it is a nice set up to them eventually move Gortat and roll into a more pure S4 down the road.

Trading away 3 firsts... sounds like the Webster deal we went all in on. Lots of risk there.

But no doubt, the Wall connection would have us in the running.

[hands11]

I'd like to get cousins, but definitely for the right price.

Gortat+Beal+picks for Cousins+McLemore seems decent....but honestly, I don't know if I really believe it would lead to better long term success. I still think this roster with addition with a stretch 4 and combo guard could really improve things, via a trickle down effect.

Cousins is a helluva talent, but I don't know if he is a championship player, no one on our roster is either, but if Cousins was really worth all that, I'd like to see it have manifested in some team success by now.

You don't think Wall is championship talent ?

I have a hard time seeing them moving Beal. Its not just his talent. I think its who he is. He has a lot of value to this franchise because of who Beal is as a person.

I value a player as a person ( whats between their ears as an entire package ) as much as a value raw basketball skill.

I think most of the foundation of this franchise establishing itself is tied up in who Wall and Beal are as a total package. Talent and Mind. Personally, I put Gortat in that grouping as well. I would prefer to keep those three together at least two more years. I also think Otto has the potential to be in that grouping.

[nuposse04]

I'd like to get cousins, but definitely for the right price.

Gortat+Beal+picks for Cousins+McLemore seems decent....but honestly, I don't know if I really believe it would lead to better long term success. I still think this roster with addition with a stretch 4 and combo guard could really improve things, via a trickle down effect.

Cousins is a helluva talent, but I don't know if he is a championship player, no one on our roster is either, but if Cousins was really worth all that, I'd like to see it have manifested in some team success by now.

You don't think Wall is championship talent ?

I have a hard time seeing them moving Beal. Its not just his talent. I think its who he is. He has a lot of value to this franchise because of who Beal is as a person. Mentally as a basketball player.

I value a player as a person ( whats between their ears as an entire package ) as much as a value raw basketball skill.

I think most of the foundation of this franchise establishing itself is tied up in who Wall and Beal are as a total package. Talent and Mind. Personally, I put Gortat in that grouping as well. I would prefer to keep those three together at least two more years. I also think Otto has the potential to be in that grouping.

Wall still has limitations which I believe he can improve upon. I believe some of that is due to roster construction, coaching and some intrinsic faults within him. The front office can improve 2 out of those 3.

I also don't think they'd move Beal unless it meant scoring Durant. I mention "championship talent" because a guy like Durant is worth mortgaging the future on...but is a guy like Cousins? Yes he is productive at an efficient rate. But he doesn't have a ridiculously high WS/48 or TS. His inflated PER seems like a product of simply taking more shots and just being a bit above average in making them. He has great Raw production, but for a franchise big, I question whether or not he will lead a team to finals victory. I personally like him as a player, and wouldn't mind having him, but I'm not so sure I honestly believe he is worth his perceived value among his hardcore fans.

The whole, liking Beal as a person thing, to me at least...is kind of meaningless. The only thing that can keep an athlete off my roster is they murder, rape, steal and brutalize other human beings. How kind of a person they are is something I could not care less about. I don't want a team full of choir boys either.

As to Otto, I wouldn't be surprised if he turns out to be a better player then Beal when it is all said and done. Thus why i'd try to hold on to him if it did come to trading for Cousins.

[noworriesinmd]

I think you do whatever you can to get cousins

[hands11]

I'd like to get cousins, but definitely for the right price.

Gortat+Beal+picks for Cousins+McLemore seems decent....but honestly, I don't know if I really believe it would lead to better long term success. I still think this roster with addition with a stretch 4 and combo guard could really improve things, via a trickle down effect.

Cousins is a helluva talent, but I don't know if he is a championship player, no one on our roster is either, but if Cousins was really worth all that, I'd like to see it have manifested in some team success by now.

You don't think Wall is championship talent ?

I have a hard time seeing them moving Beal. Its not just his talent. I think its who he is. He has a lot of value to this franchise because of who Beal is as a person. Mentally as a basketball player.

I value a player as a person ( whats between their ears as an entire package ) as much as a value raw basketball skill.

I think most of the foundation of this franchise establishing itself is tied up in who Wall and Beal are as a total package. Talent and Mind. Personally, I put Gortat in that grouping as well. I would prefer to keep those three together at least two more years. I also think Otto has the potential to be in that grouping.

Wall still has limitations which I believe he can improve upon. I believe some of that is due to roster construction, coaching and some intrinsic faults within him. The front office can improve 2 out of those 3.

I also don't think they'd move Beal unless it meant scoring Durant. I mention "championship talent" because a guy like Durant is worth mortgaging the future on...but is a guy like Cousins? Yes he is productive at an efficient rate. But he doesn't have a ridiculously high WS/48 or TS. His inflated PER seems like a product of simply taking more shots and just being a bit above average in making them. He has great Raw production, but for a franchise big, I question whether or not he will lead a team to finals victory. I personally like him as a player, and wouldn't mind having him, but I'm not so sure I honestly believe he is worth his perceived value among his hardcore fans.

The whole, liking Beal as a person thing, to me at least...is kind of meaningless. The only thing that can keep an athlete off my roster is they murder, rape, steal and brutalize other human beings. How kind of a person they are is something I could not care less about. I don't want a team full of choir boys either.

As to Otto, I wouldn't be surprised if he turns out to be a better player then Beal when it is all said and done. Thus why i'd try to hold on to him if it did come to trading for Cousins.

What you are describing when I say...who he is as a person in total... doesn't seem to be what I am describing. I tried to detail it. I have always struggled to come up with a word to describe what I am talking about. Its not that he is choir boy. Its the entire mental package. Maybe that the best I can do. "The entire mental package "

Different players have it in different ways. The main point is, NBA level basketball is much more then just putting together an assortment of skilled players. There is a huge mental element to the game and team building. All these guys are skilled. They are NBA players after all. They are some of if not the best players in the world. But as someone who has managed teams and put them together, one things is clear...you need the right combination of parts/skills/personalities/leaders/followers/mentally strong/dependable. Some creative. Some nail bangers. Its about the people as much as it is about their skills. You could give me an amazing programmer that goes off in the wrong direction to often and its ineffective. Specially if they are stubborn and don't take direction well. Sure, eventually you can replace them but that's the point. You want pieces that work together.

DET wasn't a team of choir boys. But they had the right combination of physical skills and mental packages that added up to... the whole is greater then the sum of the parts. That's what I'm getting at. Some call it chemistry. But that is made up of individuals. I'm trying to address the part of the individual that goes to that. Example. Kevin is a talented player. No doubt about that. What holds him back is what's between his ears, not his physical skills. And even if he improved that, he will never be the leader of a team. Its not who he is. Leadership and shouldering it is a skill. Decision making, specially when there is a lot at stack is a skill. Just like FT shooting.

Another example would be Gil. Amazing offensive talent but someone I didn't trust mentally to lead a franchise. Putting to many eggs in the Gil basket was an avoidable mistake. Would have been much better to trade him earlier for assets. We got him for nothings and could have cashed him. The warning signs where there. Now Wall. Totally different. I trust Wall with the franchise. Now that wasn't always the case. Early on I wondered if Wall would develop the right way. But he has. That much is clear.

Beal is one of those types. Or at least he has the potential to be one and seems to be on the right track. And its my belief that the franchise views him that way.

That's what I was getting at.

[payitforward]

hands11 gonna be hands11. Gooden at starter is a great idea until it's not. In which case it never was but he never said that or you misunderstood the point that was being made.

Either way this has been already discussed and you may want to read the past posts on this issue to get caught up.

Cute. Well not really. How about you stop with the BS. Posting the same childish lie over and over doesn't make it a truth.

As usual, people like you and TWG are twisted what my point was by taking a piece of it and overly magnifying it into something that doesn't represent my position. How about commenting on the post, not the poster. Or don't comment at all.

Your post contributed nothing to the debate about the team and was only a post promote a smear about me which say more about you then anything else. And you post is a lie but I guess you feel if you post it enough times it will stick. Clearly you are just trying to troll me. Which I doubt is what the mods want for the board. Actually they have started the opposite. Which you are well aware of.

I said move Nene and add a young piece(s) that are S4 type along with Gooden. I didn't say trade Nene and go into next season with Gooden as the only S4 and start him.

I listed a bunch of targets.

Who starts wasn't even mentioned. But whoever we add, I would expect them to play 25-30 mins. Who start is about line ups. Hell, Perkins started for OKC but he wasn't the one getting the most minutes. If you read something into what I wrote that wasn't there or I wasn't clear out it, then ask for me to clarify. Like I just did right here.

I think Dat interpreted "S4" to mean "starting power forward." But I'm pretty sure that by "S4", Hands meant "a PF who is a 3pt. threat" -- two different things.

[payitforward]

Wall is overrated compared to Cousins, who I think is underrated.

Attitude issues? He played on well Team USA after Wall and Beal got cut. He hasn't missed a game this season for disciplinary reasons. He's had consecutive triple doubles including assists (Great teammates pass the ball). He's had three straight games with more than 20 rebounds. (Rebounds require effort).

No. Some people repeat tired narratives because they are uninformed or determined to stay a hater. Cousins is an all star and a terrific player. People love Kevin Love and his team never sniffed playoffs.

Offer Nene, Pierce, this year's first and two future firsts. Keep Wall, Beal, and Porter. Keep Gortat.

Overnight the Wizards would be a 60-win team with that core.

Happy to get rid of Nene and to trade Pierce. But 3 first round draft choices? No thank you!

Nor do I think we'd be a 60 win team. Has nothing to do w/ his "attitude", but overall Cousins doesn't put up as good numbers as you suggest, CCJ.

The two key areas for numbers are scoring efficiency (not points scored alone, but points scored *efficiently*) and ball possession numbers (rebounding, especially on the offensive side*, minus turnovers, plus steals).

19 guys play C 30+ minutes per game. Where does he stand among them in these 2 areas?

Scoring Efficiency: only two of the 19 (Nerlens Noel & Noah) have a worse eFG%. In TS% he's a little better at 13th out of 19.

Ball Possession Numbers: Cousins is an excellent defensive rebounder, a meh offensive rebounder, and above all an absolute turnover machine. On average, the other 18 guys on the list turn the ball over 2.13 times per 40 minutes. Cousins does it 5 times. That's way more than twice as often as the other 18 Centers playing 30+ minutes a game. He's actually pretty good at steals, but the numbers are too small in that category to make a difference.

To understand the impact of this, lets compare total offensive rebounds plus steals minus turnovers for DeAndre Jordan and Cousins: Jordan is +5.3 on that combo. Cousins is +0.5. (Jordan also gets more defensive boards than Cousins).

A few other guys: Kanter is +4.4; Chandler is +4; Drummond is +6.3.

DeMarcus Cousins is incredibly gifted. But he doesn't play the game the right way. He likes to handle the ball, make dribble moves while he's away from the bucket, and shoot jump shots. He also fouls more than any of those other 18 guys.

[Sluggerface]

Cousins is overrated. You guys need to take the blinders off. He fouls at an obscene rate (I'm not talking about attitude issues that are overblown, he just consistently makes dumb plays that put himself in position to get fouled) He turns the ball over as much as Wall does, as a BIG. Overall his efficiency is just effing terrible.

Is he an all star? Yes. best center in the league? No.

Cousins+McLemore for Beal+Nene expiring+ one first is as far as I would go for Cousins.

[hands11]

Wall is overrated compared to Cousins, who I think is underrated.

Attitude issues? He played on well Team USA after Wall and Beal got cut. He hasn't missed a game this season for disciplinary reasons. He's had consecutive triple doubles including assists (Great teammates pass the ball). He's had three straight games with more than 20 rebounds. (Rebounds require effort).

No. Some people repeat tired narratives because they are uninformed or determined to stay a hater. Cousins is an all star and a terrific player. People love Kevin Love and his team never sniffed playoffs.

Offer Nene, Pierce, this year's first and two future firsts. Keep Wall, Beal, and Porter. Keep Gortat.

Overnight the Wizards would be a 60-win team with that core.

Happy to get rid of Nene and to trade Pierce. But 3 first round draft choices? No thank you!

Nor do I think we'd be a 60 win team. Has nothing to do w/ his "attitude", but overall Cousins doesn't put up as good numbers as you suggest, CCJ.

The two key areas for numbers are scoring efficiency (not points scored alone, but points scored *efficiently*) and ball possession numbers (rebounding, especially on the offensive side*, minus turnovers, plus steals).

19 guys play C 30+ minutes per game. Where does he stand among them in these 2 areas?

Scoring Efficiency: only two of the 19 (Nerlens Noel & Noah) have a worse eFG%. In TS% he's a little better at 13th out of 19.

Ball Possession Numbers: Cousins is an excellent defensive rebounder, a meh offensive rebounder, and above all an absolute turnover machine. On average, the other 18 guys on the list turn the ball over 2.13 times per 40 minutes. Cousins does it 5 times. That's way more than twice as often as the other 18 Centers playing 30+ minutes a game. He's actually pretty good at steals, but the numbers are too small in that category to make a difference.

To understand the impact of this, lets compare total offensive rebounds plus steals minus turnovers for DeAndre Jordan and Cousins: Jordan is +5.3 on that combo. Cousins is +0.5. (Jordan also gets more defensive boards than Cousins).

A few other guys: Kanter is +4.4; Chandler is +4; Drummond is +6.3.

DeMarcus Cousins is incredibly gifted. But he doesn't play the game the right way. He likes to handle the ball, make dribble moves while he's away from the bucket, and shoot jump shots. He also fouls more than any of those other 18 guys.

I think you have to come up with another piece to offer other then PP. PP isn't going to let us trade him to SAC. He has a PO.

Good data on Cousins PIFF. And that's the issue. Talented.. yes. playing efficiently or the right way...It doesn't appear so and it hasn't translated into wins.

Could he be molded into an efficient player with the right system and coach ?

That's the question.

I could see Cousins as a Shaq type only with us, not a Shaq vs Kobe thing. Cousins and Wall like each other. If Cousins was to get in line, it would most likely happen while paired with Wall. So that would be the vision of what he would be if he was here. Not so much what he has been on a mess up SAC team. So the data on his while useful, is backward looking as data always is. What we would need to evaluate and project is, what would he do if he was here.

Another questions is, how does it play out longer term. Is it, bring him here and have him with Gortat for two years and as Gortat fades he get traded and Cousins steps in ? That would at least get us a talented big in the right age range to stay productive with the younger core.. both now and for the future. Maybe we could check that box off.

By the time you might want to move Gortat, Cousins would be 26 and Gortat would be 33 with 12,782,609 $13,565,218 left on his contract and a 90M or up cap.

Short term it might not be the ideal fit. There would be overlap to some degree and we still wouldn't have the max minutes for a S4, BUT, it would be an upgrade to Nene being the PF regarding upside, youth, etc.

Cousins with Wall is a Cousins I'm not sure any other team would get. But its the Cousins we would get. That's important to remember. Its not a perfect fit, but I can see how it would work out longer term toward building a title team.

Or we just wait 2-3 more years and get him then. I think in the end he ends up here at some point.

[jivelikenice]

Outside of the GM/HC being replaced, any significant change starts at moving on from Nene/Pierce and getting younger. What could the Wizards realistically look at getting in return for Nene? The key would be not taking on significant '16 dollars but I'd have to imagine he's have value to a veteran team looking for front court depth.

[TGW]

Agree with PIF--Cousins doesn't play basketball the right way. He's one of the most undisciplined players I've ever seen with that much talent and size. Derrick Coleman 2.0.

[Induveca]

I think you do whatever you can to get cousins

Amen. Outside of Wall everyone is available in my mind.

If they take back Beal/Porter/pick for Cousins/filler you do it everyday of the week. Consider it the gods smiling on us for the Webber trade (who was also considered a basketcase).

[jivelikenice]

Ridiculous hypothetical but I'll toss it out there. Nick Young is on the block and I think the Lakers recognize he has no value and are trying to move on. If they're willing to take Martell's deal off our hands would you bite? Maybe they throw in a 2nd since Webster has less time on his deal or we make them take Blair also?

[rl25g]

Random thoughts and ideas for all that's going on today.

I really do think that Cousins paired with Wall would be amazing. However, I can see how keeping Wal, Beal, Porter and Gortat and investing in a stretch four while keeping our picks would be a better use of our assets.



If we were to do a trade centered around Beal, Gortat and Picks for Cousins, I'd look at Danny Green as a replacement at SG. In so many ways I see the Spurs as the Patriots of the NBA. Green can really get paid this off-season, say around 4 years, 40 million. What if the Spurs don't want to pay that much for him, but are willing to do a S&T. If Duncan retires, would they entertain the expiring contract of Nene to hold down the fort for a year, for an overpaid Green?



Lastly, Nick Young will apparently be on the trade block this summer. Would the Lakers budge at a Webster/future 2nd for Young. Webster has the non-guaranteed contract for the summer of 2016 so LA would be saving some money. for us we would have a 6th man type on the team.

[rl25g]

Ridiculous hypothetical but I'll toss it out there. Nick Young is on the block and I think the Lakers recognize he has no value and are trying to move on. If they're willing to take Martell's deal off our hands would you bite? Maybe they throw in a 2nd since Webster has less time on his deal or we make them take Blair also?

Just posted the same thoughts a few moments after you. I for one would love Nick back if all it took was Martell's contract. Would throw in a 2nd to make it happen.

They owe us one for Jordan Clarkson anyways

[fishercob]

Ridiculous hypothetical but I'll toss it out there. Nick Young is on the block and I think the Lakers recognize he has no value and are trying to move on. If they're willing to take Martell's deal off our hands would you bite? Maybe they throw in a 2nd since Webster has less time on his deal or we make them take Blair also?

Just posted the same thoughts a few moments after you. I for one would love Nick back if all it took was Martell's contract. Would throw in a 2nd to make it happen.

They owe us one for Jordan Clarkson anyways